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Proof Jesus said he is not God in atleast 3 Gospel accounts

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Every human is body, soul and spirit. Not just body but they ahve a soul and spirit as well. Jesus was no different. The only difference is that His soul and Spirit are one with God.

Every human has a body....a personality that makes them unique, and breath in their lungs that keeps their mortal body alive.

From the Bible's definition we know what the body means.....it was what God created for Adam. He then breathed into his lungs the breath (spirit) of life and only then was the man called a "soul". Adam was not given a soul, but "became" one as soon as God started him breathing. That is the Biblical definition of a soul...."a living, breathing creature"...both man and animal. The word is never used to describe a disembodied spirit.

This is where people stumble over poor translation. These words used in the Bible are given a meaning that the audience for whom they were written, would understand. Not the meaning attributed later when the church adopted pagan doctrines.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is a classic example of poor translation...the words at face value appear to say one thing, but in context, are about the body, life and spirit of the entire congregation, not individuals. It is not talking about components in every human body indicating that we have three separate bits of us that function independently.

And of course when He died Jesus' Spirit left His body because it was dead. And that's what happens to anyone who dies by the way.

Jesus was Jewish and the ancient Jews did not have any belief in an afterlife......
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. . . . 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave [sheol], where you are going." (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

Look at Genesis 2:7 to see what the sentence was, given to Adam....no heaven or hell scenario was ever held out to God's people. Death meant a return to the dust. Any future existence was to be by a literal, physical resurrection back to this life but under the peaceful reign of God's son. This is something Jesus promised to do when he was ruling as King of God's Kingdom. (John 5:28-29) Jesus calls all the dead from the same place...their graves. That is because they are all still in them.

The later apostate Jews adopted belief in an immortal soul from the Greeks. But it is not something Jesus ever taught. An spiritual afterlife is a belief that permeates all false worship because it makes God's statement in Eden meaningless. He told the first humans that they would die if they disobeyed his command.....the devil said that God lied. So do we die, or do we just go on living in another form in another realm? Jesus said that the devil lied.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

There is no such thing as a ghost. The word "ghost" comes from a German word "geist" meaning "spirit". Yet another example of poor translation.

By entrusting his "spirit" to God, Jesus was yielding his human life over to his Father in order to pay the ransom for the human race. This is not some shadowy part of humans that leaves the body at death, but the final breath that goes out of the body when we stop breathing. Jesus was dead for 3 days in the tomb, just as he said he would be. After that God resurrected Jesus, but not in the flesh....he was given a spiritual body in order to return to heaven. (1 Peter 3:18) He "appeared" to his disciples during the 40 days that he stayed after his resurrection, but not always in the same body.

Psalm 146:4...
"His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish."

The spirit "goes out" like a candle or a light goes out......life is extinguished.


Read what the scripture says....when the "spirit (ruwach) leaves the body, all conscious thought processes cease, just as Ecclesiastes says.

But, what is so interesting about Jesus' death is that at the same time the Spirit left His body the Spirit of God also was symbolically leaving the holiest of holies in the temple.

Really? Jesus promised that the "helper", the holy spirit would be sent when he returned to heaven to offer up the value of his sacrifice to God.

"For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf." (Hebrews 9:24)
In his role as "High Priest" Jesus is always there to intercede for us.

Luke 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

So, it's clear that the "veil" of the temple represents Jesus own body and within is the holiest place. Or the place where the Spirit of God is. And when Jesus died, the Spirit left both His body and symbolically left the temple also. This means that Jesus was basically God veiled in human flesh.

Oh dear...I think that is a bit skewed too.
The veil in the temple was a curtain between the Holy Compartment and the Most Holy compartment of the Temple. Only the High Priests was allowed to enter there...and only once a year. The curtain represented the barrier between heaven and earth...the flesh. Christ gave up his flesh and removed the barrier by becoming the first human resurrected to heaven....it then paved the way for his disciples to follow, later....As "firstborn from the dead" no one could enter heaven before Jesus. (Colossians 1:18; 1 Corinthians 15:20; John 3:13)

So of course the holy Spirit although He can't die. He did take on the death and resurrection of Christ. It's clear from scriptures. So yes God did die and rise from the dead in Jesus Christ.

An immortal God cannot die. The holy spirit in the Bible is not a person. It is the administration of God's power, directed where he wills it. When given to humans they can heal the sick, raise the dead, speak in foreign languages, prophesy and do all manner of supernatural fetes.

When Moses was struggling with his assignment after Israel was rescued from Egypt, he was given 70 assistants who all shared the holy spirit that was originally given to Moses. (Numbers 11:16-17) This demonstrated that God's spirit is apportioned as needed for any task that he assigns to his servants.

Romans 8:9-10
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Again, I believe that this is poorly understood in the light of Christendom's doctrines.
Romans 8:11 explains a little further...
"If, now, the spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in you."

Can you see that the one who raised Jesus from the dead was God, by his spirit? The spirit of God is not an entity but is power from God directed at his discretion to accomplish his purpose. This is what gave Jesus life again. It is what Jesus used during his ministry, and he will use again to raise the dead in the future. (John 5:28-29) It is what gave Christ's disciples their miraculous abilities.

When his friend Lazarus died, where did Jesus say he was? (John 11:11-14) Where did Lazarus say he had been? If he was in a better place, why would Jesus bring him back to this life, only to die a second time?
We must think more deeply about what the Bible says as a whole, not just in selected misinterpreted verses.

Jesus was as powerless as any other humans until his baptism. He received holy spirit then and was able to perform miracles to back up his claim to be the Messiah. He handed on the holy spirit to help his disciples to carry on in his absence.

That is my understanding of these things.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
From the Bible's definition we know what the body means.....it was what God created for Adam. He then breathed into his lungs the breath (spirit) of life and only then was the man called a "soul". Adam was not given a soul, but "became" one as soon as God started him breathing. That is the Biblical definition of a soul...."a living, breathing creature"...both man and animal. The word is never used to describe a disembodied spirit.

You are on the right track but need to be more precise. The Bible does not say that a body was created for Adam. It says that the Lord God formed man (adam) from the dust of the ground."and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man (adam) became a living soul.

Can you see the difference between what you said and what the Bible says?

What God formed from the dust of the ground is not called a body but is called adam (man). The form itself is called man even before the man became a living soul.

Why is that important?
Because what was formed from the dust is what is called "man" and "man" is formed in the image of God.

When you said that a body was created for Adam it sounds as if God breathed Adam into a body as if Adam existed apart from a body. That's not the case at all.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You are on the right track but need to be more precise. The Bible does not say that a body was created for Adam. It says that the Lord God formed man (adam) from the dust of the ground."and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man (adam) became a living soul.

Can you see the difference between what you said and what the Bible says?

What God formed from the dust of the ground is not called a body but is called adam (man). The form itself is called man even before the man became a living soul.

Why is that important?
Because what was formed from the dust is what is called "man" and "man" is formed in the image of God.

When you said that a body was created for Adam it sounds as if God breathed Adam into a body as if Adam existed apart from a body. That's not the case at all.

You are being a little pedantic about the semantics here I feel.

Adʹam means “Earthling Man; Mankind; Humankind; from a root meaning “red”.

Forming the first human, God indeed formed his body from the dust (or elements) of the earth, but that body did not come to life until God breathed air into Adam’s lungs to start him breathing, thereby animating his body.

It is true that “man” in bodily form existed before his “life” began, but names in the Bible were not mere labels, Adam was not just his name but also a description of who and what he was in contrast to all the other lifeforms that God created. Man alone was created in God’s image.

Adam called his mate “Eve”, meaning “Living One” apparently related to the Hebrew verb cha·yahʹ, “live”. He said that she would “become the mother of everyone living”. So again, a very simple but appropriate name.

A lifeless body is not a soul. Adam “became” a soul when God started him breathing. God would have repeated the process when creating Eve from Adam’s DNA. “Souls” are living, breathing creatures. Their “spirit” is the breath that keeps their cells replicating and functioning.

At death, the soul dies. Sin produces death...we can’t escape it. (Ezekiel 18:4)
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
This is a classic example of poor translation...the words at face value appear to say one thing, but in context, are about the body, life and spirit of the entire congregation, not individuals. It is not talking about components in every human body indicating that we have three separate bits of us that function independently.
Even if it was metaphor yet to claim that they would use metaphor of non-existent things is quite a claim. Because usually when you make a metaphor it is of something that is real. So if Paul used metaphor to compare the church to a "body, soul and spirit" then these things must exist. We do have these things; all of us.

Let's not ignore that there are other verses that speak of the same things.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
The later apostate Jews adopted belief in an immortal soul from the Greeks. But it is not something Jesus ever taught. An spiritual afterlife is a belief that permeates all false worship because it makes God's statement in Eden meaningless. He told the first humans that they would die if they disobeyed his command.....the devil said that God lied. So do we die, or do we just go on living in another form in another realm? Jesus said that the devil lied.
They didn't adopt anything from the Greeks. The Greeks knew it because they go back to Noah etc. No doubt they had known all along about souls. This is why in the Bible they use "Hades" (the Greek so called pagan) place of the dead. This means that Hades is real. I'm sure that the Greeks were wrong about the details of the place; but the fact it exists is clear. Otherwise they wouldn't use that Greek word in the Bible. And of course they also use "Tartaros" in the Bible as well. This is the prison for the fallen angels.
There is no such thing as a ghost. The word "ghost" comes from a German word "geist" meaning "spirit". Yet another example of poor translation.

By entrusting his "spirit" to God, Jesus was yielding his human life over to his Father in order to pay the ransom for the human race. This is not some shadowy part of humans that leaves the body at death, but the final breath that goes out of the body when we stop breathing. Jesus was dead for 3 days in the tomb, just as he said he would be. After that God resurrected Jesus, but not in the flesh....he was given a spiritual body in order to return to heaven. (1 Peter 3:18) He "appeared" to his disciples during the 40 days that he stayed after his resurrection, but not always in the same body.

Psalm 146:4...
"His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish."

The spirit "goes out" like a candle or a light goes out......life is extinguished.


Read what the scripture says....when the "spirit (ruwach) leaves the body, all conscious thought processes cease, just as Ecclesiastes says.
Yes a ghost is a spirit. There is no difference. The thoughts perish because the physical brain is dead. Then they know the truth and whatever they thought was overturned when they died. Now they know.

Really? Jesus promised that the "helper", the holy spirit would be sent when he returned to heaven to offer up the value of his sacrifice to God.

"For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf." (Hebrews 9:24)
In his role as "High Priest" Jesus is always there to intercede for us.
What's your point?

Oh dear...I think that is a bit skewed too.
The veil in the temple was a curtain between the Holy Compartment and the Most Holy compartment of the Temple. Only the High Priests was allowed to enter there...and only once a year. The curtain represented the barrier between heaven and earth...the flesh. Christ gave up his flesh and removed the barrier by becoming the first human resurrected to heaven....it then paved the way for his disciples to follow, later....As "firstborn from the dead" no one could enter heaven before Jesus. (Colossians 1:18; 1 Corinthians 15:20; John 3:13)
Just because everything you say here is true or not that doesn't mean that what I said is wrong. Also, I don't know about that claim that Jesus had to enter heaven first. I believe He was always there but I digress ...

An immortal God cannot die. The holy spirit in the Bible is not a person. It is the administration of God's power, directed where he wills it. When given to humans they can heal the sick, raise the dead, speak in foreign languages, prophesy and do all manner of supernatural fetes.

When Moses was struggling with his assignment after Israel was rescued from Egypt, he was given 70 assistants who all shared the holy spirit that was originally given to Moses. (Numbers 11:16-17) This demonstrated that God's spirit is apportioned as needed for any task that he assigns to his servants.
God is a Spirit. (John 4:24) Yes, He sends out His Spirit as we read from Psalm 104:30. But that doesn't mean the Spirit is not a personality. It is God. That's all He is. His Spirit is infinite so He can send out to where ever He needs to be.

Again, I believe that this is poorly understood in the light of Christendom's doctrines.
Romans 8:11 explains a little further...
"If, now, the spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in you."

Can you see that the one who raised Jesus from the dead was God, by his spirit? The spirit of God is not an entity but is power from God directed at his discretion to accomplish his purpose. This is what gave Jesus life again. It is what Jesus used during his ministry, and he will use again to raise the dead in the future. (John 5:28-29) It is what gave Christ's disciples their miraculous abilities.

When his friend Lazarus died, where did Jesus say he was? (John 11:11-14) Where did Lazarus say he had been? If he was in a better place, why would Jesus bring him back to this life, only to die a second time?
We must think more deeply about what the Bible says as a whole, not just in selected misinterpreted verses.

Jesus was as powerless as any other humans until his baptism. He received holy spirit then and was able to perform miracles to back up his claim to be the Messiah. He handed on the holy spirit to help his disciples to carry on in his absence.

That is my understanding of these things.
The Spirit is an entity. Specifically; God. That's who the Spirit is. The way we like to say it is that the Spirit of God is God in action or motion. We see that the Spirit is always in motion or moving. Literally in Genesis 1:2 He "flutters" over the face of the deep and in Acts 2:1-4 what proceeds the outpouring of the Spirit? A sound as of a "rushing mighty wind".

The Father is God in relation to His children and the Word is God creating or destroying anything. This is God. One God and one person.

The Spirit of God directed with purpose is the Word of God. Just as you make words with your breath and your vocal cords tongue and lips give that breath specific vibration creating speech. So, God makes Words with His breath which the meaning of Spirit in Hebrew or Greek is Wind and breath. So then when God sends out His Spirit to create or to destroy it is called the Word of God. This is how the Word is with God and was God. Why He is called the Alpha and Omega (First and last letters of Greek Alphabet). The Letters of the alphabet giving direction or form to the breath. By this God is able to make or structure all things that He wills to exist. It's like computer code I guess.

We create words; so God forms words from His infinite breath.

Psalm 33:6
By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.


This is why Jesus is so necessarily the "Word made flesh" Because He comes to make all things new as God promised. "Behold I make all things new". And this begins with Jesus the "Chief cornerstone" of God's new creation.

To put it succinctly; the Word of God is vibrations within the holy Spirit.

Jesus didn't receive the holy Spirit at baptism for the first time. He was "anointed" this was to literally make Him indeed what He already was in prophecy and in foreordaination of God. That is the "Anointed One" or the Messiah if we transliterate. King David was anointed by a prophet Samuel, Saul also. But no one was worthy to anoint Jesus except God Himself. This was His moment of anointing when the Spirit descended upon Him instead of olive oil.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
The language is the same. Jesus is the son of the Father just as Isaac is the son of Abraham.
It's absurd to say that Jesus is the only begotten son if he is the same person as the one who is his father.
Father and son are never the same person. it's common sense..
Only for you it's common sense.

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. (Matthew 19:26)
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
But is not the only wise invisible God who is Lord God the Father. God our Father never died.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
He did die in Jesus Christ or through Jesus Christ. Not as if God literally died. He had to die through the Son of God.
 

Iymus

Active Member
He did die in Jesus Christ or through Jesus Christ. Not as if God literally died. He had to die through the Son of God.

1. I am aware of Lord God making his only begotten son an offering for sin but not aware of him dying literally or metaphorically through anyone. That doctrine I do not understand.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

2. If what you say is true then it seems there would be no need for the Son to say "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani" since God is dying with him to.

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
1. I am aware of Lord God making his only begotten son an offering for sin but not aware of him dying literally or metaphorically through anyone. That doctrine I do not understand.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

2. If what you say is true then it seems there would be no need for the Son to say "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani" since God is dying with him to.

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
So Jesus was clearly quoting from Psalm 22. Read the rest of Psalm 22; specifically verse 24.

Psalm 22:24
For He hath not despised, nor abominated, The affliction of the afflicted, Nor hath He hidden His face from him, And in his crying unto Him He heareth.

Did God forsake Jesus? Maybe in one sense that He allowed Him to die. But literally leave Him alone? I don't believe so.

As for proof that God died. We get it from this:

Jesus claims that no one has greater love than the one who lays down His life for His friends.

John 15:13 greater love than this hath no one, that any one his life may lay down for his friends;

So, to claim that God didn't die for us; implies that Jesus loves us more than God does. That's not correct; because God is love. (1 John 4:8) So God needed to die for us by His own rules.

Secondly, Jesus claims that at he "Good Shepherd" gives His life for the sheep. (John 10:11) So that logically implies that God must give His life for the sheep because God is also a Shepherd. If God wants to be a Good Shepherd then by His own rules He must give His life for them.

Here we see God referred to as a Shepherd:

Psalm 23:1 A Psalm of David. Jehovah [is] my shepherd, I do not lack,
 

Iymus

Active Member
As for proof that God died. We get it from this:

Jesus claims that no one has greater love than the one who lays down His life for His friends.

John 15:13 greater love than this hath no one, that any one his life may lay down for his friends;

:rolleyes:

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?


1. When it comes to speech, why do you not seem to appreciate the Will of God?

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

2. Whether man perishes or not Christ was about his fathers business first and foremost. Why are you turning Encouragement and Motivation into Romanticism and lasciviousness?

3. So Jesus must be Lord God the only true God soo much that you must interpret and justify God dying instead of preparing his only begotten son whom he loved dearly to be our Passover lamb?

4. God sent his Faithful and True Witness yet you using John 15:13 to imply the love of God is weak if he does not leave his throne room and sacrifice himself.

5. Psa 119:104 and Jud 1:4

Psa 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

6. I could understand if you were like an atheist or confessing another faith looking in because that would be a different matter but this type of lukewarmness is too much.
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
He did die in Jesus Christ or through Jesus Christ. Not as if God literally died. He had to die through the Son of God.

God had to die through his son? That doesnt even make sense. God doesnt die. If for some reason he did, we would all die. Plus, for what reason did God have to die? His son had to die? Do you know why?
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
You are being a little pedantic about the semantics here I feel.

Adʹam means “Earthling Man; Mankind; Humankind; from a root meaning “red”.

Forming the first human, God indeed formed his body from the dust (or elements) of the earth, but that body did not come to life until God breathed air into Adam’s lungs to start him breathing, thereby animating his body.

It is true that “man” in bodily form existed before his “life” began, but names in the Bible were not mere labels, Adam was not just his name but also a description of who and what he was in contrast to all the other lifeforms that God created. Man alone was created in God’s image.

Adam called his mate “Eve”, meaning “Living One” apparently related to the Hebrew verb cha·yahʹ, “live”. He said that she would “become the mother of everyone living”. So again, a very simple but appropriate name.

A lifeless body is not a soul. Adam “became” a soul when God started him breathing. God would have repeated the process when creating Eve from Adam’s DNA. “Souls” are living, breathing creatures. Their “spirit” is the breath that keeps their cells replicating and functioning.

At death, the soul dies. Sin produces death...we can’t escape it. (Ezekiel 18:4)
I'm being what?Actually, the scripture says that adam(man) became a living soul when God breathed the breath of life into THE MAN. THE MAN is what was formed from the dust of the earth.
You are incorrect when you say that God formed a body for man. The Bible says , "THE MAN became a living soul." It does NOT say "a body became man".
The lifeless body that was formed in the image of God is called "THE MAN".
 
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LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
God had to die through his son? That doesnt even make sense. God doesnt die. If for some reason he did, we would all die. Plus, for what reason did God have to die? His son had to die? Do you know why?
God ONLY has immortality! That means that God could NEVER die. Jesus died. But Jesus was raised to life again and now has the immortality that God has. Which means that Jesus will never die again.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
1. I am aware of Lord God making his only begotten son an offering for sin but not aware of him dying literally or metaphorically through anyone. That doctrine I do not understand.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

2. If what you say is true then it seems there would be no need for the Son to say "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani" since God is dying with him to.

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
God died for me? If God died, then so did everything else that has life die because God sustains all life by His spirit.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
You are being a little pedantic about the semantics here I feel.

Adʹam means “Earthling Man; Mankind; Humankind; from a root meaning “red”.

Forming the first human, God indeed formed his body from the dust (or elements) of the earth, but that body did not come to life until God breathed air into Adam’s lungs to start him breathing, thereby animating his body.

It is true that “man” in bodily form existed before his “life” began, but names in the Bible were not mere labels, Adam was not just his name but also a description of who and what he was in contrast to all the other lifeforms that God created. Man alone was created in God’s image.

Adam called his mate “Eve”, meaning “Living One” apparently related to the Hebrew verb cha·yahʹ, “live”. He said that she would “become the mother of everyone living”. So again, a very simple but appropriate name.

A lifeless body is not a soul. Adam “became” a soul when God started him breathing. God would have repeated the process when creating Eve from Adam’s DNA. “Souls” are living, breathing creatures. Their “spirit” is the breath that keeps their cells replicating and functioning.

At death, the soul dies. Sin produces death...we can’t escape it. (Ezekiel 18:4)
You are correct when you say "'man' in bodily form existed before his “life” began". But you would be incorrect if you said that that "man", before receiving the breath of life, is NOT what the image of God consist.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
God had to die through his son? That doesnt even make sense. God doesnt die. If for some reason he did, we would all die. Plus, for what reason did God have to die? His son had to die? Do you know why?
"God doesn't, God can't"

Nice try but you can't limit God.

What do you think? He did it to save you.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
:rolleyes:

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?


1. When it comes to speech, why do you not seem to appreciate the Will of God?

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

2. Whether man perishes or not Christ was about his fathers business first and foremost. Why are you turning Encouragement and Motivation into Romanticism and lasciviousness?

3. So Jesus must be Lord God the only true God soo much that you must interpret and justify God dying instead of preparing his only begotten son whom he loved dearly to be our Passover lamb?

4. God sent his Faithful and True Witness yet you using John 15:13 to imply the love of God is weak if he does not leave his throne room and sacrifice himself.

5. Psa 119:104 and Jud 1:4

Psa 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

6. I could understand if you were like an atheist or confessing another faith looking in because that would be a different matter but this type of lukewarmness is too much.
God hasn't chosen the wisdom of this world or those who are prudent in their own opinion. But He will reveal the truth to babes.

Matthew 11:25-27
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Only for you it's common sense.

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. (Matthew 19:26)
To say that father and son are the same person is as absurd as saying they were the same age. Jesus had a birthday. Then he was one year old, then two years old...etc.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Are you forgetting that Jesus said "before Abraham was I am"?
Jesus had said that Abraham rejoiced to see, and saw "My day". Then the Jews asked him if he had seen Abraham. Jesus did not say that he saw Abraham, but rather he says "before Abraham's coming I am."

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, 'Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming—I am;' ( Young's Literal Translation)

Abraham is to come again by resurrection from the dead. He is to be born from the dead. But before Abraham can be born from the dead, Jesus must come and die and be born from the dead himself.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Even if it was metaphor yet to claim that they would use metaphor of non-existent things is quite a claim. Because usually when you make a metaphor it is of something that is real. So if Paul used metaphor to compare the church to a "body, soul and spirit" then these things must exist. We do have these things; all of us.

Let's not ignore that there are other verses that speak of the same things.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Paul was not speaking about the "body, soul and spirit" of humans...he was speaking about the "body" as a body of Christians (the body of Christ)...the "elect".
He spoke of the "soul" of that body....its very life as the anointed of God, doing his will......and he spoke of the "spirit" of that body, being the motivational force that drove them to follow Christ's teachings, in spite of strong opposition.

Like Jesus' command to be baptized "in the name of the Father, son and holy spirit"....this does not indicate a trinity but requires that Christ's disciples understand the important role of each of these in God's purpose. The Creator who sent his son in to the world as a human to become their redeemer, and the role that the holy spirit played in bringing all of that about.

What is the soul that is "destroyed" at Matthew 10:28? What is "Ge·henʹna"?

Yes a ghost is a spirit. There is no difference. The thoughts perish because the physical brain is dead. Then they know the truth and whatever they thought was overturned when they died. Now they know.

Not according to Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10.....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [sheol] where you are going."

It says where "you" are going....not where your body is going. There is no consciousness in death. The dead know nothing.

I don't know about that claim that Jesus had to enter heaven first. I believe He was always there but I digress ...

Jesus is called "the firstborn from the dead" because he was the first "human" to go to heaven. No human went to heaven before Jesus, as John 3:13 says. Jesus came from heaven originally because he was a spirit son of God before becoming a human son of God. His death and resurrection paved the way for his elect to join him there once the Kingdom was established.

God is a Spirit. (John 4:24) Yes, He sends out His Spirit as we read from Psalm 104:30. But that doesn't mean the Spirit is not a personality. It is God. That's all He is. His Spirit is infinite so He can send out to where ever He needs to be.

I don't know how you can say that. God is a Spirit Being.....and he has a spirit family in heaven, but his holy spirit is the application of his power. I mentioned the fact that it is apportioned out as needed. The 70 assistants that were appointed to help Moses to carry his load were given the same spirit that was originally given to Moses but evenly spread out among the 70.....how can that be a person?

The use of the pronoun "he" with respect to the spirit is because of Greek grammar, not because the holy spirit is a literal "he". Spirits have no need of gender.

The Spirit is an entity. Specifically; God. That's who the Spirit is. The way we like to say it is that the Spirit of God is God in action or motion. We see that the Spirit is always in motion or moving. Literally in Genesis 1:2 He "flutters" over the face of the deep and in Acts 2:1-4 what proceeds the outpouring of the Spirit? A sound as of a "rushing mighty wind".

"God is a spirit" as John said.....but God is not the holy spirit, which has no personality...nor does it have a name, like Yahweh and Jesus do. When Jesus and his Father are mentioned in almost all instances, there is no mention of the holy spirit. Like John 17:3, in prayer Jesus said...."This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ."
If God is equal thirds, why is knowing the holy spirit not mentioned?

Paul wrote....."For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him." (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)
Again there is "one God" mentioned, and that is the Father.....and "one Lord Jesus"....but no holy spirit...

The Father is God in relation to His children and the Word is God creating or destroying anything. This is God. One God and one person.

Where will I find this mentioned in scripture? The only true God is Yahweh...."the Word" (Logos) is God's spokesman. He is a servant of his God. (Acts 3:13) God cannot be a servant of himself.

This is why Jesus is so necessarily the "Word made flesh" Because He comes to make all things new as God promised. "Behold I make all things new". And this begins with Jesus the "Chief cornerstone" of God's new creation.

To put it succinctly; the Word of God is vibrations within the holy Spirit.

Again with descriptions that are not biblically based....?
"The Word became flesh".....but God didn't. He didn't have to because he has servants (including Jesus) to do what needs to be done, and he empowers them with holy spirit to accomplish their assignments. He is the Universal Sovereign.....he does not need to become a human to redeem the human race. He has paid the debt by the unselfish act of a willing volunteer.....his most trusted son and servant.

Jesus didn't receive the holy Spirit at baptism for the first time. He was "anointed" this was to literally make Him indeed what He already was in prophecy and in foreordaination of God. That is the "Anointed One" or the Messiah if we transliterate. King David was anointed by a prophet Samuel, Saul also. But no one was worthy to anoint Jesus except God Himself. This was His moment of anointing when the Spirit descended upon Him instead of olive oil.

Hang on.....the Father sent Jesus to be born as a human child so that he could pay the ransom demanded for the release of Adam's children from sin and death. At his baptism, who anointed Jesus and why was it a dove and not the usual anointing oil?

Acts 10:37-38...
"You know the subject that was talked about throughout all Ju·deʹa, . . . .Jesus who was from Nazʹa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil, because God was with him."

Jesus was the first King to be anointed with holy spirit......it gave him powers that he did not have before. Those powers were the talk of Jerusalem so that large crowds gathered when word spread that he was visiting a town or village. People came in droves and he healed them of all their sicknesses "because God was with him"...NOT because he was God.

Jesus promised his disciples just before his ascension: “You will be baptized in holy spirit not many days after this.” (Acts 1:5, 8) This anointing was called a baptism. Jesus' anointing was at his baptism.

At Pentecost, his disciples were also anointed with holy spirit and could perform miracles as he had done.
 
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