Tumah
Veteran Member
Nice!
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Why Quran rejects crucifixion of Christ by the Jews?
- Thread starter InvestigateTruth
- Start date
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
So what you meant was that the crucifixion story itself, and Jesus dying for sins, etc. was the "hard act to follow."
I understand where the confusion came from, because that is not actually what you said. You said the rejection of the crucifixion was a hard act to follow. Specifically the rejection - which was Muhammad's own act. So it read like the justification you were giving for Muhammad's rejection of the crucifixion was that Muhammad felt that this rejection of his would be a "hard act to follow." Like he rejected it in order to not be able to follow up with anything more profound than the rejection.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Is this from Luke 23:34? Is it described anywhere else?
firedragon
Veteran Member
This is the slippery slope fallacy.
My bad,I always blame my phone for not being smart enough never the operator.
Basically there wasn't really anything special about Muhammed,unlike the stories where Jesus performed miracles,was born of a virgin and died on the cross for the sins of the world so as a prophet Muhammeds story isnt anywhere near as amazing,that's why the rejection imo.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
However if the soldiers needed forgiveness... אין שליח לדבר עבירה?
Maybe according to Jesus, "the Jews" are not culpable after all...
A lot of the Quran is addressing miracles of the past so as to not accuse Mohammad of being a sorcerer and they were will constantly calling his miracles - sorcery. According to Shiite hadiths, Mohammad even Raised some dead people and as for curing the blind, well that is accepted by Sunni and Shiites, and there is a lot miracles he performed. What Arabs wanted was something further, they wanted ALL their forefathers brought, and God and his Messenger who only performs miracles per permission of God (each of them he needs his permission), was obviously not going to do that.
Aside from that, Sunnis and Shiites hadith show he constantly had a supernatural scent that was beautiful to smell and could be smelled from far and he had no shadow and other features.
Arabs back then accused all of his signs and miracles to be sorcery. And Jews re-thought of miracles, and no longer saw them as evident proofs, but put other conditions Prophets must come with as they did in the past with Jesus.
As for Christians, when they came to see the truth, in that Area, most of them accepted.
As for Christians, when they came to see the truth, in that Area, most of them accepted.
I've read many hadith's,my actual favourite was about a man who looked after another man's camel,there was some disagreement because the man who looked after the camel ride it,the ruling of Muhammed was along the lines of he fuelled the camel so he had the right to use it,I'll try to find that Hadith again.
As for the rest,I don't believe in either Christianity or islam,imo it's all man made for the pursuit of power,both stories are obviously powerful though.
So much of Quran is passionately devoted to why miracles are a sign and proof in face of accusations of being a sorcerer. The passion in this regard, convinces me, that not only Mohammad did these miracles, but the Mahdi will come with such miracles, and I believe the "sign coming from the sky so their necks stoop to it" is about Jesus coming from the sky to support the Mahdi.
I swear, if humanity accuses them of being sorcerers, because of their leaders and because of TV Shows and deviant conjecture, they deserve to be destroyed at that point but while we still can, let's try to steer humanity towards the Guides and not away.
I swear, if humanity accuses them of being sorcerers, because of their leaders and because of TV Shows and deviant conjecture, they deserve to be destroyed at that point but while we still can, let's try to steer humanity towards the Guides and not away.
Yes. Each of the gospel accounts includes some details that the others omit. To us, the four accounts make up one story.
Since Jesus had exposed the Jewish religious leaders for their hypocrisy consistently throughout his ministry, there is no way that he was asking God to forgive those whom he had already consigned to Gehenna. (Matthew 23) The Roman soldiers were not guilty of Jesus’ murder because they were just doing their job.
The crowd assembled when Pilate wanted to release Jesus, (whipped up no doubt by the Jewish leaders) cried out...”Let his blood come upon us and upon our children.” (Matthew 27:25) They virtually cursed themselves and their future generations with Jesus’ blood.
Does Israel’s history demonstrate God’s blessing? Was their Temple rebuilt? Since it was the very centre of God’s worship throughout Israel’s history, why is it still missing? Why are three Abrahamic religions squabbling over the Temple Mount? Whose God is worshipped there? Can you see a problem? What if they are all wrong? What if God is not in any of those bickering faiths, fighting over a piece of dirt?
Jesus' encounter with the Samaritan woman at the well, revealed something important....
John 4:19-22...
She said to Jesus......“Sir, I see that you are a prophet. 20 Our forefathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.” 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews."
The geography was no longer important.
When considering Jewish history, the words of Jesus at Matthew 23:37-39 sealed the fate of God’s nation. Relying on their sonship with Abraham did not guarantee God’s forgiveness forever, as John the Baptist confirmed in Matthew 3:7-10.
Once their Messiah was produced, God’s covenant was fulfilled. He offered his nation first option for roles as ‘priests in his holy nation’, but as prophesied, only a remnant responded. (Isaiah 10:22-23; Isaiah 1:9)
As a nation, they never did repent over their role in Jesus’ murder, consistently denying him as Messiah, but with his death, God’s covenant was fulfilled. He had produced their Messiah, but the Jewish leaders of the day refused to be corrected by God’s last prophet, whom they treated in much the same way as all the rest. They ignored his words and silenced him. This is all recorded in Jewish scripture.
Making excuses for their appalling history is what Jewish leadership have always done. Jesus said that they were leading others to Gehenna (not hell) right along with them. It was a stinging rebuke, and his teachings (concentrating on love and forgiveness) led “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” out of a corrupted religious system and into a new pen, where the spirit of the law was emphasized rather than the rigid letter. Many Jews heard his message and gradually abandoned a religious system that was mercilessly enslaved to ritual but largely devoid of love and forgiveness for those who were just ordinary people trying to do their best. Those whom Jesus chose as his apostles were not well educated men, but humble fishermen and those looked down upon by the Pharisees.
It was the Leadership whom Jesus condemned, not the people.
Israel today is just another one of the warring nations. Like times past, she allies herself with those whose worship she despises. Didn't God punish his ancient people for doing that? (Isaiah 30:2-3; Jeremiah 2:36-37)
What does the evidence demonstrate? Obviously it may mean something different to you than it does to me.
But that is what I base my assessment on.
This is an incredibly problematic statement. If I claim to have murdered because I was "merely following orders", I could get away with just about anything. Officers from a certain well-known regime some 75 or so years ago made the same claims when they were put on trial. Can you guess who they were? Yet they (at least most of them) weren't acquitted but found guilty.
This is pretty sick nonsense. Not to mention the Jews simply did not have that much power, if any, over the Romans, let alone Pilate. It was the Romans who arrested him, it was the Romans who had such a problem with him declaring himself a King in their eyes, it was the Romans who had the authority to put someone to death. This is without mentioning that Jesus was crucified. This punishment was expensive and was reserved generally only for the most serious crime - treason against the Empire. Flogging went along with that and was a normal part of the process. If Pilate really gave a damn (and from what we know of the man he likely didn't, as even the Romans removed him for being too cruel) he could have spared Jesus all of this and had him killed any other way, but he wanted to make an example of the man. Nothing else would suffice.
When the Romans have to remove you from power for being too cruel, a bunch of backwater Jews isn't going to threaten you.
sooda
Veteran Member
Muslims reject blood sacrifice and original sin.. To them Jesus was the purest of the prophets .. too pure to have died such a cruel and humiliating death. It offends their sense of justice.
sooda
Veteran Member
Nope.. The Jews demanded Jesus' death.
sooda
Veteran Member
That's true.. It was the Pharisees in Jerusalem.. They hated "Hellenized" Jews from Israel anyway..
firedragon
Veteran Member
Thats according to the Bible. But historically, its more plausible that it was the romans who persecuted and killed him.
Jews "Demanding Jesus's death" from the romans is what you picked up from the Bible, and is highly improbable.
Anyway, that was not my main point.
Peace.
sooda
Veteran Member
All over the Roman Empire the Romans NEVER concerned themselves with religion of other people. Why do you think most of Jesus mission was around Galilee in the north? He was pretty safe up there .. Herod Antipas wasn't concerned with Jesus.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Its not the religion. Its sedition. Many were.