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Theists, How do you know there is no being more powerful than God?

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Suppose for the sake of argument that the god of classical theism (Jesus/Allah/Yahweh, etc.) exists and did in fact create the universe and perform supernatural feats. How do you know that this god is not just a creation or tool being used by another more powerful god? Perhaps the more powerful god decided to make the god of classical theism believe that it is the most powerful being in existence, when in fact, it is not. Perhaps Jesus' death and resurrection did occur, but they were part of a plan put into place by a greater god, who will one day take Jesus/Yahweh/Allah by surprise when he/she/it (the more powerful god) asserts her/his/its authority over the universe. Perhaps the Bible/Qur'an were inspired by your god, but only because the more powerful god allowed them to be inspired in order to trick humans into thinking that the god of classical theism is the most powerful being in existence.

The point of this thought experiment is to show that you cannot (at least, as far as I can determine) prove your god is the most powerful being in existence. Even if he revealed himself to you in a genuinely powerful experience, you have no way of knowing that he is not simply a tool used by a more powerful god.
 

Earthtank

Active Member
Your question shows your lack of understanding of the definition of God. By its very nature and definition nothing is more powerful than God, if there is something that is more powerful than God, then that God, was never God to begin with. Try doing some basic research and understanding God before coming here trying to act smart when all you are doing is showing your lack of understanding.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I agree God is beyond the intellect and thus beyond intellectual proof of any proposition the mind can formulate. Reality is to be experienced not thought about.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Your question shows your lack of understanding of the definition of God. By its very nature and definition nothing is more powerful than God, if there is something that is more powerful than God, then that God, was never God to begin with. Try doing some basic research and understanding God before coming here trying to act smart when all you are doing is showing your lack of understanding.

You're simply playing a semantics game to avoid the question. If you prefer to define "god" that way, then replace the word "god" with whatever being you believe is the most powerful being in existence, and then address the questions.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Suppose for the sake of argument that the god of classical theism (Jesus/Allah/Yahweh, etc.) exists and did in fact create the universe and perform supernatural feats. How do you know that this god is not just a creation or tool being used by another more powerful god? Perhaps the more powerful god decided to make the god of classical theism believe that it is the most powerful being in existence, when in fact, it is not. Perhaps Jesus' death and resurrection did occur, but they were part of a plan put into place by a greater god, who will one day take Jesus/Yahweh/Allah by surprise when he/she/it (the more powerful god) asserts her/his/its authority over the universe. Perhaps the Bible/Qur'an were inspired by your god, but only because the more powerful god allowed them to be inspired in order to trick humans into thinking that the god of classical theism is the most powerful being in existence.

The point of this thought experiment is to show that you cannot (at least, as far as I can determine) prove your god is the most powerful being in existence. Even if he revealed himself to you in a genuinely powerful experience, you have no way of knowing that he is not simply a tool used by a more powerful god.
Consider: the 'more powerful god' you mentioned is really just what is meant generally by people whenever they use the word "God" -- they mean the "most high", not a lessor god, but the Most High, see. So, there you are pointing to what God is subtly thought to be, on that. Whatever that Person is, that is what we meant with the word "God". The meaning of the word.

Also, at least according to the words in the Bible, those taking those wordings (if they know the words) know that we don't know all about Him. For example:

8“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

So, it seems for those of us believing what that says, we already get that we definitely don't know all about Him. (which won't stop some from making up new notions and saying they know all about Him of course, lol, as people do like to invent new stuff every day; there is probably a new invention every day)

Also, if a person reads carefully through all Jesus said, then they ought to be able to comprehend Jesus knows God better than Joe or Ralph or whoever down the street or in the forum.

So, similar to how I would not try to teach Einstein General Relativity -- I also won't think I can be superior in knowing about God than Jesus knows of Him, see. That's merely a...realistic self-assessment.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Your question shows your lack of understanding of the definition of God. By its very nature and definition nothing is more powerful than God, if there is something that is more powerful than God, then that God, was never God to begin with. Try doing some basic research and understanding God before coming here trying to act smart when all you are doing is showing your lack of understanding.
Gee, in ancient Greece there was a hierarchy of gods. Zeus being the top god with a bunch of lesser gods sitting below him. So the term "god" hardly signifies an ultimate divine being. In fact, considering the faults of the god of Abraham it's easy to conclude he was hardly an ultimate divine being, but rather a minor god, perhaps a god in training, with some greater, parental god over him.

.

.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...The point of this thought experiment is to show that you cannot (at least, as far as I can determine) prove your god is the most powerful being in existence. ..

Yeah, I can’t prove almost anything, that is why I say I believe. And I believe there is nothing greater than Love.

He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.
1 John 4:8
 

leov

Well-Known Member
Suppose for the sake of argument that the god of classical theism (Jesus/Allah/Yahweh, etc.) exists and did in fact create the universe and perform supernatural feats. How do you know that this god is not just a creation or tool being used by another more powerful god? Perhaps the more powerful god decided to make the god of classical theism believe that it is the most powerful being in existence, when in fact, it is not. Perhaps Jesus' death and resurrection did occur, but they were part of a plan put into place by a greater god, who will one day take Jesus/Yahweh/Allah by surprise when he/she/it (the more powerful god) asserts her/his/its authority over the universe. Perhaps the Bible/Qur'an were inspired by your god, but only because the more powerful god allowed them to be inspired in order to trick humans into thinking that the god of classical theism is the most powerful being in existence.

The point of this thought experiment is to show that you cannot (at least, as far as I can determine) prove your god is the most powerful being in existence. Even if he revealed himself to you in a genuinely powerful experience, you have no way of knowing that he is not simply a tool used by a more powerful god.
Nobody knows the depth or height of the entire hierarchy of spiritual beings. Humans somewhere in it too.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
Because...

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beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
The idea of the creator god being the creation of a greater deity is typical of Gnostic thought, as reflected in the Nag Hammadi texts, as well as some other ancient texts. This was one of a variety of early Christianities, one that was deemed heretical and its adherents persecuted.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Consider: the 'more powerful god' you mentioned is really just what is meant generally by people whenever they use the word "God" -- they mean the "most high", not a lessor god, but the Most High, see. So, there you are pointing to what God is subtly thought to be, on that. Whatever that Person is, that is what we meant with the word "God". The meaning of the word.

Also, at least according to the words in the Bible, those taking those wordings (if they know the words) know that we don't know all about Him. For example:

8“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

So, it seems for those of us believing what that says, we already get that we definitely don't know all about Him. (which won't stop some from making up new notions and saying they know all about Him of course, lol, as people do like to invent new stuff every day; there is probably a new invention every day)

Also, if a person reads carefully through all Jesus said, then they ought to be able to comprehend Jesus knows God better than Joe or Ralph or whoever down the street or in the forum.

So, similar to how I would not try to teach Einstein General Relativity -- I also won't think I can be superior in knowing about God than Jesus knows of Him, see. That's merely a...realistic self-assessment.

So, how do you know Jesus/Yahweh is the most powerful being?
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Gee, in ancient Greece there was a hierarchy of gods. Zeus being the top god with a bunch of lesser gods sitting below him.
.
It was bit more complicated. Zeus was the head honcho of his realm but he couldn't challenge his brothers and sisters in their realms. It was more a balance of powers.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
So, how do you know Jesus/Yahweh is the most powerful being?

To me, that's sorta like asking me: "How would you know Einstein was the most muscular scientist?" And I'd pause...and wonder if you meant it as a metaphor. And I'd probably say, "He had a subtle, brilliant mind." and not try to convince you of anything, but just be satisfied with saying that accurate thing. So, in similar fashion: the Christ is first the great teacher, who you could learn from if you choose, if you sought to learn the most valuable things. I was trying to learn from very many of the great thinkers/teachers, quite a long list, with some names I really gained from including Lao Tzu, Emerson, Jung, Campbell, and there are many more, but I'm not trying to impress, but instead the point is that having read very many great thinkers/teachers from around the world, I can accurately say Jesus is worth anyone's time, if the person is willing or wanting to learn the best things. So, don't think of Einstein as a weight lifter, but as a brilliant scientist, and I wouldn't try to ask about Christ as how-powerful, but think of him in terms of what he has said for us to hear, the subtle deep things he said that made the accounts, the 4 accounts of his words and deeds.
 
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Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Gee, in ancient Greece there was a hierarchy of gods. Zeus being the top god with a bunch of lesser gods sitting below him. So the term "god" hardly signifies an ultimate divine being.
This isn't a problem when you understand that the God of monotheism is a qualitatively different concept than the entities called gods in polytheism. What the Greeks called gods do not exist according to monotheism.
 
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