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Simplified Psychology: Conservative and Progressive Ideology

joe1776

Well-Known Member
No, you are confused. Your argument is inductive, thus it can never be 100% proven. Thus it is not inevitable.

If my two premises are true, my conclusion is a logical deduction.

Evolution is considered a fact by scientists but they are not absolutely certain about anything. If my premises are true, my conclusion is a fact just like evolution.

You can never be certain with incomplete information, and definitely not when much of the information you have is ambiguous, exists as part of a complex system with dynamic feedback loops with an unknown number of variables that may change in an unpredictable manner.
You strung together some terms that apply to systems in general that, in the end, are meaningless in this context.

I gave you seventeen examples of moral progress for an argument on the Internet. With time, I could have given you ten times that number.

Given that this scenario is dealing with uncertainty, you can't even assign a meaningful probability to it being correct.
Irrelevant since assigning meaningful probabilities is not possible in most predictions.

Your conclusion requires a simple, bounded system with complete information and no chance of cognitive error. Unless these are present, your probability is <100%.
That's nonsense.

Unsupported opinion = worthless.
That's another logical deduction. If you don't understand that a nuclear war is not itself evidence of a moral backslide for the average human, I can't help you.

You could argue that, in the event of a nuclear disaster, humans would ignore their conscience and turn on each other. But your only evidence for that would have to be the Mad Max movies or the like.

Silly reply that belies a repeated failure to comprehend a basic weaknesses in your argument. No point in explaining again though.
Your what if speculation about World War Two is as silly as most conspiracy theories because it assumes that one single event was crucial and further that if that event hadn't happened, everything else would have remained the same.

Let's assume that Hitler took England. That would have changed the way the war played out but it would not have changed the outcome.

Adolf Hitler was bound to lose the war because he was destined to make the same mistakes that all highly arrogant tyrants have made through the centuries:

-- they won't listen to their advisers unless told what they want to hear
-- they over-estimate themselves
-- they underestimate their enemies
-- they always overreach
 
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If my two premises are true, my conclusion is a logical deduction.

Then you have just busted your own argument. As a deductive argument it's invalid.

It is possible for both premises to be true and the conclusion false. I already pointed this out to you earlier in the thread. There is no reason to assume that the trend must necessarily continue until the point you propose. You yourself have said there is potentially an 'upper limit' so your theory isn't utopian, yet if there is an upper limit, it may be short of 'global harmony'.

Secondly, you need to show your premises are true, which you do inductively, and thus you can never be certain they are correct.

If the premises are not 100% certain to be true, and the deductive argument is invalid, you are simply wrong. That's it.

You strung together some terms that apply to systems in general that, in the end, are meaningless in this context.

Nope, they are all perfectly relevant, and perfectly relevant 2 times over re: the brain, and human society. Complex systems, dynamic feedback, unknown number of variables, changes may be unpredictable.

Which of those are meaningless re these systems?

Irrelevant since assigning meaningful probabilities is not possible in most predictions.

It's certainly not irrelevant if you claim inevitability and you are claiming certainty.

That's another logical deduction. If you don't understand that a nuclear war is not itself evidence of a moral backslide for the average human, I can't help you.

It's not a valid deduction.

If you destroyed the societies that are most morally 'advanced' according to your beliefs then it's certainly relevant, and what the consequences would be for the global order are uncertain.

That's nonsense.

Nope, certainty requires complete information. You can't be certain if there are unknown variables.

Let's assume that Hitler took England. That would have changed the way the war played out but it would not have changed the outcome.

If Hitler had conquered Britain, or Britain had sued for peace before the USSR was invaded and USA joined the war then the war would have been over. Of course it would have changed the outcome.
 
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joe1776

Well-Known Member
Then you have just busted your own argument. As a deductive argument it's invalid.

It is possible for both premises to be true and the conclusion false. I already pointed this out to you earlier in the thread. There is no reason to assume that the trend must necessarily continue until the point you propose. You yourself have said there is potentially an 'upper limit' so your theory isn't utopian, yet if there is an upper limit, it may be short of 'global harmony'.

Secondly, you need to show your premises are true, which you do inductively, and thus you can never be certain they are correct.

If the premises are not 100% certain to be true, and the deductive argument is invalid, you are simply wrong. That's it.



Nope, they are all perfectly relevant, and perfectly relevant 2 times over re: the brain, and human society. Complex systems, dynamic feedback, unknown number of variables, changes may be unpredictable.

Which of those are meaningless re these systems?



It's certainly not irrelevant if you claim inevitability and you are claiming certainty.



It's not a valid deduction.

If you destroyed the societies that are most morally 'advanced' according to your beliefs then it's certainly relevant, and what the consequences would be for the global order are uncertain.



Nope, certainty requires complete information. You can't be certain if there are unknown variables.



If Hitler had conquered Britain, or Britain had sued for peace before the USSR was invaded and USA joined the war then the war would have been over. Of course it would have changed the outcome.
I read your post and found it repetitive. We've already covered this ground. I was aware that you were unconvinced by my previous arguments. They weren't written with that hope in mind. I write for unbiased lurkers.
 
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I read your post and found it repetitive. We've already covered this ground. I was aware that you were unconvinced by my previous arguments. They weren't written with that hope in mind. I write for unbiased lurkers.

The unbiased lurkers can see your deductive argument is invalid (thus worthless) which means you have a fundamental flaw in your reasoning as you believed it deductively valid. They understand inductive arguments you also rely on automatically rule out certainty and thus inevitability, and they can see you don't understand what complex systems are and why they matter, and that you don't understand the difference between complete and incomplete information, or certainty and uncertainty, and that you can't even begin to support your theory of inevitability in light of these factors.

You've communicated that rather well to them, I agree, especially when paired with the old "I could refute them if I want to, but I just don't want to" act ;)
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
One concern I have about the concept of universal health care, is it assumes we are all sickly mutant humans. It also assumes nobody is healthy. It is a fatalist social construct that has brain washed the masses. The statistics tell us that that about 10% of the population uses 90% of the health resources. The idea is how do you scam the 90% of the population, to pay for something they do not need? You pretend they are all need to participate in health care, or else.

An analogy is the cell phone. Very few people had the cell phones 20 years ago, demonstrating these are not essential to life. Yet today, cells phones are now imperative to so many people. All the gimmicks added each cycle, to sell new cell phones, become new annual dependencies. Health care appears to have become a similar cultural consensual dependency, based on a negative and social paranoia. With a cell phone the dependency makes it possible to get people to spend $1000 each years for a new oracle.

If the mass wants to move down this lane of dependency, I prefer a free market approach since people should have choices, instead of only Big Brother assigning dependencies for all.
Today's Washington Post has an article I'd like you to see. Economists say that EVERY American family is paying the equivalent of $ 8,000 in annual taxes for the current free-market healthcare system.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...ax-under-us-health-system-top-economists-say/
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
My purpose in posting it was to test the argument against critics.

Predictions don't necessarily involve fatalistic attitudes.

That doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not sure what you mean but could you define "straight line progress" for me so that I can tell if it has anything at all to do with the argument offered in the OP?

What it mean is that, history is NOT an inevitable linear progression and that naive optimism will not make it so, although I do appreciate your positive attitude.

I totally understand why a morally absolute outcome is reassuring and comforting. I get it... I’ve been there before.

It’s just a waste of your intellectual and creative talents in the present day. Your ideals aren’t necessarily wrong, but your focus is.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
What it mean is that, history is NOT an inevitable linear progression and that naive optimism will not make it so, although I do appreciate your positive attitude.

I totally understand why a morally absolute outcome is reassuring and comforting. I get it... I’ve been there before.

It’s just a waste of your intellectual and creative talents in the present day. Your ideals aren’t necessarily wrong, but your focus is.
If you're saying that if we were to put it on a graph humanity's moral progress would be a jagged line headed upward rather than a straight line, I don't know if that's true or not but it doesn't matter. All that matters is that it is headed upward and we have 2,000 years of reliable evidence to prove it.

Your opinion that my position reflects "naive optimism" is unsupported. Why is it naive optimism? Since you didn't offer a reason, I suspect you disagree with me but you aren't clear about why.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Today's Washington Post has an article I'd like you to see. Economists say that EVERY American family is paying the equivalent of $ 8,000 in annual taxes for the current free-market healthcare system.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...ax-under-us-health-system-top-economists-say/

This is because of Big Government; Obama Care, forced everyone to buy insurance for medical goods and services, even if they do not want them. This is not how the free market works. In the current system since everyone is forced to buy, there is no need for all the connected industries to cut costs or become more efficient, since they have mandatory customers no matter what they do. Picture if the government could force you to eat at a nasty restaurant once a week. Would they bother redecorating or improving the food if they get lots of forced customers either way?

Once the individual mandate is removed and people can opt out or they get to cherry pick coverage, and even use insurers across state lines, prices will become lower. If customers do not have to buy, the merchants have to find ways to get them in the door; lures and deals, Now we are forced to the door by the boot of Big Government. There is no need to give you a deal.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
This is because of Big Government; Obama Care, forced everyone to buy insurance for medical goods and services, even if they do not want them. This is not how the free market works. In the current system since everyone is forced to buy, there is no need for all the connected industries to cut costs or become more efficient, since they have mandatory customers no matter what they do. Picture if the government could force you to eat at a nasty restaurant once a week. Would they bother redecorating or improving the food if they get lots of forced customers either way?

Once the individual mandate is removed and people can opt out or they get to cherry pick coverage, and even use insurers across state lines, prices will become lower. If customers do not have to buy, the merchants have to find ways to get them in the door; lures and deals, Now we are forced to the door by the boot of Big Government. There is no need to give you a deal.
You think the problems with our healthcare system only began with Obamacare? Frankly, I think Obamacare stinks. It creates more profit for the healthcare and insurance industry. But the healhcare problem existed long before the Obama administration.

Here's the problem in a nutshell: All other things being equal, cheating is a useful strategy in any competition if you can get away with it. When we're discussing the competitive free market, we call the cheating "fraud."

The free market works fairly well when we have educated consumers spending their own money as we do when they buy cars because fraud is more difficult to get away with. However, in insured healthcare, the consumers don't know what they need and don't care how much it costs. Moreover, the insurance companies benefit from fraud since they can pass it along as a cost and add their profit margin on top.

People who might be reluctant to defraud the average citizen feel free to commit fraud against the deep pocket insurance companies. They include doctors, hospitals, malpractice lawyers and their clients and drug companies.

The free market is the wrong tool for the job because the healthcare industry doesn't have educated consumers spending their own money. Therefore, the fraud is out of control.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
You think the problems with our healthcare system only began with Obamacare? Frankly, I think Obamacare stinks. It creates more profit for the healthcare and insurance industry. But the healhcare problem existed long before the Obama administration.

Here's the problem in a nutshell: All other things being equal, cheating is a useful strategy in any competition if you can get away with it. When we're discussing the competitive free market, we call the cheating "fraud."

The free market works fairly well when we have educated consumers spending their own money as we do when they buy cars because fraud is more difficult to get away with. However, in insured healthcare, the consumers don't know what they need and don't care how much it costs. Moreover, the insurance companies benefit from fraud since they can pass it along as a cost and add their profit margin on top.

People who might be reluctant to defraud the average citizen feel free to commit fraud against the deep pocket insurance companies. They include doctors, hospitals, malpractice lawyers and their clients and drug companies.

The free market is the wrong tool for the job because the healthcare industry doesn't have educated consumers spending their own money. Therefore, the fraud is out of control.

All these things are true. But you forgot to add the straw that stirs the drink, which was Big government forcing people to buy. The consumer is a prisoner of the fraud, in a way they cannot escape. Government force has made this all fraud possible via citizen prisoners.

What has happened is something similar to the Stockholm syndrome, where the medical consumer prisoners, guarded by the government mandate, begin to relate to their fraud ridden captors. The result is the consumer participates in the fraud; increased hypochondria, and an increase need for over treatment for minor things. The result is medical cost inflation way exceeding national inflation.

The mandate was found to be unconstitutional. The Government cannot force consumers to buy goods and services from their donors. The work around was to call this forced consumption a tax. But since Trump got rid of the tax, it is no longer a tax and is now an unconstitutional breech of the free market. Like in the Stockholm syndrome, it may take some time to debrief the captors since they have developed bad habits due to their captivity. Eventually they will not participate in fraud and the free market will change things.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
All these things are true. But you forgot to add the straw that stirs the drink, which was Big government forcing people to buy. The consumer is a prisoner of the fraud, in a way they cannot escape. Government force has made this all fraud possible via citizen prisoners.

What has happened is something similar to the Stockholm syndrome, where the medical consumer prisoners, guarded by the government mandate, begin to relate to their fraud ridden captors. The result is the consumer participates in the fraud; increased hypochondria, and an increase need for over treatment for minor things. The result is medical cost inflation way exceeding national inflation.

The mandate was found to be unconstitutional. The Government cannot force consumers to buy goods and services from their donors. The work around was to call this forced consumption a tax. But since Trump got rid of the tax, it is no longer a tax and is now an unconstitutional breech of the free market. Like in the Stockholm syndrome, it may take some time to debrief the captors since they have developed bad habits due to their captivity. Eventually they will not participate in fraud and the free market will change things.
Im guessing you've never worked in health care and have never had to deal with insurance?
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
All these things are true. But you forgot to add the straw that stirs the drink, which was Big government forcing people to buy. The consumer is a prisoner of the fraud, in a way they cannot escape. Government force has made this all fraud possible via citizen prisoners.

What has happened is something similar to the Stockholm syndrome, where the medical consumer prisoners, guarded by the government mandate, begin to relate to their fraud ridden captors. The result is the consumer participates in the fraud; increased hypochondria, and an increase need for over treatment for minor things. The result is medical cost inflation way exceeding national inflation.

The mandate was found to be unconstitutional. The Government cannot force consumers to buy goods and services from their donors. The work around was to call this forced consumption a tax. But since Trump got rid of the tax, it is no longer a tax and is now an unconstitutional breech of the free market. Like in the Stockholm syndrome, it may take some time to debrief the captors since they have developed bad habits due to their captivity. Eventually they will not participate in fraud and the free market will change things.
You have been referring to BIG government.

How much power should a government have? I find this a simple question to answer. If the government is corrupt, ineffective or both, it should have no power. It should be abandoned.

I would abandon the US government just as soon as a more effective decision-making model can be found and tested. If the government is clean and effective, then it should have whatever power it needs to implement its policies.

The competitive free market has limited usefulness in the products segment of the economy only because we humans have yet to invent a governing model that is effective and free of corruption. Once we've done that, an entirely cooperative economic system (full socialism) will be possible. This will happen because a society is a essentially a cooperative endeavor and, as such, having its citizens compete for survival is a dumb idea because it weakens the society.

Even a poorly managed universal healthcare system will be superior to what we have now. A lot of waste would still remain, but better healthcare at a lower cost would result.

If your best argument is that a change in policy is against the law (unconstitutional), you're dragging bottom.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
You have been referring to BIG government.

How much power should a government have? I find this a simple question to answer. If the government is corrupt, ineffective or both, it should have no power. It should be abandoned.

I would abandon the US government just as soon as a more effective decision-making model can be found and tested. If the government is clean and effective, then it should have whatever power it needs to implement its policies.

The competitive free market has limited usefulness in the products segment of the economy only because we humans have yet to invent a governing model that is effective and free of corruption. Once we've done that, an entirely cooperative economic system (full socialism) will be possible. This will happen because a society is a essentially a cooperative endeavor and, as such, having its citizens compete for survival is a dumb idea because it weakens the society.

Even a poorly managed universal healthcare system will be superior to what we have now. A lot of waste would still remain, but better healthcare at a lower cost would result.

If your best argument is that a change in policy is against the law (unconstitutional), you're dragging bottom.

Against the Constitution means a checks and balance is being breeched which was designed to avoid corruption.

If government can force you to buy products, wouldn't this be a way for politicians and leaders to line their own pockets, under the guise of helping you?

As an example, If I was in charge and I could force everyone to buy an I-Phone, wouldn't Apple be grateful to me and/or owe me one? If Apple decided to raise the price to increase profits, knowing everyone still has to buy, all the citizens can do is complain. It would be unlawful for them not to allow themselves to be ripped off.

Part of the problem is our leaders have important jobs, yet they get paid peanuts relative to the free market for lessor jobs. An above average professional sports figure will make ten times more than the President. While lobbyist make more than most of the leaders,

The leaders can do the math and believe they are worth more than what they are paid. Did you ever wonder how they become rich on a civil servant salary? They find ways to make up the difference. If you go to a Socialist country like Cuba or Venezuela the leaders begin poor to middle class and become billionaires, so they can have the money and trimmings that fit the prestige of their power.

Consider how much the Clintons have made selling access. Once Hillary lost in 2016, the donations to the foundation have gone way down. The Constitution says they cannot force you to buy things, thereby taking away an easy scam from the leaders. The Clinton could not force anyone to buy access. They had to do it other ways closer to the free market, with Congress writing the laws that set dual standards for themselves and their own. It was not too long ago that Congress had made laws that allowed itself the luxury of insider trading, while making it illegal for everyone else. There are many such loopholes on the books, such as Biden and his Son. This is unethical but nobody has claimed it was illegal. Money laundering tax payer dollars via foreign aid is common practice.
 
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joe1776

Well-Known Member
...If government can force you to buy products, wouldn't this be a way for politicians and leaders to line their own pockets, under the guise of helping you?
You are being forced to buy roads, school, law enforcement, military protection and other stuff whether you use them or not. The Constitution doesn't prohibit us being forced to pay for those things.

The Constitution doesn't stop corruption. It only means one has to be a little more clever to get away with it.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
You are being forced to buy roads, school, law enforcement, military protection and other stuff whether you use them or not. The Constitution doesn't prohibit us being forced to pay for those things.

The Constitution doesn't stop corruption. It only means one has to be a little more clever to get away with it.

True the government forces us to buy roads and schools, but these things are not something the individual would normally buy, even f they could use them. Very few people can afford to buy a road or new bridge. Health care is different, since this is something an individual can afford, and therefore one does not need big brother to tell him what he can buy with his own money.

Obama Care got away with this, when it was called a tax by Judge Roberts. Trump got rid of the Obama tax, so now it is Unconstitutional.

One angle nobody has considered is ObamaCare, under Obama called the forced buying of health insurance a tax. Yet, this particular tax did not go into the Federal Treasury. Rather it was given directly to Private contractors, by the consumers, apart from Congressional appropriation.

In other words, one was force to pay a tax that the government never touches, thereby bypassing the entire government system. This is not normal, but was more like a big brother shakedown of the tax payer, directly to the donors, who then money launder to Congress as campaign donations. Anyone who has insurance does not give that money to the IRS but rather it goes to a private sector insurance company.

If this is Constitutional and not criminal, then Trump has a model for reducing the size of Government. The Citizens should be able to pay all their taxes, directly to end users, like they had to with health care. Taxes collected for road and schools can now bypass Congress and the government. This makes easier to reduce the size of government.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
True the government forces us to buy roads and schools, but these things are not something the individual would normally buy, even f they could use them. Very few people can afford to buy a road or new bridge. Health care is different, since this is something an individual can afford, and therefore one does not need big brother to tell him what he can buy with his own money.

Obama Care got away with this, when it was called a tax by Judge Roberts. Trump got rid of the Obama tax, so now it is Unconstitutional.

One angle nobody has considered is ObamaCare, under Obama called the forced buying of health insurance a tax. Yet, this particular tax did not go into the Federal Treasury. Rather it was given directly to Private contractors, by the consumers, apart from Congressional appropriation.

In other words, one was force to pay a tax that the government never touches, thereby bypassing the entire government system. This is not normal, but was more like a big brother shakedown of the tax payer, directly to the donors, who then money launder to Congress as campaign donations. Anyone who has insurance does not give that money to the IRS but rather it goes to a private sector insurance company.

If this is Constitutional and not criminal, then Trump has a model for reducing the size of Government. The Citizens should be able to pay all their taxes, directly to end users, like they had to with health care. Taxes collected for road and schools can now bypass Congress and the government. This makes easier to reduce the size of government.
You and I begin with different perceptions of government. You imply human intent (Big Brother) to what I see as a corrupted, inefficient decision-making system that is in need of replacement.
Moreover, you see value in laws like the Constitution and I don't. My attitude is that if the policy will be effective in improving the lives of its citizenry but it's unconstitutional, don't be stupid, amend the law.

I don't know what you mean when you talk about BIG government. Are you referring to its power? If so, that's a simple question for me. If the government is corrupt, ineffective or both it should have no power. It should be abandoned. If the government is clean and effective. Then it should have whatever power it needs to implement its decisions.

A society is a cooperative endeavor. The idea that its citizens should be made to compete in order to survive would be dumb if we knew how to manage an economy efficiently. Thus, for now the mixed economies are the best we can do. Worldwide, socialized healthcare has been proven to be more efficient, a better bargain, than the free market version.
 
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wellwisher

Well-Known Member
You and I begin with different perceptions of government. You imply human intent (Big Brother) to what I see as a corrupted, inefficient decision-making system that is in need of replacement.
Moreover, you see value in laws like the Constitution and I don't. My attitude is that if the policy will be effective in improving the lives of its citizenry but it's unconstitutional, don't be stupid, amend the law.

I don't know what you mean when you talk about BIG government. Are you referring to its power? If so, that's a simple question for me. If the government is corrupt, ineffective or both it should have no power. It should be abandoned. If the government is clean and effective. Then it should have whatever power it needs to implement its decisions.

A society is a cooperative endeavor. The idea that its citizens should be made to compete in order to survive would be dumb if we knew how to manage an economy efficiently. Thus, for now the mixed economies are the best we can do. Worldwide, socialized healthcare has been proven to be more efficient, a better bargain, than the free market version.

The Constitution is a set of laws and guidelines that help to make the government optimized and fair. Corruption in big government is usually a function of attempted changes in the Constitution, but that are not formally changed via the Constitution itself.

For example, Congress according to the Constitution is the branch of government that makes laws. The Democrats, to force environmental goals on everyone, handed off the Congressional power to make laws to unelected bureaucrats in the EPA. This bypassed the Constitution.

The EPA, who is not Congress and therefore not part of the Constitution, by an Amendment, expanded these law to ridiculous standards, that defied common sense practices. Much of the justification for expanding the EPA, was bureaucratic, since more rules and more laws means more EPA team members, more budget for the EPA and more power. This bureaucratic conflict in interest is where inefficiency begins. If Congress had to formally approve each law, to make a clean environment, there would be debate, the laws more thought out, and the end product more efficient, than one department growing itself annually.

Consider innovations like computers and internet. This is an example of the free market. These products in the free market have seen their price go down, quality go up over the past 25 years. A $1000 computer in 2000 is now equal to a cheap cell phone today, for under $100. This could never happen in government. There are no examples, I can think of, since government never turns a profit. It is always deficit and diminishing returns that requires constant infusion of taxes, including borrowing from the future. This is not a sustainable health care approach. We need quality to increase and price to fall, like TV's and computers.

Consider the definition of poverty. The average poor person in America, today, has free market things, that only the rich had 50 years ago, such as cars, TV, computers and cells phones. This is due to free market not government. Government spent $trillion and poverty levels did not change. The reason is the poverty bureaucrats want their departments to grow, not get smaller. A Free market provider would shrink if this was more competitive and cost effective.

The main reason the government sucks, in my opinion, is due to an election process that is media driven. This system appears to be optimized for people, who have actor skills, who can pretend to be statesmen, like an actor can pretend to be a TV doctor or lawyer. These acting and confidence skills are special skills, made for TV and media. However, special as they are, this does not always translate, to the practical skills needed to do the real job.

As an analogy, a TV doctor can convince many TV viewers that they have doctor skills, while also able to the bedside manner of the perfect ideal doctor. If you decided this the perfecter person to do a heart by-pass on you, you would quickly realize they are just a shell of a doctor.

This is the main reason the establishment hates Trump. Trump is a rough surface personality, less than them, but he has practical skills. He gets things done fast, threatening to betray how many shells and TV doctors are in high leadership positions

Moving the capital of Israel to Jerusalem had been talked about for decades and Trump does it in months. The reason for the delay is, no TV doctor, whats to be anywhere near a real operating room, less their image be tarnished with a reality check. Trump can operate and likes showing off his skills,

The Democrat Congress has devoted the last 3 years trying to take out Trump with drama and intrigue. This is what actors do best. They can effectively play to an audience, that thinks TV doctors are real, and what happened on TV is real life; collusion delusion.

This topic is about the psychological differences between the Conservative and Progressives. Progressive tend to be more on the surface, so the TV doctors, appeal to them. Practical skill is secondary. Trump is not the best TV doctor, since he can be harsh and rude, which bothers the left. However, he has operating skills, which attracts the Right, since they sense the country needs operations and medical care and not just just a bunch of TV drama.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
@wellwisher

As expected, your perceptions of Donald Trump as a Conservative and mine as a Progressive are like night and day, completely different. Mine is based on my experience in two careers (I'm now retired), both of which involved negotiating deals for big money. My opponents in these negotiations were lawyers and real estate developers.

Negotiating is a competitive endeavor, like war. In war, giving your opponent insights into your strategic thinking would be a classic blunder. So, when Trump wrote "The Art of the Deal," he put the entire world on notice that he was an arrogant jerk who could be manipulated in negotiation.

In any negotiation, it's crucial that one must be expert in the value of the thing being negotiated because fair market value is the highest one should be willing to pay. Thus, one can't be an expert in real estate zoned for offices in Austin, Texas as well as an expert in real estate zoned for condominiums in New York City.

So, despite his brag, when he was elected, I knew Trump wasn't an expert in negotiations. When he pulled out of the deal with Iraq, I knew he wasn't an expert on the Mideast. Then he began pulling out of trade agreements and I knew he wasn't an expert on tariffs. World leaders knew it too.

Highly arrogant people are easy to beat in negotiations. The trick is to make them think that you bled profusely in accepting their terms while missing no opportunity to flatter them. Read the transcript of Trump's phone call with Zelensky again and take note of the excess of flattery Zelensky employs.This is how foreign leaders will take advantage of Donald.

During my lifetime, I never signed a contract with someone unless I felt like I'd be willing to do the deal on a handshake if necessary. I would never be involved in a deal with Trump because he doesn't have the integrity to honor it. Foreign leaders sense that. It would be like signing a non-aggression treaty with Adolf Hitler, a deal not worth the paper it's written on.

I predict the Chinese will honor their end of the trade agreement for now, hoping Donald will be reelected. But, long term they have no intention of honoring the agreement to stop the theft of our intellectual property.
 
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joe1776

Well-Known Member
Good questions. Maybe there is an answer.....Google time!! LOL
Nope. Dumb question since, with the possible exception of intelligence, there is no way to measure human traits in a "rigorous manner." However, we can observe behavior and compare people we know with others. For example, is there any doubt that Donald Trump is well-above average in arrogance?
 
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