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Soul and body

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
The Orthodox Christians believe that a human soul is a creation of God and the purpose of the soul is to govern the human body, which is also a creation. If the soul is a ceation, then it's useless. The Orthodox Christians got that wrong, in my opinion. The soul is not a creation. But Orthodox claim it is a creation and it is full of sin and can go to hell. They think the soul is born and can die. All the point of christianity is included in a created mortal soul. They think that a mortal soul can win over death only by joining God. So God is the only thing alive and us we are dead.

What questions can we never answer yes to?
 

syo

Well-Known Member
If you murdered someone but died and with your body decayed, is there any point to clone a genetic exact to stand trial?

A soul is necessary as it represents the You even when your body (which serves as your image for other humans to reckon you) is gone. It guarantees it's the same you to stand trial after a resurrection.
I see. But why is so necessary to have this you? Why the trial? Why not just body? It is useless, in my opinion.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
But the question is more of cosmogony. In cosmogony, are souls created or are they immortal as God is? The Orthodox believe the souls are creations and they are not divine. In my opinion, the souls are divine and immortal. Purely cosmogony question.
Oh sure. You are welcome to your discussions about imaginary things. I suppose Flying Spaghetti Monster is green and the Unicorn is pink.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
The fact that there is a self at all creates the mystery. Self is proveable by your own inner experience.

I myself sincerely doubt that electrical activity can produce a self. Thus the need for the self to be explained.

The self as illusion is pure nonsense. Physicalists need the self to be an illusion to satisfy their explanations. They keep talking about brain states and correlates to consciousness. But a purely physical explanation is none forthcoming. You would have to deny self with all it's functionalities and capacities. You would have to ignore self altogether and they do.

The self goes beyond mere consciousness. I call that beyond the soul. However I don't consider Christianity a reality.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
The Orthodox Christians believe that a human soul is a creation of God and the purpose of the soul is to govern the human body, which is also a creation. If the soul is a ceation, then it's useless. The Orthodox Christians got that wrong, in my opinion. The soul is not a creation. But Orthodox claim it is a creation and it is full of sin and can go to hell. They think the soul is born and can die. All the point of christianity is included in a created mortal soul. They think that a mortal soul can win over death only by joining God. So God is the only thing alive and us we are dead.


The Prajapita Brahmakumaris also believe in a supreme Soul or God Shiva known as Jehovah,Allah, Ahura Mazda in other religions, and they consider God to be an incorporeal point of light.

They also consider the human soul to be a conscious point of light, and the soul is the master of the temporary body.

The difference between the Brahmakumari theological doctrine and the Orthodox Christian doctrine is that the Brahmakumaris consider the human soul too, like God, being of an eternal nature and not subject to creation or destruction.

Brahma Kumaris - Soul

"To reflect on your own eternal identity and your original identity, to know yourself on those terms and to remain in such thoughts about yourself, is said to be thinking of yourself as a spiritual being. This is called the stage of soul consciousness." ~Mohini Panjabi, Prajapita Brahmakumaris


The Brahmakumaris also consider Jesus to be a prophet like figure but not God. This is similar to the views in the Jehovah's Witnesses, Islam and Bahai religion.
 

Angel_Isaac

New Member
The Orthodox Christians believe that a human soul is a creation of God and the purpose of the soul is to govern the human body, which is also a creation. If the soul is a ceation, then it's useless. The Orthodox Christians got that wrong, in my opinion. The soul is not a creation. But Orthodox claim it is a creation and it is full of sin and can go to hell. They think the soul is born and can die. All the point of christianity is included in a created mortal soul. They think that a mortal soul can win over death only by joining God. So God is the only thing alive and us we are dead.
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
The Orthodox Christians believe that a human soul is a creation of God and the purpose of the soul is to govern the human body, which is also a creation. If the soul is a ceation, then it's useless. The Orthodox Christians got that wrong, in my opinion. The soul is not a creation. But Orthodox claim it is a creation and it is full of sin and can go to hell. They think the soul is born and can die. All the point of christianity is included in a created mortal soul. They think that a mortal soul can win over death only by joining God. So God is the only thing alive and us we are dead.

I'm not sure souls can die, actually.

A soul (think of it as hitodama) is basically immortal spiritual framework. I know people are concerned about overpopulation, but you needn't be. Souls never run out. This is because reproduction is not merely on the body level but the soul level. And no, I'm not sure about reincarnation, but I suppose the same soul could decide to enter another body being formed. The soul essentially creates a body around itself, forming itself as male or female. If a soul ever really awoke, people could probably change physical form or become immortal. The soul otherwise builds an embryo around itself, lives a life and then the body dies. The soul possibly rejoins a pool or Well of Souls.
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
The fact that there is a self at all creates the mystery. Self is proveable by your own inner experience.

I myself sincerely doubt that electrical activity can produce a self. Thus the need for the self to be explained.

The self as illusion is pure nonsense. Physicalists need the self to be an illusion to satisfy their explanations. They keep talking about brain states and correlates to consciousness. But a purely physical explanation is none forthcoming. You would have to deny self with all it's functionalities and capacities. You would have to ignore self altogether and they do.

The self goes beyond mere consciousness. I call that beyond the soul. However I don't consider Christianity a reality.

You seriously doubt that material things make up a "self"?
Why?
You are aware that research so often shows us that
"common sense" or what we take for logic, or intuitive,
are not. So much is deeply counter intuitive!
Certainly the connection between thought and emotion
and t he physical brain is there.
Is that all there is? So far there is no trace of evidence
of any kind that there is something more.
People used to think there was some sort of vital force
that made things alive. (Well, some still do)

I wonder how you figure it, dismissing out of hand
a physical explanation of "self" and accept as fact
that there is a soul, for which there is not the faintest
trace of datum point one to indicate it is there.

Any idea you could share on how you figure that?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I'm not sure souls can die, actually.

A soul (think of it as hitodama) is basically immortal spiritual framework. I know people are concerned about overpopulation, but you needn't be. Souls never run out. This is because reproduction is not merely on the body level but the soul level. And no, I'm not sure about reincarnation, but I suppose the same soul could decide to enter another body being formed. The soul essentially creates a body around itself, forming itself as male or female. If a soul ever really awoke, people could probably change physical form or become immortal. The soul otherwise builds an embryo around itself, lives a life and then the body dies. The soul possibly rejoins a pool or Well of Souls.

Similar to what I asked another poster-how can you be
so sure there is a soul? I've seen a wombat, but I've
seen no data concerning the soul.
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
Here is one: Is it ever ok to end a sentence with a preposition?

Yes, you can end a sentence with a preposition. In fact, in some situations, you have to end a sentence with a preposition because there is no other choice.

Many native English speakers are taught that they shouldn’t end a sentence with a preposition, but that’s actually more a matter of style rather than a grammatical rule.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Yes, you can end a sentence with a preposition. In fact, in some situations, you have to end a sentence with a preposition because there is no other choice.

Many native English speakers are taught that they shouldn’t end a sentence with a preposition, but that’s actually more a matter of style rather than a grammatical rule.

I know. Mom was a professor of English Literature, and
didnt let me get away with much.

It was a dumb rule to apply to English, and it is mostly
forgotten now.

I dont know who thought of it, but Mom had a sentence
"What did you bring that book I did not want to be read to out of up for?"
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
In cosmogony, are souls created or are they immortal as God is? The Orthodox believe the souls are creations and they are not divine. In my opinion, the souls are divine and immortal. Purely cosmogony question.

My beliefs as a Hindu, summarized (Krishna speaking in the Bhagavad Gita):
  • Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
  • That which pervades the entire body, know it to be indestructible. No one can cause the destruction of the imperishable soul.
  • Only the material body is perishable; the embodied soul within is indestructible, immeasurable, and eternal. Therefore, fight, O descendent of Bharat.
  • Neither of them is in knowledge—the one who thinks the soul can slay and the one who thinks the soul can be slain. For truly, the soul neither kills nor can it be killed.
  • The soul is neither born, nor does it ever die; nor having once existed, does it ever cease to be. The soul is without birth, eternal, immortal, and ageless. It is not destroyed when the body is destroyed.
It goes without saying then, that the soul is divine. Actually the Upanishads do say that. :D
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Jai, that is Prabhupada's translation. This is the correct translation as I read it as an Advaitist atheist Hindu. I think that Krishna is referring to Brahman here. No word for soul has been used in these verses. Words mentioned in blue do not exist. You can check the synonyms in AS IT IS itself. :D
  • Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
  • That which pervades the entire body, know it to be indestructible. No one can cause the destruction of the imperishable soul.
  • Only the material body is perishable; the embodied soul within is indestructible, immeasurable, and eternal. Therefore, fight, O descendent of Bharat.
  • Neither of them is in knowledge—the one who thinks it the soul can slay and the one who thinks it the soul can be slain. For truly, it the soul neither kills nor can it be killed.
  • It The soul is neither born, nor does it ever die; nor having once existed, does it ever cease to be. It The soul is without birth, eternal, immortal, and ageless. It is not destroyed when the body is destroyed.
 
Last edited:

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
You seriously doubt that material things make up a "self"?
Why?
You are aware that research so often shows us that
"common sense" or what we take for logic, or intuitive,
are not. So much is deeply counter intuitive!
Certainly the connection between thought and emotion
and t he physical brain is there.
Is that all there is? So far there is no trace of evidence
of any kind that there is something more.
People used to think there was some sort of vital force
that made things alive. (Well, some still do)

I wonder how you figure it, dismissing out of hand
a physical explanation of "self" and accept as fact
that there is a soul, for which there is not the faintest
trace of datum point one to indicate it is there.

Any idea you could share on how you figure that?

I don't see how electrochemical reactions can produce a self and all its inner qualities. Matter and energy have no special qualities of self and consciousness.

The soul is physical but not material I would imagine. It's outside of observation. I am forced to appeal to something beyond the material. A particular arrangement of molecules does not result in consciousness is my bet.

The self is consistently the same and consistently present throughout life. Electrochemical reactions and properties are always changing.

I have no doubt that electrochemical reactions deeply affect our moods and perceptions. The brain tunes us into reality but it is probably not the self.

My bet is that there is a mental world of far different qualities then biological properties.

I am quite sure that the language that describes the soul is none so compatible with the language of biology. Yet the soul describes perfectly the kinds of things I experience.

Biology will never get to examine the intrinsic nature of a private thought. They are starkly different.

I am a self and there is nothing in biology that rises to meet the reality of a self.





Something extra is clearly going on.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I don't see how electrochemical reactions can produce a self and all its inner qualities. Matter and energy have no special qualities of self and consciousness.

The soul is physical but not material I would imagine. It's outside of observation. I am forced to appeal to something beyond the material. A particular arrangement of molecules does not result in consciousness is my bet.

The self is consistently the same and consistently present throughout life. Electrochemical reactions and properties are always changing.

I have no doubt that electrochemical reactions deeply affect our moods and perceptions. The brain tunes us into reality but it is probably not the self.

My bet is that there is a mental world of far different qualities then biological properties.

I am quite sure that the language that describes the soul is none so compatible with the language of biology. Yet the soul describes perfectly the kinds of things I experience.

Biology will never get to examine the intrinsic nature of a private thought. They are starkly different.

I am a self and there is nothing in biology that rises to meet the reality of a self.

Something extra is clearly going on.


"I dont see how" is not much of an argument about
how biochemistry works. You know that.

. Matter and energy have no special qualities of self
and consciousness
.

Its five a.m. and I feel hardly conscious. :D

But really that is just an assertion of undefined facts not
in evidence. You dont know that, you cannot possibly know that.

Its the same as the old "vital force" idea about life, now
moved out a notch to "consciousness".

The soul is physical but not material I would imagine

That is a lot of imagining! Including that there is a soul
which that latter is definitely in the "facts not in evidence" dept!

The self is consistently the same and consistently present throughout life.

Huh. I'd not say that at all. I have changed a lot, and continue to.
Same body,but a lot of changes in mind and body.

Electrochemical reactions and properties are always changing.


Physical laws are about the most stable thing there is!

You make some more assertions of things that
so seem to you, but for which no info can be supplied.

Anyway, gotta get on with my day.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
1. I don't see how electrochemical reactions can produce a self and all its inner qualities. Matter and energy have no special qualities of self and consciousness.
2. I am forced to appeal to something beyond the material. A particular arrangement of molecules does not result in consciousness is my bet.
3. The self is consistently the same and consistently present throughout life. Electrochemical reactions and properties are always changing.
4. My bet is that there is a mental world of far different qualities then biological properties.
5. Yet the soul describes perfectly the kinds of things I experience.
6. Biology will never get to examine the intrinsic nature of a private thought. They are starkly different.
7. I am a self and there is nothing in biology that rises to meet the reality of a self.
8. Something extra is clearly going on.
1. This not understanding the truth is for two reasons. a. Religious prejudice about existence of soul and God. b. Perhaps a lack of study in biochemistry. Energy/electrochemical world also has its properties.
2. Why are you forced to appeal to something beyond material? Who or what is forcing you to do that?
3. Agree or not, a particular arrangement of molecules (brought about by evolution) has resulted in your consciousness and self. You are betting on a wrong card.
4. Yeah, your self is constant because of your memory saved at the deepest level. Were you to have an accident or a disease, you may forget who you are. It acts just like the computer hard disk. Important things are better safe-guarded than the memory of a face of stranger who passed by you when you were going to the office. A childhood memory is perhaps the best safe-guarded which some people remember even at the time of their death. Mental world has the same properties as the biological world.
5. You experience and thought arise from your sensory organs and are interpreted by the white and grey cells in the brain. Soul is a pre-judice, an idea before it is analyzed.
6. Your most private thoughts and imaginations also arise in the brain.
7. You (or me) are just a collection of molecules (basically an arrangement of energy) which will disintegrate and disperse after death.
8. Yeah, something extra is going on. It is the religious views in your family, in your society and your church. For all your life you are exposed to them, and naturally, they alter your thoughts and do not let you see the truth. In Hinduism this is known as 'Maya', illusion. 'mirage', ('mriga-trishna' - the thirst of a deer lost in a desert and sees a lake).

images
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I do not go by any translation, though I may take help from many. I check things by myself. :)

I’d love to get to the point of reading the original Sanskrit. I can tease out some words, and have found especially with Prabhupada’s translations that’s not what the original says.
 
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