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Why Quran rejects crucifixion of Christ by the Jews?

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Questioning the accuracy of scripture shouldn't be so threatening. I think the truth is probably more amazing and powerful than we know. Isn't that why archaeologists and linguists devote so much time to serious study?
You misunderstand. I'm not threatened by anti-religious research. And I agree that the truth is better than we know. But I don't think they are close to the truth. Because I have faith in my religion.
Besides, there are enough religious and/or pro-biblical researchers out there that disagree with your views and others that hold those views.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Certainly, if you're anti-Bible. If not, then you'd know that in terms of biblical discoveries, people are biased either way. Either they're out there to prove the truth of the Bible or they're out there to disprove it. Those are the two sides of the spectrum and researchers fall somewhere in-between.
So it's not really "it is what it is". It is what your personal bias is.

Bible archaeology has problems because the focus is on proving the Bible.. In the past 40 or 50 years archaeology stands alone.. to allow the unbiased findings speak. To me at least this is important.. and points to the scripture being didactic literature rather than history or science.

I don't like the idea of taking scripture out of context and inventing new meanings like Christians have done with bits from Hosea and Isaiah or just plain lying about Daniel. Isn't Jesus sufficient without false embellishments?
You misunderstand. I'm not threatened by anti-religious research. And I agree that the truth is better than we know. But I don't think they are close to the truth. Because I have faith in my religion.
Besides, there are enough religious and/or pro-biblical researchers out there that disagree with your views and others that hold those views.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
No. Thats actually a made up story. The verse says la thakooloo salaasa. Do not say three. It doesnt define who the three is. Do your own research. Famous websites are very misleading.
Disagree:

[4:171]

O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion, and do not say about God except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, is the Messenger of God, and His Word that He conveyed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and do not say, "Three." Refrain—it is better for you. God is only one God. Glory be to Him—that He should have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and the earth, and God is a sufficient Protector.

Quran in English - Clear and Easy to Read.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Bible archaeology has problems because the focus is on proving the Bible.. In the past 40 or 50 years archaeology stands alone.. to allow the unbiased findings speak. To me at least this is important.. and points to the scripture being didactic literature rather than history or science.
The same is true of "the other side" who are dead-set on disproving the bible.
I don't like the idea of taking scripture out of context and inventing new meanings like Christians have done with bits from Hosea and Isaiah or just plain lying about Daniel. Isn't Jesus sufficient without false embellishments?
Finally, something we can agree on! Thank you. :):):)
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The same is true of "the other side" who are dead-set on disproving the bible.

Finally, something we can agree on! Thank you. :):):)

No.. Originally archaeology was strictly about proving the Bible.. They approached every excavation with the Bible in one hand and a spade in the other. Its come a long way since then..

I think co-opting Old Testament to PROVE Jesus is very dishonest and muddies the water.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Disagree:

[4:171]

O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion, and do not say about God except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, is the Messenger of God, and His Word that He conveyed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and do not say, "Three." Refrain—it is better for you. God is only one God. Glory be to Him—that He should have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and the earth, and God is a sufficient Protector.

Quran in English - Clear and Easy to Read.

It does not define what the trinity is. It clearly says not to say three. La thakulu salasa. thats it. You have cut and pasted the verse. So read that same thing. Jesus is addressed as "Isabnu Maryama" all over the book. If you think just a mention of the name Mary makes her part of the trinity you are inferring way too much into it.

Nope. It does not define a trinity.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
No.. Originally archaeology was strictly about proving the Bible.. They approached every excavation with the Bible in one hand and a spade in the other. Its come a long way since then..
I don't get the "no" part of the answer. No what? Do you deny that the archaeologists whose views you hold are anti-Biblical? Yes, they have come a long way. It doesn't mean that the way they've come is a good one.
I think co-opting Old Testament to PROVE Jesus is very dishonest and muddies the water.
I highly agree. On this point, I wish more Christians would agree with you.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I don't get the "no" part of the answer. No what? Do you deny that the archaeologists whose views you hold are anti-Biblical? Yes, they have come a long way. It doesn't mean that the way they've come is a good one.

I highly agree. On this point, I wish more Christians would agree with you.

Bible Archaeology has proven desperately faulty over the years.. Shades of Yadin Yigael and his Masada fraud to promote Israeli nationalism. Thank God the Israeli Archaeologists these days are well-educated and courageous. They have set aside agenda to get to the basic truths.

Too many fundamentalist Christians are afraid to look at Hosea, Isaiah and Daniel honestly.. Its the same problem "Bible Archaeologists" had in the past.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Please provide references for those...I'd like to see them and compare with the Tanakh.
Here we go (in no order of importance):

1. Psalms 22:17 - Tanach:
"For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet."
NT version (KJV, similarly, many other versions): 22:16:
"For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet."

2. Isaiah 7:14 - Tanach:
"Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
NT version (KJV), Matthew 1:23:
"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
KJV Isaiah 7:14:
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

Just a side note, how do we know the Hebrew word 'עלמה' 'almah' is 'young woman' and not 'virgin'? Because the Hebrew word for 'virgin' is 'betulah' which Isaiah also uses. For example (62:5): "For as a young man espouseth a virgin, so shall thy sons espouse thee; and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee." - כִּי-יִבְעַל בָּחוּר בְּתוּלָה, יִבְעָלוּךְ בָּנָיִךְ; וּמְשׂוֹשׂ חָתָן עַל-כַּלָּה, יָשִׂישׂ עָלַיִךְ" אֱלֹקיִךְ."
Moreover, the name "Immanuel" does not mean "God shall become flesh and walk among us" or something, it simply means: "God is with us".

3. Isaiah 53 - Tanach:
[Describes a suffering servant] - This refers to the Nation of Israel and follows the theme of ch. 52's description of the exile and redemption. Israel is referred to as the servant of God in singular form several times before this chapter. For example: "Ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen..." (Isaiah 43:10).
Isaiah 53 - NT:
For example, Matthew 8:14-17: "When Jesus came into Peter’s house, he saw Peter’s mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. He touched her hand and the fever left her, and she got up and began to wait on him. When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: “He took up our infirmities and bore our diseases.”"

4. Isaiah 59:20 - Tanach:
"And a redeemer will come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD."
NT version - Romans 11:26-27:
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

5. Daniel 9:25-26 - Tanach:
"Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto one anointed, a prince, shall be seven weeks; and for threescore and two weeks, it shall be built again, with broad place and moat, but in troublous times. And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
NT version (KJV):
"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

I think that's enough for now.
Note: I was not aware that RF automatically links verses. I linked all verses myself from other sources.
 
Last edited:

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I will, when I'll be near my computer.
Thank you for the verses...I will check them out.
Please know that I am aware of the misinterpretation of many verses in Christendom's translations. And please also be aware that JW's do not subscribe to Christendom's doctrines. We love the Hebrew scriptures as much as you do.

You can understand why I would like to examine them....we all have an obligation to know the truth....regardless of our personal bias. The truth doesn’t cater to personal bias....sometimes it challenges it and it takes everything in us not to justify the misinformation we were raised with. We have to ask God to tell our hearts to accept his truth.....after all, what is the alternative?

Go where? You think Jews can't handle the reality of the exile, diaspora and lack of a temple and are not aware it's our fault? We think about it every single day, several times a day. With that being said, to say the Romans were merely poor puppets and aren't to be blamed for anything is garbage.

No, I meant that I didn’t want to go there with you as if to combat you over those things. I do understand how painful it is to contemplate the behavior of your own people in the past, when it is so shameful. Many of us in Australia feel the same way about how our ancestors treated our indigenous people. I am ashamed to be a white Australian when I contemplate the horrors inflicted on the traditional earth owners of my country. But I can’t take responsibility for what they did, unless I support them.

You see, the behavior of those in the past, did not have to determine Israel’s future. You can side with the offenders and justify their behavior, or you can separate yourself from them and follow a new path. This is what I believe Jesus’ disciples did.

I believe that Jesus came to remove that shame for those willing to put it behind them and move forward. It is a very ‘Jewish’ thing I have learned, to rely on their Abrahamic roots to keep them in God’s good books with endless forgiveness. But from our perspective, God’s book never closed, it continued to educate, once the Messiah came...it is inclusive as God has always been. But you have to leave your old ways and beliefs at the door on your way in.

Have you examined the evidence objectively for yourself? Your scripture is part of our scripture...your history is our history. It forms the foundation of all of our beliefs. Jesus was a devout Jew, so anti-semitism does not belong in our faith. All of the first Christians were Jewish....all the writers of our scripture were Jewish.

Putting the blame on the Jewish leaders of the day, does not condemn the whole nation unless those guilty ones are believed, and their behavior is justified, and you stick with them and their side of the story by accepting their excuses. It’s hard to dismiss John the Baptist’s condemnation of them, given their track record....both he and Jesus sentenced them to Gehenna. It doesn’t have to be a description of all Jewish people though....does it?

Look at it this way: God wants X to happen, but if this random empire chooses to actually be benevolent, so X will happen by a different empire. The Romans weren't exactly benevolent.

Didn’t the Hebrew Scriptures describe what was to happen in the future? Doesn't Daniel take us to the kings of our present day and tell of the Kingdom crushing all opposing kingdoms out of existence and replacing them? (Daniel 2:44)

What if Messiah has already been and is about to return and fulfill all of the restoration prophesies, where does that leave the Jews who are still waiting? The "great Day of God the Almighty" is about to take place and it looks like the Jewish nation is standing on the wrong platform....waiting for a train that will never come. The other train will leave without them...wouldn't that be a tragedy? :(
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
It does not define what the trinity is. It clearly says not to say three. La thakulu salasa. thats it. You have cut and pasted the verse. So read that same thing. Jesus is addressed as "Isabnu Maryama" all over the book. If you think just a mention of the name Mary makes her part of the trinity you are inferring way too much into it.

Nope. It does not define a trinity.
And when Allah said, "O Isa, son (of) Maryam! Did you say to the people, "Take me and my mother (as) two gods besides Allah?" He said, "Glory be to You! Not was for me that I say what not I (had) right. If I had said it, then surely You would have known it. You know what (is) in myself, and not I know what (is) in Yourself. Indeed, You, You (are) All-Knower (of) the unseen.

al-Ma`idah 5:116
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
And when Allah said, "O Isa, son (of) Maryam! Did you say to the people, "Take me and my mother (as) two gods besides Allah?" He said, "Glory be to You! Not was for me that I say what not I (had) right. If I had said it, then surely You would have known it. You know what (is) in myself, and not I know what (is) in Yourself. Indeed, You, You (are) All-Knower (of) the unseen.

al-Ma`idah 5:116

It doesnt say trinity here. This is a different verse.

There are other verses that says things like "Have you taken your own ego as God", you think that also creates a trinity?

How about when the Quran says "Did you take your wealth and children as God's besides Allah"? Does that mean God, money, children, Jesus, Mary, Spirit, the word, everything is part of the trinity? You should read the Quran. It says people have taken their religious clergy as God's. This is common in the Quran.

This verse doesn't say "Trinity".

If you wish ill give you another verse that mentions the trinity.

5:73 Rejecters indeed are those who have said: “God is third of three!” There is no god except One god. If they do not cease from what they are saying, then those who reject from among them will be afflicted with a painful retribution.

Peace.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
You can understand why I would like to examine them....we all have an obligation to know the truth....regardless of our personal bias. The truth doesn’t cater to personal bias....sometimes it challenges it and it takes everything in us not to justify the misinformation we were raised with. We have to ask God to tell our hearts to accept his truth.....after all, what is the alternative?
Agreed. Well-said.
Have you examined the evidence objectively for yourself? Your scripture is part of our scripture...your history is our history. It forms the foundation of all of our beliefs. Jesus was a devout Jew, so anti-semitism does not belong in our faith. All of the first Christians were Jewish....all the writers of our scripture were Jewish.
I'm not sure how I could examine the evidence "objectively" - I'm not an extra-terrestrial outsider to the whole concept of religion, nor am I a new-born baby that has yet to be taught anything about anything o_O;). The point being, that I look at NT scriptures (when I look at them, which isn't too often) and think: this is all so wrong. Why? Partially because of things that don't add up in terms of differences between the Tanach and the NT, but also because I was raised this way.
Putting the blame on the Jewish leaders of the day, does not condemn the whole nation unless those guilty ones are believed, and their behavior is justified, and you stick with them and their side of the story by accepting their excuses. It’s hard to dismiss John the Baptist’s condemnation of them, given their track record....both he and Jesus sentenced them to Gehenna. It doesn’t have to be a description of all Jewish people though....does it?
You guys accept the NT's excuses, so? We each have our side of the story. Do you want to hear Talmudic descriptions of Jesus? Probably not...No it does not have to be the description of all Jewish people, but the fact of the matter is, that for millennia, this is what most Christians thought. Seeds of change began post-WWII, then with the Vatican II, but even today there are still a great many Christians who hold this view. Furthermore, we adhere to the decisions - many of whom were very tough-calls - of our Jewish leaders. Mistakes are pointed out when necessary (For example, you may read about Rabbi Zecharyah Ben Avkolas) - but this wasn't pointed out as a mistake, at least not on behalf of the Pharisee rabbis of the time.
Doesn't Daniel take us to the kings of our present day and tell of the Kingdom crushing all opposing kingdoms out of existence and replacing them?
I'm not an expert on Daniel. Having gotten that out of the way,
Didn’t the Hebrew Scriptures describe what was to happen in the future?
They do. But it's not as clear-cut as you seem to be trying to make it out to be. I'm pretty sure that Rome isn't mentioned by name in the Tanach. An enemy empire is mentioned, for sure - but who is it referring to?
What if Messiah has already been and is about to return and fulfill all of the restoration prophesies, where does that leave the Jews who are still waiting? The "great Day of God the Almighty" is about to take place and it looks like the Jewish nation is standing on the wrong platform....waiting for a train that will never come. The other train will leave without them...wouldn't that be a tragedy? :(
That's a big what-if. Yeah, it probably would be a tragedy. The Jewish answer is: God, you personally told us a,b,c, and told us never to disregard any of that. Then some dude comes and tells us to disregard a,b,c and of course, loyal to You, we didn't listen. Now we're being punished?! Which is why your what-if is far-fetched, to say the least.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Here we go (in no order of importance):

1. Psalms 22:17 - Tanach:
"For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet."
NT version (KJV, similarly, many other versions): 22:16:
"For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet."

I would like to give you the translation from the Bible that JW's use if I may.....
"They close in on me like a pack of evildoers,
Like a lion they are at my hands and feet."
(NWT)

2. Isaiah 7:14 - Tanach:
"Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
NT version (KJV), Matthew 1:23:
"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
KJV Isaiah 7:14:
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

"Therefore, Jehovah himself will give you a sign: Look! The young woman will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and she will name him Im·manʹu·el." (NWT)

Just a side note, how do we know the Hebrew word 'עלמה' 'almah' is 'young woman' and not 'virgin'? Because the Hebrew word for 'virgin' is 'betulah' which Isaiah also uses. For example (62:5): "For as a young man espouseth a virgin, so shall thy sons espouse thee; and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee." - כִּי-יִבְעַל בָּחוּר בְּתוּלָה, יִבְעָלוּךְ בָּנָיִךְ; וּמְשׂוֹשׂ חָתָן עַל-כַּלָּה, יָשִׂישׂ עָלַיִךְ" אֱלֹקיִךְ."
Moreover, the name "Immanuel" does not mean "God shall become flesh and walk among us" or something, it simply means: "God is with us".

We agree with you. Jesus is not God. God was “with” Israel without becoming a human.

3. Isaiah 53 - Tanach:
[Describes a suffering servant] - This refers to the Nation of Israel and follows the theme of ch. 52's description of the exile and redemption. Israel is referred to as the servant of God in singular form several times before this chapter. For example: "Ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen..." (Isaiah 43:10).

Isaiah 43:10 is where we derive our name....Jehovah's Witnesses. "The Lord" here is Yahweh ("Jehovah" being the accepted form of the divine name in English.)
אַתֶּ֚ם עֵדַי֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה וְעַבְדִּ֖י אֲשֶׁ֣ר בָּחָ֑רְתִּי לְמַ֣עַן תֵּ֠דְעוּ וְתַֽאֲמִ֨ינוּ לִ֚י וְתָבִ֙ינוּ֙ כִּֽי־אֲנִ֣י ה֔וּא לְפָנַי֙ לֹֽא־נ֣וֹצַר אֵ֔ל וְאַֽחֲרַ֖י

Isaiah 53 - NT:
For example, Matthew 8:14-17: "When Jesus came into Peter’s house, he saw Peter’s mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. He touched her hand and the fever left her, and she got up and began to wait on him. When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: “He took up our infirmities and bore our diseases.”"

Here is how we would explain Isaiah 52...
Jehovah Exalts His Messianic Servant — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

4. Isaiah 59:20 - Tanach:
"And a redeemer will come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD."
NT version - Romans 11:26-27:
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

"To Zion the Repurchaser will come,
To those in Jacob who turn from transgression,” declares Jehovah."
(NWT)

5. Daniel 9:25-26 - Tanach:
"Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto one anointed, a prince, shall be seven weeks; and for threescore and two weeks, it shall be built again, with broad place and moat, but in troublous times. And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

NT version (KJV):
"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

"You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·siʹah* the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress.
26 “And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off,* with nothing for himself.
“And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations."


I think that's enough for now.
Note: I was not aware that RF automatically links verses. I linked all verses myself from other sources.

I hope that you can see that our translation more closely follows the Tanakh because Jews know how to interpret Jewish scripture. God will never let the words be tampered with, though some mess with the interpretation.

We have very little in common with Christendom, which we see as corrupted Christianity. It was foretold.

Thank you for the effort.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
We have very little in common with Christendom, which we see as corrupted Christianity. It was foretold.
I see that now. I hadn't realized you were a JW when I first sent the list of verses. I also wasn't aware you had your own version of the Bible.:sweatsmile:

But we'll still have to disagree about Jesus's role in life and the ultimate redemption.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I'm not an expert on Daniel. Having gotten that out of the way,

Just out of interest.....

Having studied Daniel’s writings quite extensively, it is fascinating that God instructed him to seal up his book until “the time of the end” (Daniel 12:4) as only then would its contents be understood.

God gave Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar a dream involving an immense image, with different metals representing all the world powers who had dealings with God’s people from the time of the Babylonian exile, until the time of Messiah’s Kingdom’s coming to “crush” all existing kingdoms out of existence, and to replace them. (See Daniel ch 2)

It showed the various kingdoms down through the centuries....starting with Babylon, it shows Medo-Persia as the next world power, followed by Greece, then Rome and finally the Anglo-American dual world power. The Kingdom “comes” in the days of those final kings.....there are no others mentioned.

To me, this proves that Messiah Kingdom will be established over the earth in our time.

If you'd like to check it out, here is a link to our study material. It's quite a fascinating read. Particularly Ch 4.
Publications — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

For the timing of the kingdom's rule, we use the same formula that the Jews in the first century used to calculate the time of Messiah's first appearance in 29 C.E. We have calculated 1914 as the year that “the time of the end” began....it doesn't tell us when it ends....but world events are indicating that it will not be long.

We are living in momentous times....
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Just out of interest.....

Having studied Daniel’s writings quite extensively, it is fascinating that God instructed him to seal up his book until “the time of the end” (Daniel 12:4) as only then would its contents be understood.

God gave Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar a dream involving an immense image, with different metals representing all the world powers who had dealings with God’s people from the time of the Babylonian exile, until the time of Messiah’s Kingdom’s coming to “crush” all existing kingdoms out of existence, and to replace them. (See Daniel ch 2)

It showed the various kingdoms down through the centuries....starting with Babylon, it shows Medo-Persia as the next world power, followed by Greece, then Rome and finally the Anglo-American dual world power. The Kingdom “comes” in the days of those final kings.....there are no others mentioned.

To me, this proves that Messiah Kingdom will be established over the earth in our time.

If you'd like to check it out, here is a link to our study material. It's quite a fascinating read. Particularly Ch 4.
Publications — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

For the timing of the kingdom's rule, we use the same formula that the Jews in the first century used to calculate the time of Messiah's first appearance in 29 C.E. We have calculated 1914 as the year that “the time of the end” began....it doesn't tell us when it ends....but world events are indicating that it will not be long.

We are living in momentous times....

Daniel was NEVER in Babylon.. Daniel was written in 167 BC...….. The authors were writing a story to encourage the Jews who were suffering under Antiochus IV. He inflicted the Abomination of Desolation on the Jewish people.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I just watched the video.

The claim that required proof is below:

( link )

I didn't hear proof of that in the video that you provided. Did I miss it?

You are looking for specific words that isn't going to happen. Now go read the OT and watch the video. Go look at the view of various Israel kings by the Judea dominated text.

Keep in mind you have confused what Sooda said as if it were a quote when it was no such thing. So I question if you actually watched the video and understood it considering your blunder.
 
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Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
You are looking for specific words that isn't going to happen. Now go read the OT and watch the video. Go look at the view of various Israel kings by the Judea dominated text
Thanks for the reminder. Forgot to watch the video...
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
You are looking for specific words that isn't going to happen. Now go read the OT and watch the video. Go look at the view of various Israel kings by the Judea dominated text.
The video isn't relevant. It doesn't speak about the opinion of the citizens of Judea about the citizens of Israel.

I'm not looking for specific words.
 
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