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Leviticus 18: stimulation or copulation?

Jim

Nets of Wonder
NOTE: My question here is strictly about Leviticus 18, what precisely it prohibits, and not about any other scriptures.

In this thread, what I mean by “copulation” is the kind of physical joining between a man and a woman that sometimes produces children, or something that resembles that between two men or between a person and an animal.

I think that Leviticus 18 is strictly about copulation, regulating the use of human and animal penises, and apart from that not at all intended to prohibit two men or two women having fun together with sexual stimulation. I would like to know what reasons anyone might have for thinking that it’s about people having fun together with sexual stimulation.

My question is not about the morality of sexual stimulation outside of marriage. It’s strictly about what precisely is prohibited in Leviticus 18.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
In this thread, what I mean by “copulation” is the kind of physical joining between a man and a woman that sometimes produces children, or something that resembles that between two men or between a person and an animal.

I think that Leviticus 18 is strictly about copulation, regulating the use of human and animal penises, and apart from that not at all intended to prohibit two men or two women having fun together with sexual stimulation. I would like to know what reasons anyone might have for thinking that it’s about people having fun together with sexual stimulation.

My question is not about the morality of sexual stimulation outside of marriage. It’s strictly about what precisely is prohibited in Leviticus 18.
I think the issue is how one interprets what sex is about. For one, it is no more than just like animals coming together, for others it is a blood covenant and, I'm sure, you can find anything in between.

For me it is a blood covenant and thus has borders.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
I think the issue is how one interprets what sex is about. For one, it is no more than just like animals coming together, for others it is a blood covenant and, I'm sure, you can find anything in between.

For me it is a blood covenant and thus has borders.
My question is not “What is sex about?” My question is “What is Leviticus 18 about?” Do you think that Leviticus 18 is intended to be understood differently by different people, according to what the word “sex” means to them?
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
I added a note to the OP to clarify that my question is strictly about Leviticus 18, what precisely it prohibits, and not about any other scriptures.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
I think the issue is how one interprets what sex is about. For one, it is no more than just like animals coming together, for others it is a blood covenant and, I'm sure, you can find anything in between.

For me it is a blood covenant and thus has borders.
I might be getting it now. Some Bible versions say “have sexual relations with” instead of “lie with.” Is that what you’ve seen? Quotations from Leviticus 18 with the words “sexual relations,” which to you means anything that you call “sex”?
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
I see one possible explanation now. Some Bible translations say “have sexual relations” instead of “lie with.”

Definition of sexual relations
: SEXUAL INTERCOURSE
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexual relations

Definition of sexual intercourse
1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS
2 : intercourse (such as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexual intercourse

Maybe sometimes people misread “sexual relations” as “sexual relationships,” thinking of that as any relationship that includes sexual stimulation.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
NOTE: My question here is strictly about Leviticus 18, what precisely it prohibits, and not about any other scriptures.

In this thread, what I mean by “copulation” is the kind of physical joining between a man and a woman that sometimes produces children, or something that resembles that between two men or between a person and an animal.

I think that Leviticus 18 is strictly about copulation, regulating the use of human and animal penises, and apart from that not at all intended to prohibit two men or two women having fun together with sexual stimulation. I would like to know what reasons anyone might have for thinking that it’s about people having fun together with sexual stimulation.

My question is not about the morality of sexual stimulation outside of marriage. It’s strictly about what precisely is prohibited in Leviticus 18.

It is impossible to know for certain exactly who wrote Leviticus let alone what the author intended. If it is a record of what Yahweh revealed through Moses 3 1/2 thousand years ago as some believe it would be difficult to determine from the text alone whether stimulation was absolutely prohibited as was copulation. My guess would be the judges and priests at that time wouldn't have had any tolerance for sexual deviancy so a distinction between stimulation and copulation wouldn't have been considered or discussed. It would be interesting to talk to the Jews.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
NOTE: My question here is strictly about Leviticus 18, what precisely it prohibits, and not about any other scriptures.

In this thread, what I mean by “copulation” is the kind of physical joining between a man and a woman that sometimes produces children, or something that resembles that between two men or between a person and an animal.

I think that Leviticus 18 is strictly about copulation, regulating the use of human and animal penises, and apart from that not at all intended to prohibit two men or two women having fun together with sexual stimulation. I would like to know what reasons anyone might have for thinking that it’s about people having fun together with sexual stimulation.

My question is not about the morality of sexual stimulation outside of marriage. It’s strictly about what precisely is prohibited in Leviticus 18.
Well there are differences of opinion. Ten variation of Leviticus 18

Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter-in-law:

Do not have intercourse with your daughter-in-law

Don’t have sex with your daughter-in-law

You are not to have sexual intercourse with your daughter-in-law.

You must not have sexual contact with your daughter-in-law;

You are not to have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law;

Thou shalt not discover the shame of thy daughter-in-law:

You must not have physical relations with your daughter-in-law.

Do not take the clothes off your daughter-in-law.

Thou shalt not show the filthhood of thy son’s wife,
So there is no precise prohibition. "Sexual intercourse" being no more precise than "clothes off," or "shame," neither of which are hardly synonyms for "Sexual intercourse".

.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
One possibility I see is that the phrase that is translated as “uncover the nakedness,” was at some time in the past a well known idiom for coitus, and the phrase translated as “lie with” was a well known idiom for copulation.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I might be getting it now. Some Bible versions say “have sexual relations with” instead of “lie with.” Is that what you’ve seen? Quotations from Leviticus 18 with the words “sexual relations,” which to you means anything that you call “sex”?

Actually the Tanakh reveals that in many of the verses, it literally says to "uncover the nakedness" of one with whom you are not married. Now, I don't know what other intention one could have for uncovering the nakedness of someone to whom they were not married, but sex is usually the reason.

The word used in Hebrew is zenu·theh·khemʹ; Greek, por·neiʹan; and means....
  1. illicit sexual intercourse
    1. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.

    2. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18

    3. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12 (Strongs)
One possibility I see is that the phrase that is translated as “uncover the nakedness,” was at some time in the past a well known idiom for coitus, and the phrase translated as “lie with” was a well known idiom for copulation.

I think you are right. The words and phrases of the ancients were understood by them.....however you translate it, it means no sex without marriage.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
It looks to me like all the practices that are prohibited in Leviticus 18 are practices that were popular in societies known to Israel.
3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.
24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: 27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled; ) 28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.

29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Actually the Tanakh reveals that in many of the verses, it literally says to "uncover the nakedness" of one with whom you are not married. Now, I don't know what other intention one could have for uncovering the nakedness of someone to whom they were not married, but sex is usually the reason.

The word used in Hebrew is zenu·theh·khemʹ; Greek, por·neiʹan; and means....



    • illicit sexual intercourse
      1. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.

      2. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18

      3. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12 (Strongs)


I think you are right. The words and phrases of the ancients were understood by them.....however you translate it, it means no sex without marriage.
I don’t see you agreeing with me at all. My whole point is that the word “sex” is too ambiguous. The possibility that I’m suggesting is that the phrase that’s translated as “uncover the nakedness” was an idiom which always meant precisely “coitus,” and never anything else that anyone calls “sex.”
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I don’t see you agreeing with me at all. My whole point is that the word “sex” is too ambiguous. The possibility that I’m suggesting is that the phrase that’s translated as “uncover the nakedness” was an idiom which always meant precisely “coitus,” and never anything else that anyone calls “sex.”

Well, the word often rendered fornication is "porneia" from which we derive the word "pornography". If one watches pornography, is one engaging in sexual intercourse? I think you are trying to separate intercourse from other sexual practices as if anything other than intercourse is OK with God. It isn't. If you "uncover someone's nakedness", it usually leads to intercourse after foreplay. Is the foreplay therefore less serious than what comes next? Its the intent that is wrong. You are not to uncover nakedness if the person is not legally married to you.

If you want excuses you will find them, but sex is not just for fun. It has a more noble purpose....which is why it is only for married people. You need a license to practice it, if you are serious about keeping to God's moral standards.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
I’ll try to clarify some more the possibility that I’m proposing. I’m suggesting that the phrase translated as “uncover the nakedness” could have been a well known idiom that always meant precisely the kind of joining between a man and a woman that sometimes produces children, which in this thread I’m calling “coitus,” and never meant anything else that people call “sex”; and the phrase translated as “lie with” could have been a well known idiom that always meant that or something closely resembling it between two men or between a person and an animal, which in this thread I’m calling “copulation,” and never meant anything else that people call “sex.”

i’m suggesting that the prohibitions in Leviticus 18 are designed only to regulate the use of penises, and not at all to prohibit two men or two women from having fun together with sexual stimulation. I’m not arguing here that there’s nothing wrong with sexual stimulation outside of marriage between a man and a woman. I’m suggesting that apart from regulating the use of penises, Leviticus 18 has nothing whatsoever to do with that issue.

I’m also suggesting that all the practices prohibited in Leviticus 18 are practices that were popular in societies that were known to Israel, and that Leviticus 18:22 is about a cultural institution called pederasty, which was practiced mostly or possibly only by men who today would be called straight or bi.
 
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Jim

Nets of Wonder
Well, the word often rendered fornication is "porneia" from which we derive the word "pornography". If one watches pornography, is one engaging in sexual intercourse? I think you are trying to separate intercourse from other sexual practices as if anything other than intercourse is OK with God. It isn't. If you "uncover someone's nakedness", it usually leads to intercourse after foreplay. Is the foreplay therefore less serious than what comes next? Its the intent that is wrong. You are not to uncover nakedness if the person is not legally married to you.

If you want excuses you will find them, but sex is not just for fun. It has a more noble purpose....which is why it is only for married people. You need a license to practice it, if you are serious about keeping to God's moral standards.
I just wanted it to be clear that I’m not agreeing with your view of what is prohibited in Leviticus 18.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Well, the word often rendered fornication is "porneia" from which we derive the word "pornography". If one watches pornography, is one engaging in sexual intercourse? I think you are trying to separate intercourse from other sexual practices as if anything other than intercourse is OK with God. It isn't. If you "uncover someone's nakedness", it usually leads to intercourse after foreplay. Is the foreplay therefore less serious than what comes next? Its the intent that is wrong. You are not to uncover nakedness if the person is not legally married to you.
See this post: Additions to the prohibitions in Leviticus 18?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
My question is not “What is sex about?” My question is “What is Leviticus 18 about?” Do you think that Leviticus 18 is intended to be understood differently by different people, according to what the word “sex” means to them?

In light of Leviticus 18, I'm not sure how one would understand it differently by other people without twisting what it says.

Whether or not one accepts that Leviticus 18 is for them, is historically understood that it is not since they violate its precepts..
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I’ll try to clarify some more the possibility that I’m proposing. I’m suggesting that the phrase translated as “uncover the nakedness” could have been a well known idiom that always meant precisely the kind of joining between a man and a woman that sometimes produces children, which in this thread I’m calling “coitus,” and never meant anything else that people call “sex”; and the phrase translated as “lie with” could have been a well known idiom that always meant that or something closely resembling it between two men or between a person and an animal, which in this thread I’m calling “copulation,” and never meant anything else that people call “sex.”

"as Jarchi observes, it is expressed in the plural number, "do not ye approach", to caution both male and female; and it is also understood by the Talmudists F23of Gentiles as well as Israelites, for they ask, what is the meaning of the phrase "a man, a man?" the design of it is, they say, to comprehend the Gentiles, who are equally cautioned against incests as the Israelites; and indeed the inhabitants of the land of Canaan are said to defile the land with the incests and other abominations hereafter mentioned, and for which they were driven out of it: now when man and woman are forbidden to "approach" to those of the same flesh and blood with them, the sense is not that they may not come into each other's company, or make use of any civil or friendly salutations, or have a free and familiar conversation with each other, provided that modesty and chastity be preserved; but they are not so to draw near as to lie with, or have carnal knowledge of one another, in which sense the phrase is used, ( Genesis 20:4 ) ( Isaiah 8:3 ) ( Ezekiel 18:6 ) ; or to tempt to it or solicit it, and as it follows, which explains the meaning of it, to uncover [their] nakedness;
that is, those parts, which, by a contrary way of speaking, are so called, which should never be naked or exposed to view; but should be always covered, as nature teaches to do, and as our first parents did, when they perceived themselves naked, and were ashamed, ( Genesis 3:7 Genesis 3:10 )" John Gill (emphasis mine)


Apparently it is both copulation as well as just being naked and anything in between.
 
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Jim

Nets of Wonder
In light of Leviticus 18, I'm not sure how one would understand it differently by other people without twisting what it says.

Whether or not one accepts that Leviticus 18 is for them, is historically understood that it is not since they violate its precepts..
After I asked you that question, I thought that maybe you’ve been using a translation that says “sexual relations,” and equating that with sexual relationships.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...It’s strictly about what precisely is prohibited in Leviticus 18.

I think it means, no coitus between the persons mentioned in Leviticus 18:7-20. And Leviticus 18: 22 means no anal sex. And Leviticus 18:23 means that same things with animals is also not accepted.
 
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