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The biogeographic evidence for evolution

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Name two countries that are an example of this.

Any secular western european country will do vs any theocratic hellhole anywhere on the planet.

The Christian influence naturally improves life in countries where it was embraced to greater degrees.

:rolleyes:

A minute ago, you were ranting about those very same societies.

Also, I'ld say that freedom of beliefs, secularism, humanistic values etc exist not thanks to christianity, but rather in spite of it.

Back when these secular democracies were christian theocracies, they were hellholes as well. We refer to that period as "the dark ages". The improvement of life began when the churches were kicked out of politics and the public sphere.

Today, religiosity in such countries are at an all-time low.
In fact, there's a colleration there. Secular democracies tend to be better places to live as religiosity goes down.

However, part of the natural cycle of events of history is that nations and peoples that once had the truth eventually reject it and slide into a worse hole than surrounding nations.

Reality demonstrates the exact opposite.
As we go back in time, the influence and might of christianity grows and societal health plummets.
Once the church was kicked out of public life and politics, things exponentially improved.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I think with some theists forget, that when secularism first came out, it didn’t mean being anti-religion society.

Secularism actually meant that every citizens in that country have equal rights under the law, regardless if you were religious or not, there were no special privileges or special treatments for being Christians or Muslims.

The problems with theocracy being in power of politics, is to give special treatments to citizens that belonged to the same religion or even the same sect as those in powers.

It wasn’t just theists against atheists, it was also theists against theists, sect against sect, religion against other religions. Special treatments and privileges were give that follow specific religion or specific sect, while others were excluded or denied or ignored.

Anyone who weren’t in the same religion or same sect, were treated as second citizens. For instances, they weren’t allow to vote, cannot become elected officials or leaders, were segregated, were taxed for being different (eg non-Muslims), cannot bear arms or serve in military, were forced to convert, etc.

Secularism was meant to give equal rights to all citizens. People can choose to follow their preferred religions or not follow any religion at all, no reward and no punishment if you don’t belong to certain religion.

Secularism doesn’t and shouldn’t give special treatments to being atheists over Christians or Muslims. All citizens were treated the same.
 
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dad

Undefeated
Any secular western european country will do vs any theocratic hellhole anywhere on the planet.

Can't name two then, OK.

Also, I'ld say that freedom of beliefs, secularism, humanistic values etc exist not thanks to christianity, but rather in spite of it.
Secularism can take a hike. Humanism can take a hike. Freedom is great and only Jesus gives us that.

Back when these secular democracies were christian theocracies, they were hellholes as well. We refer to that period as "the dark ages". The improvement of life began when the churches were kicked out of politics and the public sphere.

Today, religiosity in such countries are at an all-time low.
In fact, there's a colleration there. Secular democracies tend to be better places to live as religiosity goes down.



Reality demonstrates the exact opposite.
As we go back in time, the influence and might of christianity grows and societal health plummets.
Once the church was kicked out of public life and politics, things exponentially improved.[/QUOTE]
Any secular western european country will do vs any theocratic hellhole anywhere on the planet.



:rolleyes:

A minute ago, you were ranting about those very same societies.

Also, I'ld say that freedom of beliefs, secularism, humanistic values etc exist not thanks to christianity, but rather in spite of it.

Back when these secular democracies were christian theocracies, they were hellholes as well. We refer to that period as "the dark ages". The improvement of life began when the churches were kicked out of politics and the public sphere.

Today, religiosity in such countries are at an all-time low.
In fact, there's a colleration there. Secular democracies tend to be better places to live as religiosity goes down.



Reality demonstrates the exact opposite.
As we go back in time, the influence and might of christianity grows and societal health plummets.
Once the church was kicked out of public life and politics, things exponentially improved.
Depravity is not really my standard of excellence, sorry.
 

dad

Undefeated
Secularism doesn’t and shouldn’t give special treatments to being atheists over Christians or Muslims. All citizens were treated the same.
All are slaves. So treat them all the same? Society should know right from wrong.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Can't name two then, OK.

I just gave you 250+ to choose from.

Again, any secular european democracy vs any theocratic hellhole will do.

Like Denmark vs Pakistan.
Or Sweden vs Saudi Arabia.

Countries that value secularism, freedom, democracy, humanism will outperform those that don't - like countries that favour religious doctrine over a secular constitution.

Secularism can take a hike. Humanism can take a hike.

Isn't it awesome to live in a secular humanistic society where you have the freedom to say such stupid and critisize the hand that feeds you, without having to worry about being called a heretic and undergoing physical punishment or even death?

Freedom is great and only Jesus gives us that.

A secular constitution gives you that.
It gives you the freedom to worship any imaginary deity you wish.

Depravity is not really my standard of excellence, sorry.

Right, right.

Life is so horrible in secular humanist democracies.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
All are slaves. So treat them all the same? Society should know right from wrong.
I am talking about citizens, not slaves.

All citizens should have the same rights to vote, freedom to choose their religions or not follow any religion, and every citizens should be protected by the law.

No special treatments should be given to theists or to atheists.

You have heard of “secular humanism” and the Age of Enlightenment, haven’t you?

Secular humanism is about people being able to be moral and ethical, about being accountable for one’s own action.

Many of the Enlightenment philosophers in the 18th and 19th centuries, eg John Locke and Jean-Jacques Rousseau, were outspoken critics of slavery and the slave trades.

The French Revolution from 1789 to 1799, caused violent unrest, that led to abolishment of French monarchy. Despite the violence and death, there were a number of positive outcomes, and one of them was not the abolishment of slavery in France, but to all French colonies, including those in the America.

Of course, it didn’t stop slave trades in English, Spanish and German colonies in America but there were no slaves in lands controlled by the French in the late 18th century and the 19th century. And the abolishment of slaves in the south (Confederacy or the Confederate states) didn’t occur among the Americans until Abraham Lincoln and post-American Civil War (1865).

So the French in America abolished slaves, about half a century before the Abraham Lincoln was elected president.

Although Thomas Jefferson, inspired by the French contemporaries and Enlightenment in Europe, signed the Act in 1807 that banned slaves being imported, it didn’t stop buying and owning slaves. So while the Act was step in the right direction, it didn’t prevent slavery. So Jefferson’s action in regarding to slavery was only half-baked solution. But Jefferson couldn’t enforce his Act, so in the end, most states repealed his Act.
 
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dad

Undefeated
I just gave you 250+ to choose from.
You sift through your own spam links and post a relevant quote fro one of them on topic that is not faith-based. Or do you even read your own spam?

Again, any secular european democracy vs any theocratic hellhole will do.

Like Denmark vs Pakistan.
Or Sweden vs Saudi Arabia.
Not bad. Now, are you favoring one over the other here? Why!? At least in Saudi Arabia one could maybe convert people who never heard the truth. Good luck in Denmark or Sweden doing that. They are on the downgrade with no brakes. Besides, it looks like it might be hard to tell them apart at the rate of immigration!

Countries that value secularism, freedom, democracy, humanism will outperform those that don't - like countries that favour religious doctrine over a secular constitution.
They end up not knowing male from female or truth from lie apparently. About as impressive as Sodom and Gomorrah.

Isn't it awesome to live in a secular humanistic society where you have the freedom to say such stupid and critisize the hand that feeds you, without having to worry about being called a heretic and undergoing physical punishment or even death?
Telling the truth is rapidly becoming illegal.

A secular constitution gives you that.
It gives you the freedom to worship any imaginary deity you wish.
And you to declare whatever truth or historical reality you like imaginary.
 

dad

Undefeated
I am talking about citizens, not slaves.
Me too. Citizens of Heaven are not slaves. Citizens of the earth that are in sin are slaves.
All citizens should have the same rights to vote, freedom to choose their religions or not follow any religion, and every citizens should be protected by the law.
Yeah yeah. And plenty for all, and world peace, etc. Too bad slaves of sin can never have it though.
No special treatments should be given to theists or to atheists.
A world without partiality also. Great. Good luck with that.
You have heard of “secular humanism” and the Age of Enlightenment, haven’t you?
Delusionary rhetoric.
Secular humanism is about people being able to be moral and ethical, about being accountable for one’s own action.
Pi in the sky then. OK.
Many of the Enlightenment philosophers in the 18th and 19th centuries, eg John Locke and Jean-Jacques Rousseau, were outspoken critics of slavery and the slave trades.
So were many missionaries such as William Duncan. They not only spoke blather and sweetness, Duncan set up a zone for slaves to flee to and be free.

The French Revolution from 1789 to 1799, caused violent unrest, that led to abolishment of French monarchy. Despite the violence and death, there were a number of positive outcomes, and one of them was not the abolishment of slavery in France, but to all French colonies, including those in the America.

"The Reign of Terror, or The Terror (French: la Terreur), refers to a period during the French Revolution after the First French Republic was established in which multiple massacres and public executions occurred in response to revolutionary fervor, anti-clerical sentiment, and frivolous accusations of treason by Maximilien Robespierre and his Committee of Public Safety."
I wonder if more people were killed or slaves freed?

Of course, it didn’t stop slave trades in English, Spanish and German colonies in America but there were no slaves in lands controlled by the French in the late 18th century and the 19th century. And the abolishment of slaves in the south (Confederacy or the Confederate states) didn’t occur among the Americans until Abraham Lincoln and post-American Civil War (1865).
Wasn't that around the time the US had the or one of the largest free-standing armies in the world? So people lost plantation jobs and learned how to die for their country. (and start to pay more taxes)
So the French in America abolished slaves, about half a century before the Abraham Lincoln was elected president.
Great. They also did a lot of other things in the area. Traded liquor to natives, enslaving them, for example.

Although Thomas Jefferson, inspired by the French contemporaries and Enlightenment in Europe, signed the Act in 1807 that banned slaves being imported, it didn’t stop buying and owning slaves. So while the Act was step in the right direction, it didn’t prevent slavery. So Jefferson’s action in regarding to slavery was only half-baked solution. But Jefferson couldn’t enforce his Act, so in the end, most states repealed his Act.

I would question whether the US freed the natives in America! In fact, many would see it as enslavement and loss of freedom.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
I just gave you 250+ to choose from.

Again, any secular european democracy vs any theocratic hellhole will do.

Like Denmark vs Pakistan.
Or Sweden vs Saudi Arabia.

Countries that value secularism, freedom, democracy, humanism will outperform those that don't - like countries that favour religious doctrine over a secular constitution.



Isn't it awesome to live in a secular humanistic society where you have the freedom to say such stupid and critisize the hand that feeds you, without having to worry about being called a heretic and undergoing physical punishment or even death?



A secular constitution gives you that.
It gives you the freedom to worship any imaginary deity you wish.



Right, right.

Life is so horrible in secular humanist democracies.

The problem with having logical debate with "dad" has to do with "dad"s view of the world. In the world according to "dad" everything we now about the natural world does not apply to anything in the past especially in reference to what the bible teaches. Nuclear decay which we measure today decayed differently in the past so there is no way to date anything outside of our time. Genetics does not act the same way in the past either. Actually nothing works like it does today except for exactly what is stated in the bible and only what is stated in the bible.
Up is down and down is up depending on what is needed. And words change there meaning to depending on the need. In "dad"s wonderland all natural laws and word meanings can change depending on the need.
 

dad

Undefeated
Nuclear decay which we measure today decayed differently in the past

?? Really? Can you prove there was radioactive decay here at all? That would be a good start.
so there is no way to date anything outside of our time.
True.

Genetics does not act the same way in the past either.
Not that we know. In fact there is no genetics that is usable from the pre KT era is there? So how do you presume to tell us what it was or was not like?
Up is down and down is up depending on what is needed. And words change there meaning to depending on the need. In "dad"s wonderland all natural laws and word meanings can change depending on the need.
Truth be told, your concept of reality and truth needs a serious adjustment.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
?? Really? Can you prove there was radioactive decay here at all? That would be a good start.

I like this technique. First you say that radioactive decay in our time was not the same as in bible time. Now you just deny its existence. Unfortunately that does not make reality go away no matter how much you want it to. But you do not prove things in science that is for mathematics. Evidence supporting theories is science. But here is a starter for you on radioactive decay to get you started and much more at that website for you to read.

"The radioactivity of a substance is measured in the number of nuclei that decay per unit time. The standard international unit or radioactivity is called a becquerel (abbreviated Bq), which is equal to one disintegration per second (dps). Radioactivity is also measured in curies, a historical unit based on the number of disintegration per second in one gram of radium-226 (37 billion). Hence 1 curie = 37 billion Bq. One picocurie (a trillionth of a curie) = 0.037 Bq, and 1 Bq = 27 picocuries. Radioactivity is also measured in disintegration per minute (dpm). One dpm = 1/60 Bq."
www.ieer.org/resource/classroom/measuring-radiation-terminology/
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Since you live in a fantasy world how would you ever know. You don't.
I would be perfectly willing to have a conversation with dad, but it is rather pointless since he does not understand the concept of evidence (assuming that he is being honest). He might even understand the concept, but I don't see how he could honestly make any of his claims if he did. He could show me wrong by demonstrating a complete understanding of the concept. But personally I think he knows enough to realize that he has to keep himself ignorant of what is and what is not evidence. If he understood he might have to (gasp!!!) admit that there was evidence contrary to his beliefs and none for them.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
I would be perfectly willing to have a conversation with dad, but it is rather pointless since he does not understand the concept of evidence (assuming that he is being honest). He might even understand the concept, but I don't see how he could honestly make any of his claims if he did. He could show me wrong by demonstrating a complete understanding of the concept. But personally I think he knows enough to realize that he has to keep himself ignorant of what is and what is not evidence. If he understood he might have to (gasp!!!) admit that there was evidence contrary to his beliefs and none for them.
His world would fall apart.
 

dad

Undefeated
I like this technique. First you say that radioactive decay in our time was not the same as in bible time.
No. I said we do not know if there was decay in a different nature in the past. I never said there was and that it was not the same. Why make stuff up?

Now you just deny its existence.
Again, no. I said we do not know. Now if you claim there was radioactive decay and could prove it, well, fine. I could work with that. Why can't you?

Unfortunately that does not make reality go away no matter how much you want it to. But you do not prove things in science that is for mathematics. Evidence supporting theories is science. But here is a starter for you on radioactive decay to get you started and much more at that website for you to read.

"The radioactivity of a substance is measured in the number of nuclei that decay per unit time. The standard international unit or radioactivity is called a becquerel (abbreviated Bq), which is equal to one disintegration per second (dps). Radioactivity is also measured in curies, a historical unit based on the number of disintegration per second in one gram of radium-226 (37 billion). Hence 1 curie = 37 billion Bq. One picocurie (a trillionth of a curie) = 0.037 Bq, and 1 Bq = 27 picocuries. Radioactivity is also measured in disintegration per minute (dpm). One dpm = 1/60 Bq."
www.ieer.org/resource/classroom/measuring-radiation-terminology/
How foolish to post that. No one asked about or questioned present nature decay at all. Of course we have it now. You kidding?
 
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