Knock out argument for God's existence (from his vision)

God's judgment is a perfect absolute vision, when we try to judge ourselves, we find we can't really fully know we are, we can't even remember all the things we've done let alone accurately asses it all. We do our best, but it's like when a person draws a spaceship, it doesn't mean they can build or maintain one nor does the image fully represent a spaceship. It's the same with our vision of ourselves with respect to who we are. Moreover, who we are and vision go hand to hand, since, who we are is maintained by vision, but again our vision is not fully accurate. However, if there was no perfect vision of who we are, there is nothing to guess well we are getting closer to this or that, it becomes totally an illusion since it would exist no where.

dybmh said:

right... it's not a fact... thanks for pointing that out... I probably shouldn't have said it that way...

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Well! Good for you. Normally I'd expect to hear that such
things are facts.

If not a fact, what do you think it is?

Link said:

God's judgment is a perfect absolute vision,

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In order to successfully make that claim, you need to demonstrate:

1) That God exists.
2) That God's judgement is a perfect, absolute vision.

Link said:

when we try to judge ourselves, we find we can't really fully know we are, we can't even remember all the things we've done let alone accurately asses it all. We do our best, but it's like when a person draws a spaceship, it doesn't mean they can build or maintain one nor does the image fully represent a spaceship. It's the same with our vision of ourselves with respect to who we are. Moreover, who we are and vision go hand to hand, since, who we are is maintained by vision, but again our vision is not fully accurate.

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Absolutely none of this demonstrates the truth of any of your propositions. All you've really done is point out the existence of perception, illusion and uncertainty. You haven't demonstrated any of these things indicate anything relating to God, and you certainly haven't demonstrated the existence of a God.

Link said:

However, if there was no perfect vision of who we are, there is nothing to guess well we are getting closer to this or that, it becomes totally an illusion since it would exist no where.

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You still need to demonstrate:

1) That perfect vision is required.
2) That imperfect vision is insufficient to demonstrate reality.
3) That imperfect vision necessarily means we are an illusion sans perfect vision.
4) That God is required for perfect vision to exist.

PruePhillip said:

God offers no proof of His existence.
We believe through faith.
This faith is required to do a work in our life.

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The nonexistent always fails to provide proof of existence.
Which, btw, does provide a tidier explanation for why
we never hear from him and cannot detect him in any way.

Hence we have "faith" elevated to a prime virtue;
and of course, with proof there'd be no faith and and...

Not to say this means there is no god, but, likewise
says nothing for it either.

ImmortalFlame said:

In order to successfully make that claim, you need to demonstrate:

1) That God exists.
2) That God's judgement is a perfect, absolute vision.


Absolutely none of this demonstrates the truth of any of your propositions. All you've really done is point out the existence of perception, illusion and uncertainty. You haven't demonstrated any of these things indicate anything relating to God, and you certainly haven't demonstrated the existence of a God.

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The argument is used to show God exists.

ImmortalFlame said:

You still need to demonstrate:

1) That perfect vision is required.
2) That imperfect vision is insufficient to demonstrate reality.
3) That imperfect vision necessarily means we are an illusion sans perfect vision.
4) That God is required for perfect vision to exist.

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Who we are is not a physical thing. It's defined by vision. We may think foolishly it's us who define who we are, but on contemplation, we see we don't fully perceive who we are but are guessing or estimating who we are.

Vision and who we are going hand to hand is obvious, since, we aren't a physical thing whether you believe the physical brain generates this program or not, at the end, it's software in case it's the brain. But that idea is a vision, that software is a vision, but the brain can't be it, because we don't see fully who we nor does it have perfect judgment to give accuracy to who we are.

When we think of lesser intelligences then God, even if they a good understanding of who we are, they can't have precise full vision of who we are. Therefore who we are can only be maintained by God (Perfect Vision).

Link said:

The argument is used to show God exists.

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But it doesn't. And you can't use the proposition that God exists to demonstrate that God exists - that's circular reasoning.

ImmortalFlame said:

But it doesn't. And you can't use the proposition that God exists to demonstrate that God exists - that's circular reasoning.

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It's obvious when I say God's vision, I mean in the way "Without such a thing as perfect vision from an absolute being (hypothetically), then...."

Link said:

Who we are is not a physical thing.

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That's another claim you need to demonstrate. It's fairly trivial to point out that a human being is a physical thing.

Link said:

It's defined by vision. We may think foolishly it's us who define who we are, but on contemplation, we see we don't fully perceive who we are but are guessing or estimating who we are.

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Have you considered the possibility that who we are is to an extent determined BY guessing or estimating who we are? I.E: I think therefore I am.

Link said:

Vision and who we are going hand to hand is obvious, since, we aren't a physical thing whether you believe the physical brain generates this program or not, at the end, it's software in case it's the brain.

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It's "software" dependent on a physical brain, produced by chemical and physical interactions. It is physical.

Link said:

But that idea is a vision, that software is a vision, but the brain can't be it, because we don't see fully who we nor does it have perfect judgment to give accuracy to who we are.

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Says you. It could just as easily be said that an individual bears perfect judgement on who they are on an individual basis.

Link said:

When we think of lesser intelligences then God, even if they a good understanding of who we are, they can't have precise full vision of who we are. Therefore who we are can only be maintained by God (Perfect Vision).

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You haven't demonstrated that this is the case. Even if I accept all of your premises, they don't necessary lead to the conclusion that God exists. At most, they lead to the conclusion that people may never be able to truly know themselves.

Link said:

It's obvious when I say God's vision, I mean in the way "Without such a thing as perfect vision from an absolute being (hypothetically), then...."

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It's still defining something into existence that you need to demonstrate. You need to demonstrate that reality would just be an illusion without this hypothetical perfect vision.

Everything can be said, but then there is reality we are discerning. And reality is Hitler for example didn't know who he is.

ImmortalFlame said:

It's still defining something into existence that you need to demonstrate. You need to demonstrate that reality would just be an illusion without this hypothetical perfect vision.

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Well, I will. Later today, I will go into detail. I wanted to be short but I will have to write a more length since you guys want a detailed reminder it seems. This proof is intuitive but it has also a lot of details that can be added to each premise (You can write an essay for each premise).

Link said:

It’s more on the lines:

Without God’s vision we would not have an exact value.
Without an exact value we would be an illusion.
We aren’t an illusion.

Therefore God exists.

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What need is there for an "exact value?" You never discuss nor prove this point - you simply assert that it is necessary and seem to expect everyone to take your word for it. I don't see any need for it at all. I am not even sure what it is to be honest.

We have an "estimable value," of sorts (this is all HIGHLY subjective), that I believe is come to by our innate and mutual desires (or instincts) to find acceptance/love/companionship/etc. from others like us. Whether that be to acquire a mate, form a pack for protection/support, have children to establish our lineage, etc. We're social creatures not because we "know God" and therefore automatically value one another because He's put some "stamp" on us... not at all. If that were the case, then how would you explain sociopaths or psychopaths who do not care about these relative values? Individuals who do not care about forming these bonds or assessing nearly anyone else's value?

Any single person's value, as assessed by any other person, is ENTIRELY subjective and is determined by the individual doing the assessing. I would have thought this overwhelmingly obvious. It is the reason people will love their mother who abused them throughout childhood and yet shoot the guy behind the counter at the convenience store they are robbing who they don't even know and has done nothing at all to them. No one has an "exact value." I'm sorry, but it is a ridiculous concept that holds no correlation with reality as it presents itself.

Audie said:

The nonexistent always fails to provide proof of existence.

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such as dark energy
such as dark matter

Audie said:

Well! Good for you. Normally I'd expect to hear that such
things are facts.

If not a fact, what do you think it is?

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It's a theory. I was sloppy with what I wrote.

Here's the original quote

dybmh said:

The fact that this infinite part exists, is a reason to believe in G-d. But I don't see it as proof or provable.

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I acknowledged that what I proposed was not proof or probable. So that's not really a fact. It's "a reason to believe".

What I should have said was:

"If this infinite part exists..." Not "The fact that this infinite part exists..."

The best example of this infinite part is love. However, if the scientific community is able to isolate the neuro-chemical mechanism that results in the many differing versions of love **and** if they are able to reproduce it consistently among diverse people, then.. I will have to abandon my theory.

Until then, if love exists, then I think that is a reason to believe in God. But like I said, it's not proof or proveable. And I will adjust my POV if science progresses in the direction I described above.

That's my position.

Subduction Zone said:

A simple refutation:

"God can't exist because of Eric The God-Eating Magic Penguin. Since Eric is God-Eating by definition, he has no choice but to eat God. So, if God exists, He automatically ceases to exist as a result of being eaten. Unless you can prove that Eric doesn't exist, God doesn't exist. Even if you can prove that Eric doesn't exist, that same proof will also be applicable to God. There are only two possibilities - either you can prove that Eric doesn't exist or you can't - in both cases it logically follows that God doesn't exist."

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The diet of penguins however is fish. Therefore, you seem to be declaring God is a fish.


"So if she.. weighs the same as a duck... she's made of wood!"

Link said:

God's judgment is a perfect absolute vision,...

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How is God's judgment a "vision"? A judgment is a judgment. And a vision is a vision. How is a judgment a vision?

Link said:

... when we try to judge ourselves, we find we can't really fully know (who) we are, we can't even remember all the things we've done let alone accurately asses it all. We do our best, but it's like when a person draws a spaceship, it doesn't mean they can build or maintain one nor does the image fully represent a spaceship. It's the same with our vision of ourselves with respect to who we are.

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We cannot judge ourselves, fully, because we don't know ourselves fully. OK, I get this. But why do we need to judge ourselves fully? Why isn't our partial judgment good enough? We can judge ourselves in the moment, by who we are in that moment.

Link said:

Moreover, who we are and vision go hand to hand, since, who we are is maintained by vision,...

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Clearly this is not true, since we are who we are in spite of the fact that we do not fully know (cannot fully envision) who we are.

Link said:

... if there was no perfect vision of who we are, there is nothing to guess well we are getting closer to this or that, it becomes totally an illusion since it would exist no where.

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So by "vision", you mean 'ideal'? A vision of our ideal selves?

I have no clear vision of a perfect self. Yet I am able to envision a better version of me than I currently am. And with that, I can judge myself at any time relative to that imperfect, but clearly better, envisioned ideal of who I would like to be.

So I don't see how any of this stands as proof of God. All it proves is that I am able to imagine myself as being a better man than I am, and I am able to judge who I am by the criteria of that imagined better self.

Link said:

It’s more on the lines:

Without God’s vision we would not have an exact value.
Without an exact value we would be an illusion.
We aren’t an illusion.

Therefore God exists.

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Truth never changes, so truth is real
Whatever changes is unreal

Human mind changes, so mind is unreal
Human body changes, so body is unreal
Human emotions change, so they're unreal

Human seems quite unreal ... an illusion

The world changes all the time ... illusion

stvdv said:

Truth never changes, so truth is real
Whatever changes is unreal

Human mind changes, so mind is unreal
Human body changes, so body is unreal
Human emotions change, so they're unreal

Human seems quite unreal ... an illusion

The world changes all the time ... illusion

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Therefore change is true? Or possibly put in different words: The only truth is change?

Audie said:

The nonexistent always fails to provide proof of existence.
Which, btw, does provide a tidier explanation for why
we never hear from him and cannot detect him in any way.

Hence we have "faith" elevated to a prime virtue;
and of course, with proof there'd be no faith and and...

Not to say this means there is no god, but, likewise
says nothing for it either.

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True. God hangs on a knife edge, so to speak.
Someone "proves" God and someone "disproves" God.
And visa versa.

But the NARRATIVE of the bible is that God wants a
people for Himself. God calls people out of the world
for a life long journey of experience. God punishes
His people and He rewards his people. God has
promised an eternal city and a Promised Land.
All of this is PARALLELED in the story of Israel and
the Jews - a living metaphor if you like.
And when you see the Jews returning home to Israel
after 2,000 years that story is still going on.