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Were not the Hebrews already in Israel in Egypt?

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Just FYI, I tried to read the article, but, they are asking me to sign-up.

It's no biggie. I just thought u would appreciate know I was trying to read the article in your post.

:)

Cheers, it never asked me. I wont knowingly post links that force sign up. Here is the article


Here's a question for you: what do actor Charlton Heston, DreamWorks animation studios and Former Prime Minister Menachem Begin all have in common? Well, they've all, at one time or another, perpetuated the myth that the Jews built the pyramids. And it is a myth, make no mistake. Even if we take the earliest possible date for Jewish slavery that the Bible suggests, the Jews were enslaved in Egypt a good three hundred years after the 1750 B.C. completion date of the pyramids. That is, of course, if they were ever slaves in Egypt at all.

We are so quick to point out the obvious lies about Jews and Israel that come out in Egypt – the Sinai Governors claims that the Mossad released a shark into the Red Sea to kill Egyptians, or, as I once read in a newspaper whilst on holiday in Cairo, the tale of the magnetic belt buckles that Jews were selling cheap in Egypt that would sterilize men on contact – yet we so rarely examine our own misconceptions about the nature of our history with the Egyptian nation.

We tend, in the midst of our disdain for Egyptian, anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, to overlook the fact that one of the biggest events of the Jewish calendar is predicated upon reminding the next generation every year of how the Egyptians were our cruel slave-masters, in a bondage that likely never happened. Is this really so different from Jaws the Mossad agent?

The reality is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt. Yes, there's the story contained within the bible itself, but that's not a remotely historically admissible source. I'm talking about real proof; archeological evidence, state records and primary sources. Of these, nothing exists.

It is hard to believe that 600,000 families (which would mean about two million people) crossed the entire Sinai without leaving one shard of pottery (the archeologist's best friend) with Hebrew writing on it. It is remarkable that Egyptian records make no mention of the sudden migration of what would have been nearly a quarter of their population, nor has any evidence been found for any of the expected effects of such an exodus; such as economic downturn or labor shortages. Furthermore, there is no evidence in Israel that shows a sudden influx of people from another culture at that time. No rapid departure from traditional pottery has been seen, no record or story of a surge in population.

In fact, there's absolutely no more evidence to suggest that the story is true than there is in support of any of the Arab world's conspiracy theories and tall tales about Jews.

So, as we come to Passover 2012 when, thanks to the “Arab Spring,” our relations with Egypt are at a nearly 40 year low, let us enjoy our Seder and read the story by all means, but also remind those at the table who may forget that it is just a metaphor, and that there is no ancient animosity between Israelites and Egyptians. Because, if we want to re-establish that elusive peace with Egypt that so many worked so hard to build, we're all going to have to let go of our prejudices.
Were Jews ever really slaves in Egypt, or is Passover a myth?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Of course there were the Hebrews slaves.

I guess that the areas mentioned in the Bible are not there where the majority believe today.

Evidence sees it otherwise, the bible is not a history book
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
The Passover was inextricably linked to the sacrifice of the Messiah. As “the Lamb of God” his blood saved those who followed the directive to put the blood on their door posts. Had they failed to obey their God, the Israelites would have lost their firstborn as well.

It’s a matter of faith, which you can question as an atheist. I don’t question it at all because I understand what it all means in the big picture. That is my choice. You have to make your own.

I am not big on faith, I go by the evidence.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Still evading the question. The question is based solely on the content of the Bible, which says, as @calm correctly stated, that the Land of Israel's borders are from the Red Sea to the Euphrates River, meaning the Sinai Desert is Israel. Yet it also states that Moses never entered the Land of Israel.

If it's hard to think about it like that, how about substituting Israel for Narnia. The larger Narnia includes Calormen, Archenland, Telmar and a bunch of other fictional countries.

If Moses stood in Archenland, which is technically part of Narnia, then that means that Moses was actually in Narnia. Why does CS Lewis then proceed to say that Moses never entered Narnia, if he actually did enter Narnia? :D

Narnia? Maybe you should take one myth at a time.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Cheers, it never asked me. I wont knowingly post links that force sign up. Here is the article


Here's a question for you: what do actor Charlton Heston, DreamWorks animation studios and Former Prime Minister Menachem Begin all have in common? Well, they've all, at one time or another, perpetuated the myth that the Jews built the pyramids. And it is a myth, make no mistake. Even if we take the earliest possible date for Jewish slavery that the Bible suggests, the Jews were enslaved in Egypt a good three hundred years after the 1750 B.C. completion date of the pyramids. That is, of course, if they were ever slaves in Egypt at all.

We are so quick to point out the obvious lies about Jews and Israel that come out in Egypt – the Sinai Governors claims that the Mossad released a shark into the Red Sea to kill Egyptians, or, as I once read in a newspaper whilst on holiday in Cairo, the tale of the magnetic belt buckles that Jews were selling cheap in Egypt that would sterilize men on contact – yet we so rarely examine our own misconceptions about the nature of our history with the Egyptian nation.

We tend, in the midst of our disdain for Egyptian, anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, to overlook the fact that one of the biggest events of the Jewish calendar is predicated upon reminding the next generation every year of how the Egyptians were our cruel slave-masters, in a bondage that likely never happened. Is this really so different from Jaws the Mossad agent?

The reality is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt. Yes, there's the story contained within the bible itself, but that's not a remotely historically admissible source. I'm talking about real proof; archeological evidence, state records and primary sources. Of these, nothing exists.

It is hard to believe that 600,000 families (which would mean about two million people) crossed the entire Sinai without leaving one shard of pottery (the archeologist's best friend) with Hebrew writing on it. It is remarkable that Egyptian records make no mention of the sudden migration of what would have been nearly a quarter of their population, nor has any evidence been found for any of the expected effects of such an exodus; such as economic downturn or labor shortages. Furthermore, there is no evidence in Israel that shows a sudden influx of people from another culture at that time. No rapid departure from traditional pottery has been seen, no record or story of a surge in population.

In fact, there's absolutely no more evidence to suggest that the story is true than there is in support of any of the Arab world's conspiracy theories and tall tales about Jews.

So, as we come to Passover 2012 when, thanks to the “Arab Spring,” our relations with Egypt are at a nearly 40 year low, let us enjoy our Seder and read the story by all means, but also remind those at the table who may forget that it is just a metaphor, and that there is no ancient animosity between Israelites and Egyptians. Because, if we want to re-establish that elusive peace with Egypt that so many worked so hard to build, we're all going to have to let go of our prejudices.
Were Jews ever really slaves in Egypt, or is Passover a myth?
There's no evidence... I'm ok with that.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
There's no evidence... I'm ok with that.

I consider lack of evidence evidence in its own right.

For example, there is no evidence of water running from that tap, conclusion the tap is switched off.

But

There is certainly proof the the workers who built the pyramids were not slaves, hebrew or otherwise
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Evidence sees it otherwise, the bible is not a history book
This archaeologist, at least, seems to disagree with you:
Did I Find King David's Palace?

"One of the many things I learned from my grandfather was how to relate to the Biblical text: Pore over it again and again, for it contains within it descriptions of genuine historical reality. It is not a simple matter to differentiate the layers of textual sources that have been piled one atop the other over generations; we don’t always have the tools to do it. But it is clear that concealed within the Biblical text are grains of detailed historical truth."​
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
This archaeologist, at least, seems to disagree with you:
Did I Find King David's Palace?

"One of the many things I learned from my grandfather was how to relate to the Biblical text: Pore over it again and again, for it contains within it descriptions of genuine historical reality. It is not a simple matter to differentiate the layers of textual sources that have been piled one atop the other over generations; we don’t always have the tools to do it. But it is clear that concealed within the Biblical text are grains of detailed historical truth."​

The bible contains some facts, what good book doesn't?
It is in no way a history book though
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
At the time when they were on the border of Egypt and when they crossed the Red Sea, the Hebrews were already in Israel. Or weren't they? For according to the Bible, Israel is much larger than the Israel of today. From the Nile River of Egypt to the Euphrates River is the territory of Israel. That means that the whole edge of Egypt and the half part of saudi Arabia is actually the land of Israel. If this is so, why did it take them 40 years, or in other words, why did they migrated at all, if they have been in Israel all this time? Because as I said, they were already in Egypt in Israel and they were already in Israel when they crossed the Red Sea. The whole area, according to the Bible, is Israel.
The "river of Egypt" in the Bible mentioned as the border of Israel was not the Nile.

And as for the Euphrates being the border of Israel. That was only meant to be the northern tip of the border of Israel. Not as if Israel stretched all the way to modern Baghdad. That's a totally false claim used by some Zionists to justify empire building for Israel. Remember the Euphrates starts north of Palestine in Syria and goes around to the Persian gulf. The eastern border of Israel was supposed to be the Jordan river but was expanded a little bit because 2 and half tribes settled on the other side.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
At the time when they were on the border of Egypt and when they crossed the Red Sea, the Hebrews were already in Israel. Or weren't they? For according to the Bible, Israel is much larger than the Israel of today. From the Nile River of Egypt to the Euphrates River is the territory of Israel. That means that the whole edge of Egypt and the half part of saudi Arabia is actually the land of Israel. If this is so, why did it take them 40 years, or in other words, why did they migrated at all, if they have been in Israel all this time? Because as I said, they were already in Egypt in Israel and they were already in Israel when they crossed the Red Sea. The whole area, according to the Bible, is Israel.

The history is pretty straightforward.. Egypt controlled Sinai and Canaan and the Canaanites were successful in mining, metallurgy and pottery making. They paid tribute to Pharaoh.

The Bible story glorifies the Hebrews, but its fiction. They were just a landless Canaanite tribe who embraced monotheism early. They would not even have been a blip on the radar except they sat on the trade route and provided a haven from bandits along the route.

And some say the whole area was Egyptian.
Fact is - we don't know.
Things changed all the time.

As for the 40 years. About 38 years of this
was spent living in Kadesh, or travelling to
or from Kadesh.

The story of a million or so Hebrews leaving
Egypt for Israel is considered absurd to many.
But millions of Jews TODAY returning to the
ancient homeland of Israel and resurrecting
their ancient language is far more absurd.
And it was spoken about often in the bible.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
For a TL;DR version in one sentence: The Hebrew people were never held in slavery in Egypt. The big event of mass slavery happened under Nebuchadnezzar reign until Cyrus the Great allowed them to return to Israel.

And you know this? Yet a thousand years before Babylon the Jews were talking
about the shameful chapter of their lives when they were in captivity.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Just FYI, I tried to read the article, but, they are asking me to sign-up.

It's no biggie. I just thought u would appreciate know I was trying to read the article in your post.

:)
I didn’t have that problem so it’s basically saying....

“The reality is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt. Yes, there's the story contained within the bible itself, but that's not a remotely historically admissible source. I'm talking about real proof; archeological evidence, state records and primary sources. Of these, nothing exists.”

Since Egypt never recorded anything that would have detracted from their supremacy as a world power, any wonder that embarrassing events were missing from their records.

The article goes on to say.....

“It is hard to believe that 600,000 families (which would mean about two million people) crossed the entire Sinai without leaving one shard of pottery (the archeologist's best friend) with Hebrew writing on it. It is remarkable that Egyptian records make no mention of the sudden migration of what would have been nearly a quarter of their population, nor has any evidence been found for any of the expected effects of such an exodus; such as economic downturn or labor shortages. Furthermore, there is no evidence in Israel that shows a sudden influx of people from another culture at that time. No rapid departure from traditional pottery has been seen, no record or story of a surge in population.

In fact, there's absolutely no more evidence to suggest that the story is true than there is in support of any of the Arab world's conspiracy theories and tall tales about Jews.“

Interesting at face value, but it takes nothing about God’s care and direction for his people into consideration whilst he provided for them in the wilderness. He guided them by a pillar of fire at night, and a pillar of cloud by day. It says that their clothing and footwear did not wear out. They obviously had receptacles for their food (manna) and water (that were miraculously provided) that could not be replaced, so what might have prevented them from losing those receptacles? Can we discount God’s intervention in that as well? Could this explain why there were no shards of pottery found in the desert?

I have no time for those who discount God’s power in all of his activities. We only have to see his power in creation to know what he is capable of. He has none of the limits that godless humans place on him IMO.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I consider lack of evidence evidence in its own right.

For example, there is no evidence of water running from that tap, conclusion the tap is switched off.

But

There is certainly proof the the workers who built the pyramids were not slaves, hebrew or otherwise
At some point in history the Jewish people started telling this story every year, en masse, in great detail. The details are consistent, the story telling is consistent. I like to the think that this story telling has been going on ever since the events occurred.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
If this is so, why did it take them 40 years, or in other words, why did they migrated at all, if they have been in Israel all this time?

If you're honestly curious why, I'm sure I can find answers for you. These are good questions, and I think there are good answers for them, if I recall.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I am not big on faith, I go by the evidence.

And that is what separates the believers from the unbelievers. Faith requires no proof other than what is already observed in nature and in the Universe. Incredible power is demonstrated, as is design and ingenuity. The Laws that govern everything didn't just appear for no reason. None of these designs just popped up out of nowhere. Complex systems don't replicate themselves by accident....Information needs a source and passing on information needs a mechanism. The "machinery" that accomplished all of that, didn't invent itself.

I see clearly that "Nature" has a designer. I have no idea what you see.....
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
And you know this? Yet a thousand years before Babylon the Jews were talking
about the shameful chapter of their lives when they were in captivity.

Have you read the source presented on the thread? If not, I'll make a TL;DR version: There are no archeological or primary source material that tells of such event in either Egypt, the Sinai desert or Palestine. I would also like to add that the Torah was compiled after the exile in Babylon and that most of Hebrew's mythology and theological thoughts was greatly influenced by the Persian civilisation. A minority of scholar place the Torah has a product of hellenistic influence. it's probable that the Torah wasn't fixed and widely used before the rise of the Hasmonean dynasty since the Elephantine Papyri don't make any mention of such compilation of Hebrew myths and history.

PS: Moses is widely considered as a fictionnal character in the same vein as King Arthur and a composite of various, older, historical characters for the sake of a "streamlined" narrative for the Hebrew people; a early form of nationalistic pseudo-history very common to Antique civilisations.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
And that is what separates the believers from the unbelievers. Faith requires no proof other than what is already observed in nature and in the Universe. Incredible power is demonstrated, as is design and ingenuity. The Laws that govern everything didn't just appear for no reason. None of these designs just popped up out of nowhere. Complex systems don't replicate themselves by accident....Information needs a source and passing on information needs a mechanism. The "machinery" that accomplished all of that, didn't invent itself.

I see clearly that "Nature" has a designer. I have no idea what you see.....

So what you seem to be saying is i don't know how how systems replicate so god did it. I am more of the sort tho says i dont know how x happened so i will try to find out.

And no god or other supernatural entity has ever been observed, which is why you need faith.

Complex systems are built from less complex systems, and back and back to molecular level. Nothing special about complex systems, just lots and lots of un-complex systems all together

The laws of the universe coalesced a finite time after the universe formed based on the properties of the universe. And no source was required because the laws that require a source did not exist

I see nature as a natural extension/progression of those laws
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
At the time when they were on the border of Egypt and when they crossed the Red Sea, the Hebrews were already in Israel. Or weren't they? For according to the Bible, Israel is much larger than the Israel of today. From the Nile River of Egypt to the Euphrates River is the territory of Israel. That means that the whole edge of Egypt and the half part of saudi Arabia is actually the land of Israel. If this is so, why did it take them 40 years, or in other words, why did they migrated at all, if they have been in Israel all this time? Because as I said, they were already in Egypt in Israel and they were already in Israel when they crossed the Red Sea. The whole area, according to the Bible, is Israel.
I don't enough about the claim that Israel stretched from Egypt to Mesopotamia but could it be that that was in a different time? Just over 30 years ago the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, Tschechoslovakia and the GDR were on the maps. Territories change.
 
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