"One instant I may speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to uproot and to demolish and to destroy. And when that nation repents of its evil for which I spoke concerning it, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do to it. And at one instant I may speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant, And it will do what is evil in My eyes, not to hearken to My voice, I will repent of the good I said to benefit it." (Jeremiah 18:7-10) - while it seems that God will also change His mind about good things, one of the commentaries points out that about the promise of good the term "said" is used - meaning the saying of the good will be repealed but not the thought of doing good - which means that God still intends to bring about the good, but only after using bad to "reboot" the sinning nation.
"One instant I may speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to uproot and to demolish and to destroy. And when that nation repents of its evil for which I spoke concerning it, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do to it. And at one instant I may speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant, And it will do what is evil in My eyes, not to hearken to My voice, I will repent of the good I said to benefit it." (Jeremiah 18:7-10) - while it seems that God will also change His mind about good things, one of the commentaries points out that about the promise of good the term "said" is used - meaning the saying of the good will be repealed but not the thought of doing good - which means that God still intends to bring about the good, but only after using bad to "reboot" the sinning nation.
I thought I remembered some verses for this but can't find them at the moment.
so based on those verses, and specially the part I bolded, it does not seem to me contradictory, with Bible, if God promises a Messiah to come and build a new kingdom in east and west, and to bring peace but, if the Messiah comes according to Will of God, He faces evilness and prosecution, God changes His mind about what He had promised and posponds it to a future time. In this case, I would not reject Jesus only on the basis that east and west was not conquered or promise of peace was not fulfilled, because if He is really the Messiah of the Jews, God still could change His mind about fulfilling the good things He promised to come with Messiah.
Ok, it is not directly saying that, but, since knowledge of future events must come from the All-knowing God, I conclude that this ability is given to a false prophet by God. After all, God is Him who has created all and in this case, God is making it clear that the purpose is to test you if you love the Lord or not!
God no longer accepts the Jewish way of atonement sacrifice with the removing of their Temple in AD70, with Daniel's prophecy said by Jesus on how the abomination of desolation occurred.
Ok, it is not directly saying that, but, since knowledge of future events must come from the All-knowing God, I conclude that this ability is given to a false prophet by God. After all, God is Him who has created all and in this case, God is making it clear that the purpose is to test you if you love the Lord or not!
Okay, so you are going beyond the things written, therefore creating your own ideas about what God does, where the Bible does not say he does.
People do that all the time, but I don't consider that a good thing, because, where does one stop at making the Bible say what we want it to say, rather than what it actually says?
The Bible does say this...
(Jeremiah 14:14-16) 14 Jehovah then said to me: “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or commanded them or spoken to them. A lying vision and a worthless divination and the deceit of their own heart is what they are prophesying to you. 15 Therefore this is what Jehovah says concerning the prophets who are prophesying in my name, though I did not send them, and who say that no sword or famine will occur in this land: ‘By sword and by famine those prophets will perish. 16 And the people to whom they are prophesying will be cast out into the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword, with no one to bury them - them, their wives, their sons, or their daughters - for I will pour out on them the calamity they deserve.’
So, indeed there were prophets, but they were false - not sent by God, nor given power by him to do anything. They said and did their own thing. That would be similar to what you are doing, wouldn't it?
How about reasoning that they were indeed sent... by the Devil, to speak his words?
However, if one somehow can make the chief angel in opposition to God, an analogy, rather than a real entity, then I think they could probably find a way to fit any idea to the Bible.
God no longer accepts the Jewish way of atonement sacrifice with the removing of their Temple in AD70, with Daniel's prophecy said by Jesus on how the abomination of desolation occurred.
Okay, so you are going beyond the things written, therefore creating your own ideas about what God does, where the Bible does not say he does.
People do that all the time, but I don't consider that a good thing, because, where does one stop at making the Bible say what we want it to say, rather than what it actually says?
The Bible does say this...
(Jeremiah 14:14-16) 14 Jehovah then said to me: “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or commanded them or spoken to them. A lying vision and a worthless divination and the deceit of their own heart is what they are prophesying to you. 15 Therefore this is what Jehovah says concerning the prophets who are prophesying in my name, though I did not send them, and who say that no sword or famine will occur in this land: ‘By sword and by famine those prophets will perish. 16 And the people to whom they are prophesying will be cast out into the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword, with no one to bury them - them, their wives, their sons, or their daughters - for I will pour out on them the calamity they deserve.’
So, indeed there were prophets, but they were false - not sent by God, nor given power by him to do anything. They said and did their own thing. That would be similar to what you are doing, wouldn't it?
How about reasoning that they were indeed sent... by the Devil, to speak his words?
However, if one somehow can make the chief angel in opposition to God, an analogy, rather than a real entity, then I think they could probably find a way to fit any idea to the Bible.
Even Satan or devil who is the source of evil is created by God, isn't it?
But it is irrelevant to our discussion, if God is given power to the false prophet or evil does. The verse is saying, God wants to test you, so, it means this is through His will. The verse is not saying evil gives this power to the false prophet, so, are you adding this yourself?. Are you making it the way you want it to be?.
. The point is, according to the Bible, even false prophets can proclaim a sign, such as promising to do a wonder or miracle, and actually perform it. Then, to put trust in someone simply because he showed you miracles is not seemly. Is it? Even Jesus Himself told you, to know a Prophet, look at his fruits. By their fruits you can know them. Jesus did not ask you to look at their miracle, by their miracle you can know them. Jesus in fact, rejected their request, when they asked Him to do miracle for them, yes?
What is a messianic prophecy? Do you mean coming of a messiah, or coming of a messiah and fulfilling all the good promises which is supposed to come with him? I can agree that when God promises a Messiah He does not change this promise. But on the other hand, humanity needs to obey God. It has two sides.
God fulfills His promise, and sends His Messiah. But when Messsiah comes, the people disobey him, and even plot against him to kill him. Now, God has fulfilled His promise, but when people transgress, God can change His mind in bringing all good things that was to come with Messiah. I cannot see any reason God cannot change His mind. Moreover, a Messiah would not miraculously bring peace. He can bring good guidance and leadership, but when people disobey, there is nothing more can be done. God does not force people. I can see the verse you quoted is applicable to messianic promises as well. ....We can agree to disagree.
Even Satan or devil who is the source of evil is created by God, isn't it?
But it is irrelevant to our discussion, if God is given power to the false prophet or evil does. The verse is saying, God wants to test you, so, it means this is through His will. The verse is not saying evil gives this power to the false prophet, so, are you adding this yourself?. Are you making it the way you want it to be?.
. The point is, according to the Bible, even false prophets can proclaim a sign, such as promising to do a wonder or miracle, and actually perform it. Then, to put trust in someone simply because he showed you miracles is not seemly. Is it? Even Jesus Himself told you, to know a Prophet, look at his fruits. By their fruits you can know them. Jesus did not ask you to look at their miracle, by their miracle you can know them. Jesus in fact, rejected their request, when they asked Him to do miracle for them, yes?
I have never read in the Bible that God created the Devil.
Jesus said that one did not remain in the truth, but became what he is, so the only one who created the Devil, is he himself. John 8:44
God created angels. Some rebelled, including the one who became Devil, and Satan. Revelation 12:9
However, that's a different topic. Not what I wanted you to focus on.
The point I was focused on is, where one applies their own ideas to the Bible, as though it is what the Bible says, whereas the Bible didn't say it.
You admitted the Bible did not say, God gives power to false prophets, to perform miracles.
If God allows a false prophet to prophecy to his people - test or no test, or to proclaim a sign, or anything at all, it is not God that told that prophet to do so. God has not sent the prophet. Nor has God told the prophet what to say. Nor has God empowered the prophet.
So anything contrary, is one's idea. That is the point, isn't it?
What are you really trying to say?
I have never read in the Bible that God created the Devil.
Jesus said that one did not remain in the truth, but became what he is, so the only one who created the Devil, is he himself. John 8:44
God created angels. Some rebelled, including the one who became Devil, and Satan. Revelation 12:9
However, that's a different topic. Not what I wanted you to focus on.
The point I was focused on is, where one applies their own ideas to the Bible, as though it is what the Bible says, whereas the Bible didn't say it.
You admitted the Bible did not say, God gives power to false prophets, to perform miracles.
If God allows a false prophet to prophecy to his people - test or no test, or to proclaim a sign, or anything at all, it is not God that told that prophet to do so. God has not sent the prophet. Nor has God told the prophet what to say. Nor has God empowered the prophet.
So anything contrary, is one's idea. That is the point, isn't it?
What are you really trying to say?
What did Jesus do to prove to the Jews, He was their Messiah? That is the question. You seem to suggest He did miracles to prove it. I have shown you even a false prophet can do miracles. Jesus rejected doing miracles when they requested, and told them only a adulterer generation asks for miracle. So, you have not yet answered what Jesus did to prove it that He was their Messiah. Let's focus on this.
God no longer accepts the Jewish way of atonement sacrifice with the removing of their Temple in AD70, with Daniel's prophecy said by Jesus on how the abomination of desolation occurred.
What did Jesus do to prove to the Jews, He was their Messiah? That is the question. You seem to suggest He did miracles to prove it. I have shown you even a false prophet can do miracles. Jesus rejected doing miracles when they requested, and told them only a adulterer generation asks for miracle. So, you have not yet answered what Jesus did to prove it that He was their Messiah. Let's focus on this.
I did cover this.
I will highlight the parts you may not have noted. Post #21 Jesus' works were more powerful, and went beyond what diviners practiced (i.e. opening the eyes of the know blind; restoring withered hands; healing paralyzed; raising the dead). Similar to when Moses went beyond the magic arts of Pharaoh's priests.
Since practicing these arts was common, it was not something, everyone living at that time would have concluded without a doubt, to be proof of a Godsend. Those who put all the facts together - Messiah arriving on time, born in the right place, speaking like no other, spearheading a ministry, taking up from where John the Baptist left of, and taught as much,etc., etc.
It was not just about seeing with physical eyes. Atheist do that. It was about seeing with a heart of discernment, wisdom and understanding.
So to summarize, there were things Jesus did, which were known by the Jews, to be possible only by those God empowered.
Persons could see these, and not believe, claiming that anyone can do them, but that would not be Jesus' concern, because it was a heart issue, not a sight issue (Matthew 13:10-17), and that is exactly why he did not "put on a show" for those who were just looking for such, but did not have the right heart condition.
Jesus knew the heart of men, and knew who followed him for food (John 6), or just to have something to entertain them, and talk about.
However, it is clear from the scriptures, that Jesus' miracles were one clear sign... note... to those Jews who were sincerely looking for the Messiah.
(Matthew 11:2-6) 2 But John, having heard in jail about the works of the Christ, sent his disciples 3 to ask him: “Are you the Coming One, or are we to expect a different one?”4 In reply Jesus said to them: “Go and report to John what you are hearing and seeing:5The blind are now seeing and the lame are walking, the lepers are being cleansed and the deaf are hearing, the dead are being raised up and the poor are being told the good news.6 Happy is the one who finds no cause for stumbling in me.”
We can, but again, God never repealed His promises. That's one of the core differences between Judaism and other Abrahamic religions: They claim God changed His mind, we claim: No He didn't, otherwise we would've been informed.
I did cover this.
I will highlight the parts you may not have noted. Post #21 Jesus' works were more powerful, and went beyond what diviners practiced (i.e. opening the eyes of the know blind; restoring withered hands; healing paralyzed; raising the dead). Similar to when Moses went beyond the magic arts of Pharaoh's priests.
Since practicing these arts was common, it was not something, everyone living at that time would have concluded without a doubt, to be proof of a Godsend. Those who put all the facts together - Messiah arriving on time, born in the right place, speaking like no other, spearheading a ministry, taking up from where John the Baptist left of, and taught as much,etc., etc.
It was not just about seeing with physical eyes. Atheist do that. It was about seeing with a heart of discernment, wisdom and understanding.
So to summarize, there were things Jesus did, which were known by the Jews, to be possible only by those God empowered.
Persons could see these, and not believe, claiming that anyone can do them, but that would not be Jesus' concern, because it was a heart issue, not a sight issue (Matthew 13:10-17), and that is exactly why he did not "put on a show" for those who were just looking for such, but did not have the right heart condition.
Jesus knew the heart of men, and knew who followed him for food (John 6), or just to have something to entertain them, and talk about.
However, it is clear from the scriptures, that Jesus' miracles were one clear sign... note... to those Jews who were sincerely looking for the Messiah.
(Matthew 11:2-6) 2 But John, having heard in jail about the works of the Christ, sent his disciples 3 to ask him: “Are you the Coming One, or are we to expect a different one?”4 In reply Jesus said to them: “Go and report to John what you are hearing and seeing:5The blind are now seeing and the lame are walking, the lepers are being cleansed and the deaf are hearing, the dead are being raised up and the poor are being told the good news.6 Happy is the one who finds no cause for stumbling in me.”
No, it is not clear, because Jesus had said, no miracles will be given to that Generation, and now, in other places of bible, you are showing that He did show many miracles to that generation. Seems to me contredictory statements. Do you see?
Also, if Jesus did all those wonderful miracles, why didnt the Jews believe Him? What did the Jews say, after He showed them miracles?
And when Jesus was resurrected why didnt He show Himself to those pharisees or leaders who had plotted and got Him crucified to prove to them He is really son of God?
and earlier when some of the Jews asked Him to show miracles, He rejected. Again another contradiction. Do you see? Isn't it confusing to you?
So far I have not seen how you reconcile these contradictions.
God no longer accepts the Jewish way of atonement sacrifice with the removing of their Temple in AD70, with Daniel's prophecy said by Jesus on how the abomination of desolation occurred.
The abomination of desolation referred to by Daniel was during the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. It means depopulation.
In 168 BC, the Greek king Antiochus IV Epiphanes invaded Jerusalem and captured the city. He marched into the Jewish temple, erected a statue of the Greek god Zeus, and sacrificed a pig on the altar of incense.
No, it is not clear, because Jesus had said, no miracles will be given to that Generation, and now, in other places of bible, you are showing that He did show many miracles to that generation. Seems to me contredictory statements. Do you see?
No. I don't see that.
However, I could understand how those who don't understand the Bible - for one reason or other - might see that.
Try isolating all the texts where Jesus said these things, and read the context. Then ask yourself, on these occasions, whom is Jesus referring to, when he says, "this generation"?
He is referring to the Jewish system at the time, not the Jews as individuals. Isn't that so.
Jesus never said he would not perform miracles, which that generation would see, and did see. He said this... "no sign will be given to this generation."
(Mark 8:11, 12) 11 Here the Pharisees came and started disputing with him, demanding from him a sign from heaven, to put him to the test. 12 So he sighed deeply in his spirit and said: “Why does this generation seek a sign? Truly I say, no sign will be given to this generation.”
(John 6:30) Then they said to him: “What are you performing as a sign, so that we may see it and believe you? What work are you doing?
This is completely different to works, which Jesus was doing, for all to see (Jesus was not operating under demands, and commands of people. He glorified his father, by his works. He was not a glory seeker).
The Scribes and Pharisees saw the works Jesus did, but they scoffed.
They were asking Jesus to "show off" - to provide a special sign, as the scriptures say, to "put him to the test". Sort of like when the Devil tempted him to turn stones into bread, and throw himself off the temple.
Persons really had no excuse for not believing Jesus works were of divine origin.
(Matthew 11:20-24) 20 Then he began to reproach the cities in which most of his powerful works had taken place, for they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! because if the powerful works that took place in you had taken place in Tyre and Siʹdon, they would long ago have repented in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more endurable for Tyre and Siʹdon on Judgment Day than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you perhaps be exalted to heaven? Down to the Grave you will come; because if the powerful works that took place in you had taken place in Sodʹom, it would have remained until this very day. 24 But I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom on Judgment Day than for you.”
Those wicked Jewish leaders, did not believe, not because they couldn't see - literally (). The wicked hearts did not allow them to see.
(Matthew 13:54, 55) 54 ...“Where did this man get this wisdom and these powerful works? 55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
(Mark 6:2) And why should this wisdom have been given to him, and such powerful works be performed through his hands?
(Matthew 9:34) But the Pharisees were saying: “It is by the ruler of the demons that he expels the demons.”
They claimed they needed more evidence - a clear sign from heaven. Reminds me of skeptics today.
Jesus was not going to show off, for people, whom he knew were faithless - not then, nor now.
(Matthew 13:58) And he did not perform many powerful works there on account of their lack of faith.
No sign would be given them... except the sign of Jonah - his death and resurrection.
And when Jesus was resurrected why didnt He show Himself to those pharisees or leaders who had plotted and got Him crucified to prove to them He is really son of God?
You now raised them. I can't reconcile something if I don't know what someone claims is irreconcilable.
(Luke 11:50, 51) 50 so that the blood of all the prophets spilled from the founding of the world may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel down to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah, who was killed between the altar and the house.’ Yes, I tell you, it will be charged against this generation.
(Luke 17:25) . . .First, however, he must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by this generation.
