sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I have this niggling thing in the back of my head that “spiritual but not religious” means “I can’t be bothered to wrestle with the doctrine, the ritual and the people.”
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Have them make for me a tabernacle...
- Thread starter IndigoChild5559
- Start date
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I have to disagree. Many, many have been hurt by the church, and that’s why they move away from religion and don’t go back.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Yeah, but don’t you think the many young people who don’t come to worship are looking for some perfect, pie-in-the-sky thing? People aren’t perfect, and most people “go through the motions” in worship, because it’s just dang hard to put that much work into a spiritual experience. And many have never been taught how to do that! I think much of this whining about “authenticity” on the part of non-churchgoing youth is judgmentalism, because they don’t understand that religion isn’t just about “heartfelt” — much as it ought to be — it’s also about habit. it’s both/and. I credit their “radar” in being able to pick out what’s not “authentic,” but I think they’re being too quick to judge an imperfect humanity.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Then you’re not looking hard enough. Religion is the spiritual expression of of community — and the Bible is rife with expressions of community and relationship. Families, peoples, nations, disciples, multitudes, cities — the whole bible is about the community of humankind.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
And that 40-70% who cannot “get there” seems at the time like an awful lot of people...
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Wish every parishioner felt like you do...
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
But isn’t God tacitly acknowledged in the act, itself?
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Quite honestly, I think that the learning curve for Judaism presents a unique challenge. There is a lot to remember and a lot of detail to the ritual. Getting passed that definitely takes practice, and some of us ( like @IndigoChild5559 ) seem to have a natural talent for that. And I think you make a good point about needing "both/and". And this is where I am flawed... I can't do ritual out of habit, and that makes my observance rather weak. It's something I am working on, but it will always be my own weakness. If I don't feel it, in the moment, I am not inclined to do it.
But that's me.
Regarding young people? No, I don't notice anything pie-in-the-sky. I see genuine curiosity which is discouraged intentionally by some and unintentionally by others. But this is all from a Jewish perspective. I don't often chat with non-Jewish children about religion. And I actually don't chat often with any children about it directly. I just listen and pay attention to the children who attend services or who are in my home while I'm studying or who want to participate in the "grown-up" conversations at dinner parties and such.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
It doesn't have to be to complete the commandment, that's the Halacha, Jewish Law, if I remember. It's one the reasons that specific commandment is special. I'd have to review it to be sure...
But yes, ( again, if I remember ) on a deeper level, the idea is that the money belongs to G-d, and giving it to a unknown needy person completes the circuit, so to speak, of the divine will for G-d's resources.
Edit to Add:
Here's what I'm reading now...
Charity - Halachipedia
This part seems to imply that the commandment is valid without acknowledgment of G-d: ( emphasis mine ):
For the Jewish Person, it depends on the receiver there is no Bracha, therefore, no acknowledgement of G-d is required.
For the non-Jewish Person, if it is completed because it's moral ( aka no acknowledgement of G-d ), it's still valid.
Yet another edit....
And that means... tzedakah isn't worship... there's no bracha, I guess I was wrong about it @IndigoChild5559 ... It was a bad example after all...
Last edited:
Audie
Veteran Member
Of course: we are human.
But in this case, I do try to look at what
is actually there, not at a supernatural being
projected from my mind. I don’t see how one
is actually appreciating nature by looking at
something that is not there.
You really never noticed this?
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I just never thought about it in those particular terms. Of course I noticed it, though. I suppose i don’t see “God’s creation” in quite the same way most people do.” I don’t think of God as a Super Personality. I think of God as The creative Principle. So it’s a little less cartoonish for me. And my Shamanic teachings have provided a vehicle for me to think of all nature as sacred and interconnected.
Audie
Veteran Member
Clearly you thoughts go deeper than a quick paragraph.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Pages, Plus graphs, charts, pictures, and artists’ renditions. And several appendices.
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
For many it would be rather they need another way. There are so many ways to get to a state of peace. Including the deeper best way from Christ himself.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
On page 17, L'cha Dodi, does your congregation turn around?
If so, how would your Rabbi or the Cantor explain this to a curious young person? Would the explanation be encouraging or discouraging devotion to God and regular participation with the congregation in the future?
Jeremiah Ames
Well-Known Member
What a lovely reply!
Yes, the passage of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is indeed soothing to the heart, full of hope. It speaks of a time where some of the troubles of our own day will be past, specifically our struggles with sin and doubts about God.
It says that the Law will be written on our hearts, meaning that no one will need to teach us right from wrong, and that we will have the needed desire to obey it so that we won't sin.
It also says that no one will need to teach us about God -- that EVERYONE will know God. And that also means that it is more than just believing in God, but it means KNOWING God, experiencing him on a personal level. So, no atheists, no agnostics, not even occasional doubts.
When will this be? Obviously it is a prophecy of the future. Like many Jews, I believe it is the world to come. Other Jews believe it is during the messianic era.
I definitely disagree with Christians that it is post-Jesus. It is simply not true today.
I am surprised and saddened that you haven't been able to find a church that studies the Bible deeply and would appreciate the Jeremiah passage. I know they exist -- it must just be your area which is lacking.
You might try a synagogue in your area, as a righteous Gentile. A Reform Temple in particular would be very open to you attending. Most have Torah studies on Saturday morning before the Shabbat service starts. Like any faith community, there are going to be those Jews who study and those who don't, those Jews who appreciate Torah, and those who don't, those who are spiritual and observant, and those who aren't. Like anything, you have to take the orange, suck out the juice, and spit out the pits, as it's written.
I enjoyed your wonderful response immensely.
Thank you for sharing.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Yes, we turn around to greet the Shabbat bride. It's very poetic. It shows devotion to God to observe the Shabbat as we are commanded.
Why do you ask?
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I personally have hard time explaining this practice without getting too mystical. I'm curious how a Reform or Conservative Rabbi would explain it, because, the Reform and Conservative congregations I am familiar with usually avoid or discourage teaching young people anything mystical.
amorphous_constellation
Well-Known Member
Hm, maybe, maybe not. Actually, I think maybe either term can be hidden behind, as human ingenuity tends to be predispositioned to twist things into a format of greater ease. However, I think that perhaps the term 'spiritual' might imply a more experiential relation to the metaphysical, whereas the term 'religion' may imply that all spiritual experience is quickened into doctrine. In other words, in a religion you are probably more likely to be required to read about someone else's adventures rather than have them. It implies that a long time ago, people with good imagination and a connection to the divine laid out all the rules that you should have, rules that last right up to this modern moment and into perpetuity. Now if you're 'spiritual' and not religious, that means you might potentially have more metaphysical ground to tackle. That's because no religion is telling you exactly where a foundation is, it's up to you to explore and decide for yourself what you make of things, which would be hardly a cop out
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You can shoot a PM over to Rabbi O and he can give you the Reform understanding. I think we are very lucky to have two rabbis in the forum. My *guess* is that he would say it's not mystical, but simply poetic, as I myself suggested to you.