dad
Undefeated
Your denial based on nothing is noted.
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Genesis Account of Creation: Firmament
- Thread starter osgart
- Start date
dad
Undefeated
You have no power or ability to check. Why would I doubt Scripture for no reason?
I don't know what the hard drives of heaven are like. The records mentioned have to do with people on earth though.
Maybe for our benefit.
Or people copy spiritual realities.
Why question Him? Usually, we think of a throne as a place where a king sits to judge or perform official duties. That doesn't mean He is glued to it forever.
No. The Sabbath was for man.
Hey, if you had an eternal body might you not rest sometime, not because you need it, but because it was pleasant? What you think we all need to run around 24/7?
Maybe for us.
Hey, if you could fly across the universe in a moment of time, might you not also sometimes like to walk in a park, swim, or fly in a group in a spaceship, chariot, or whatever you felt like making fly?
Well, why not? It's fun!
Other way round.
gnostic
The Lost One
There are never any description of Heaven, in Genesis, not of throne or chariot, until you get supposed prophets, like Ezekiel living in time of kings and emperors, while living in Exile at Babylon, having visions of what kingdom of god would be like.
Sorry, but monarchy existed in Egypt since the Chalcolithic period in 2nd half of the 4th millennium BCE (meaning from 3400 to 3050 BCE). Around this time, Egypt was divided into two, so there were essentially two kingdoms:
- the northern kingdom, or Lower Egypt (Ta-Mehew)
- the southern kingdom, or Upper Egypt (Ta-Sheme'aw)
Neither Egypt, nor Mizraim, were named used by ancient Egyptians prior to the Iron Age; these names were of respective Greek and Hebrew origins. Mizraim may have its root in Akkadian origin. You have to remember that we don’t see Hebrew alphabet until after 1000 BCE.
You don’t see any writing relating to Bible narratives until 7th century BCE and later, eg the 6th Babylonian Exile and the start of the Second Temple period. The 6th and 5th centuries BCE, is where Hebrew literature began to really flourish, but not much survive around this time.
By the 7th century BCE, with the presence of Neo-Assyrians Judaism have already began to pick up foreign cultures and foreign religious ideas. And later still from the Neo-Babylonians and the Persians in the 6th century BCE, and the Greeks from the 3rd century onward.
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dad
Undefeated
And what did the picture words mean before the Bronze age? Ha.
Who cares what pagan Egyptians may have used? God was alive at the time and speaking words to His people. Those are the words that count.
Finally, God existed before there was any Egypt. Egypt came after Babel.
Bear Wild
Well-Known Member
Your arguments are sound, information accurate, your knowledge is impressive but you are arguing against irrationality itself. Like Alice in wonderland dads responses all imaginary with upside down reversed antilogic. The nice thing is that I still learn from your posts. Thanks.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Yes scientific beliefs are well based all supernatural beliefs are based on feelings, emotions and fictional stories that have no evidence.
Right now the best evidence combined suggests the laws of physics are the same throughout the universe. Time running "different" needs a supporting theory to even suggest it. You do not have any supporting theory except wishful thinking so the laws of physics might support your beliefs in fairy tales. This "different time" theory has been one big fail on your part.
No that's an ad-hoc idea you are putting forward that has no evidence. The actual finding is that the protons and electrons in a distant quasar has the same ratio as they would here on Earth. What this does is lend evidence that physics is operating the same in the entire universe.
Your idea of time "not existing" in space has no evidence or theory to even support the idea. Beyond that you can't even explain why this would cause the measurement to appear the same on Earth as it is near the quasar?
You just don't like the results of the findings and are throwing out "but there is no time there?...." at it as if that solves anything. It doesn't even make sense? Even if time were slower the laws still are the same?
Science has many lines of reasoning (which I have covered) that suggests time works the same everywhere. You have zero evidence that time would work differently in different locations of the universe. So without any scientific theory you have nothing.
You can make up any unsupported fiction you want but this line of debate is dead. You have given no evidence or reasons except that the laws of physics being universal makes you all butt-hurt so you have to deny it. Cool, do that. You've demonstrated nothing or provided any useful evidence to your point.
Uh oh....did you just say we have no idea what time is? This whole time you have been insisting that you know that time operated differently in other parts of the universe, as if YOU know what time is and how it behaves??
See how hypocritical this all is? You say you have definitive facts about time that no one in science has then say we do not know what time is?
Completely contradictory statements. It shows you do not care about actual debates or truth.
More hypocrite activity here. You are making a claim about time and offering no supporting evidence. Then turn around and expect evidence from others. While there are lines of evidence we have gone over that point to the laws of physics being the same throughout the universe there is no evidence to suggest they change. This is a huge loss for you and I'm surprised someone would want to even try arguing something so easily defeated?
You are correct that science is not involved in evidence for religion because there is no scientific evidence. Belief in Zeus and other god-like beings have no evidence except personal feelings.
joelr
Well-Known Member
We have seen photons in space? We have measured microwave photons from the big bang that are exactly where they should be and at the correct temp. according to the idea that electromagnetism works the same everywhere? Among many other lines of evidence. Radio signals from deep space probes take exactly the correct amount of time predicted by light speed to reach Earth? Yes, radio waves are light.
We have seen supernova explosions and the brightness last as long as expected. Also time does not pass for photons so your idea that they experience different time is contrary to modern physics which has proven unbelievably accurate.
There is no time velocity at light speed. Your ad-hoc idea designed to make you feel better about your myths is a huge fail. At light speed all velocity is in the space dimension, none in the time dimension. There is no theory, hypothesis or even idea that this could possibly change and it would violate several laws of physics.
So to even propose it you need a scientific theory to even consider why it could be possible. You are not even wrong. I would move on to another line of debate rather than continuously demonstrating severe lack of understanding of scientific fundamentals. It might sound clever to you but you may as well just say "Jesus changes time in deep space, he floats around and makes time work different in deep space so the bible can be more realistic".
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
dad, you are breaking the Ninth Commandment again. You have been refuted a thousand times. You have such a poor understanding of the sciences, logic, and evidence that I had to from Rule Number One with you in mind. Just think what sort of discussions you could have if you actually understood the concept of evidence. It won't take long to learn if you try.
joelr
Well-Known Member
What you can't seem to understand is the simple concept of Minkowski 4 vector.
Objects in spacetime move at one speed - light speed (when combined). When an object increases it's velocity in the space dimensions it slows down in time. Eventually at light speed the object will have zero movement in the time vector.
So photons experience zero time.
I will post some quotes to try to break through this mental barrier you seem to have on this known fact?
https://phys.org/news/2014-05-does-light-experience-time.html
Does light experience time?
Have you ever noticed that time flies when you're having fun? Well, not for light. In fact, photons don't experience any time at all. Here's a mind-bending concept that should shatter your brain into pieces.
As you might know, I co-host Astronomy Cast, and get to pick the brain of the brilliant astrophysicist Dr. Pamela Gay every week about whatever crazy thing I think of in the shower. We were talking about photons one week and she dropped a bombshell on my brain. Photons do not experience time. [SNARK: Are you worried they might get bored?]
Just think about that idea. From the perspective of a photon, there is no such thing as time. It's emitted, and might exist for hundreds of trillions of years, but for the photon, there's zero time elapsed between when it's emitted and when it's absorbed again. It doesn't experience distance either. [SNARK: Clearly, it didn't need to borrow my copy of GQ for the trip.]
Since photons can't think, we don't have to worry too much about their existential horror of experiencing neither time nor distance, but it tells us so much about how they're linked together. Through his Theory of Relativity, Einstein helped us understand how time and distance are connected.
Let's do a quick review. If we want to travel to some distant point in space, and we travel faster and faster, approaching the speed of light our clocks slow down relative to an observer back on Earth. And yet, we reach our destination more quickly than we would expect. Sure, our mass goes up and there are enormous amounts of energy required, but for this example, we'll just ignore all that.
If you could travel at a constant acceleration of 1 g, you could cross billions of light years in a single human generation. Of course, your friends back home would have experienced billions of years in your absence, but much like the mass increase and energy required, we won't worry about them.
The closer you get to light speed, the less time you experience and the shorter a distance you experience. You may recall that these numbers begin to approach zero. According to relativity, mass can never move through the Universe at light speed. Mass will increase to infinity, and the amount of energy required to move it any faster will also be infinite. But for light itself, which is already moving at light speed… You guessed it, the photons reach zero distance and zero time.
Photons can take hundreds of thousands of years to travel from the core of the Sun until they reach the surface and fly off into space. And yet, that final journey, that could take it billions of light years across space, was no different from jumping from atom to atom.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Your god was a minor deity who had a goddess girlfriend and was promoted to one above all gods. Total myth.
Yahweh - Wikipedia
"At that time the Israelites worshipped Yahweh alongside a variety of Canaanite gods and goddesses, including El, Asherah and Baal,[7] but in time El and Yahweh became conflated,[8] El-linked epithets such as El Shaddai came to be applied to Yahweh alone,[9] and other gods and goddesses such as Baal and Asherah were absorbed into the Yahwistic religion.[10] From the 9th into the 6th centuries BCE the Yahwistic religion separated itself from its Canaanite heritage as Yahweh became the main god of the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) and of Judah,[11] and over time the royal court and Temple in Jerusalem promoted Yahweh as the god of the entire cosmos, possessing all the positive qualities previously attributed to the other gods and goddesses.[12][13] By the end of the Babylonian captivity (6th century BCE), the very existence of foreign gods was denied, and Yahweh was proclaimed as the creator of the cosmos and the one true God of all the world.[13
The current scholarly consensus is that Yahweh was originally a "divine warrior from the southern region associated with [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Seir']Seir, Edom, Paran and Teman"[/URL]
Israel emerges into the historical record in the last decades of the 13th century BCE, at the very end of the [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age']Late Bronze Age when the Canaanite city-state system was ending,[32] and the milieu from which Israelite religion emerged was accordingly Canaanite.[33] El, "the kind, the compassionate", "the creator of creatures", was the chief of the Canaanite gods,[34] and he, not Yahweh, was the original "God of Israel"—the word "Israel" is based on the name El rather than Yahweh.[35] He lived in a tent on a mountain from whose base originated all the fresh waters of the world, with the goddess Asherah as his consort.[34][36]
This pair made up the top tier of the Canaanite pantheon[/URL]
The Israelites initially worshipped Yahweh alongside a variety of Canaanite gods and goddesses, including El, Asherah and Baal.[URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh#cite_note-FOOTNOTESmith20027-8'][7] In the period of the Judges and the first half of the monarchy, El and Yahweh became conflated in a process of religious syncretism.[8] As a result, 'el (Hebrew: אל) became a generic term meaning "god", as opposed to the name of a worshipped deity, and epithets such as El Shaddai came to be applied to Yahweh alone, diminishing the worship of El and strengthening the position of Yahweh.[9] Features of Baal, El, and Asherah were absorbed into the Yahwistic religion, Asherah possibly becoming embodied in the feminine aspects of the Shekinah or divine presence, and Baal's nature as a storm and weather god becoming assimilated into Yahweh's own identification with the storm.[10] In the next stage the Yahwistic religion separated itself from its Canaanite heritage, first by rejecting Baal-worship in the 9th century, then with prophetic condemnation of Baal, the asherim, sun-worship, worship on the "high places", practices pertaining to the dead, and other matters.[40]
In the earliest literature such as the Song of the Sea (Exodus 15:1–18, celebrating Yahweh's victory over Egypt at the exodus), Yahweh is a warrior for his people, a storm-god typical of ancient Near Eastern myths, marching out from a region to the south or south-east of Israel with the heavenly host of stars and planets that make up his army.[41] Israel's battles are Yahweh's battles, Israel's victories are his victories, and while other peoples have other gods, Israel's god is Yahweh, who will procure a fertile resting-place for them:[42]
There is none like God, O Jeshurun (i.e., Israel)
who rides through the heavens to your help ...
he subdues the ancient gods, shatters the forces of old ...
so Israel lives in safety, untroubled is Jacob's abode ...
Your enemies shall come fawning to you,
and you shall tread on their backs.
— Deuteronomy 33:26–29
[/URL]
They said the same stuff about the Egyptian gods and Zeus....not real.
There is none like God, O Jeshurun (i.e., Israel)
who rides through the heavens to your help ...
he subdues the ancient gods, shatters the forces of old ...
so Israel lives in safety, untroubled is Jacob's abode ...
Your enemies shall come fawning to you,
and you shall tread on their backs.
— [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Deuteronomy']Deuteronomy 33:26–29[/URL]
dad
Undefeated
Prove that nature and laws were the same on earth in the past then. Otherwise you are left with religion.
Not really an issue.
. Time running "the same" needs a support to even suggest it.
You use nature today to support your beliefs about what it was like in the past.
So what? Same ratio? Example?
It is not a theory it is an observed fact. Science doesn't know what time is like out there. It doesn't even know what time is - period!
What measurement, you forgot to post it.
If you mean spectra try and remember that we only see that here IN our space and time.
There are no findings I do not like or that you have posted!
No idea what you are talking about. What baloney.
In science, we have no clue what time is like out there. I happen to accept evidence from the bible though so I have plenty of evidence. Science has none at all and does not know.
Other way around. With science we do not know what time is like in the universe.
Laws of physics in the universe are not eve an issue here.
Time is. Time is not a law of physics.
No. But when we realize science doesn't know, then we dismiss the billions of YESRS they claim. If time is not the same then the universe we see can have been created 6000 years ago.
The claim IS that others (science) do not know! So yes we darn well do demand evidence if you turn around and claim you do know!
Strawman, time is not a law of physics. Get over it.
No evidence poor little deaf dumb and blind so-called science can deal with. That says nothing.
dad
Undefeated
Sorry. Not interested in your opinion about God.
dad
Undefeated
Objects in deep space move at an unknown speed. You only assign light speed of the fishbowl to it all for no reason.
On earth, sure. We know how space and time behave HERE. Nothing to do with the far universe.
Says who? You ever followed a photon to the far universe?
Nice story. Prove it.
In this solar system area, sure. Now you can stop.
No. Man has a limited time to live as ordained by God. Our probability quotient is limited!
Fantasy. You are extrapolating fishbowl realities and space and time into the unknown. No more than mind games.
Man only knows what time and space are like out to less than one light DAY actually. So you could talk about some infinitesimally small time dilation that may be involved IN that framework. You may not talk about a light week or year! No not a one.
Fantasy. The observations stop in the area of the solar system. Have you seen mass approach the speed of light?
Conjecture.
No such thing as light speed in the universe. You just assumed light took so much time to move based on earth time observation! I would also suspect that a photon here on earth or area would be in time also! Time is not based on movement. Movement is just a clock or way to measure time. It is not time itself.
Pure speculation.
The ONLY billions of years in this universe are in your imagination.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Poor dad. You still do not understand the burden of proof. You need to "prove" that things were different. The fact is that the evidence says that you are wrong. Unfortunately you won't let yourself understand the concept of evidence or evidence.
This long rant of yours is just another example of you losing because you refuse to support your claims and probably cannot support your claims. The person that you responded to did support his claims. In case you did not now that puts the burden of proof upon you.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Evidence points to laws being constant. Physical processes that require the laws of physics also happened in the past. The entire planet is in a delicate balance in which the laws of physics are the base. If something were different it would have dramatic effects. All evidence shows things happened the same in the past.
Also the laws of physics show no need or reason to have operated differently at different times.
So you need some evidence of laws operating differently either within the individual theories or some physical evidence that something was different.
We have none of that. So your idea is just fantasy.
Cool, well we know where Voyager spacecraft is and we know exactly how long it will take a light signal to reach it and return. That all works out. We know exactly how to modify GPS clocks in space to account for time dilation, that works out perfectly.
There are many lines of evidence to understand that time operates the same in space.
Everyone does. We assume things were the same and look for evidence that it may have been different. There are some laws that if changed we would not be here.
But you would need be more specific? What in the past do you think was different?
Yes, ratios, when we see physics acting the same in distant quasars it gives confirmation that all of the laws of physics are likely operating the same. If they were different we would see strange things that we cannot explain and would have to figure out.
And again, the time it takes for light signals to reach spacecraft is exactly what is predicted by the speed of light being constant.
So light speed is the same in space which means time is operating the same in space.
Observations of the universe suggest the laws of physics are universal. If you have some conspiracy theory that time is somehow different if other areas of space you would need to explain why you think time would do this and is it even something one could demonstrate?
If time did not work in an area of the universe there would be no phenomenon? Yet we see things happening. I don't even know what you are arguing for? Do you even know?
Yes we see photons when they arrive on Earth. Why do you think this is some brilliant point only you have discovered? They still have to be created by physical processes and travel at light speed, all things that follow the current universal laws of physics.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Can't blame you. This isn't my opinion however, this is the historicity of Yahweh.
Yahweh - Wikipedia
From the 9th into the 6th centuries BCE the Yahwistic religion separated itself from its Canaanite heritage as Yahweh became the main god of the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) and of Judah,[11] and over time the royal court and Temple in Jerusalem promoted Yahweh as the god of the entire cosmos, possessing all the positive qualities previously attributed to the other gods and goddesses.[12][13] By the end of the Babylonian captivity (6th century BCE), the very existence of foreign gods was denied, and Yahweh was proclaimed as the creator of the cosmos and the one true God of all the world.[13]
The Israelites initially worshipped Yahweh alongside a variety of Canaanite gods and goddesses, including El, Asherah and Baal.[URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh#cite_note-FOOTNOTESmith20027-8'][7] In the period of the Judges and the first half of the monarchy, El and Yahweh became conflated in a process of religious syncretism.[8] As a result, 'el (Hebrew: אל) became a generic term meaning "god", as opposed to the name of a worshipped deity, and epithets such as El Shaddai came to be applied to Yahweh alone, diminishing the worship of El and strengthening the position of Yahweh.[[/URL]
joelr
Well-Known Member
In Minkowski 4 vector everything moves at the same speed in spacetime.
Add speed to the space vector and the time velocity slows.
Because the laws of spacetime preserve causality. Without them that would fail. We see the entire universe operating in a manner that shows the laws are operating universally.
yes Voyager is 11 billion miles away and light speed and time are operating just fine.
The entire universe is expanding exactly as predicted using our current laws.
prove photons experience no time? I posted an article from a physicist?
https://phys.org/news/2014-05-does-light-experience-time.html
we also do experiments with atomic clocks that demonstrate time slowing down exactly as predicted by relativity.
No time dilation is happening in physical processes we see all across the universe. Black holes, neutron stars, fusion inside stars and many other cosmological events require all of the laws of modern physics to be in very precise balance. Otherwise the far regions of the universe would be failing or doing unexplained things.
As special relativity predicts people traveling in planes along with the Earths rotation have been measured to age slower by atomic clocks. So god has no say. If they increased their speed they would live even longer. This is already a fact. It doesn't seem longer to the person going fast, it seems longer to people who are not moving at that velocity.
Objects moving faster and faster gain mass, a fact proven by experiment over and over.
Shouting "fantasy" and "conjecture" at established facts is a really bad look. It's one big face palm after another.
And wrong again. Time slows down with movement according to special relativity. Confirmed countless times with atomic clocks and airplanes for one.
this is the science thread, where is your science discussion? So far you have only sourced your personal feelings and bronze age myths?
dad
Undefeated
Except, that is made up nonsense. We are not talking about a change IN nature but a different nature.
Or the same as far as science is concerned. In fact, science doesn't know why forces and laws are like they are or where they came from!
From what I hear it only may be good for around 5 more years. That is not enough time to get back. Nor is 5 years traveling time going to make any real difference in how far the furthest probes have gone. It will still be something like a light day or maybe less.
Name one example? I suspect they believe it was the same and model accordingly.
The fundamental forces and laws and maybe more.
You only see the light here.
Not if whatever entered our space and time had to exist as we see things must exist here.
Again, I allow you up to one light day, so that is irrelevant to your billions of years fantasy.
So light speed is the same in space which means time is operating the same in space.
Who cares? Who asked what laws are like? The issue in far space is space and time. Not laws.
I need nothing more than the fact science doesn't know.
The issue is whether time is the same. Of course we still have movement, but if time were different, then that movement would not involve the same time as here.
Doesn't matter one bit. What matters is that we see it in our time and space. So when we see something that takes, say 52 days, that means 52 days in fishbowl time! We do not know what time was involved way way out there.
dad
Undefeated
Might as well read the small print in a pack of toilet paper.