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The Believabliltiy of Evolution

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I can understand how an intelligent individual may have problems with the creation account in Genesis. What I don't understand is how that same intelligent individual has no problem whatsoever believing everything we see in the world somehow came from the so-called primordial soup.

Intelligent people understand that explanations must be suggested and justified by rational evidence.
The rational evidence suggests and justifies the theory of evolution.

I think there are things a lot more "absurd" sounding a science then evolution. Like relativity or quantum mechanics. Both are VASTLY more counter intuitive imo.

Evolution on the other hand is perfectly sensible. When you understand how the process works, you understand how diversity of species is inevitable.

Not only must a particular life form spontaneously arise

This is not required by evolution theory at all. It matters not to evolution how first life arose. The origins of life are not within the scope of evolution theory.

, but the other organisms upon which it depends must have arisen in lock step. And what are the odds of the flora arising in the required sequence as that of the fauna which depends on that flora?

Natural selection makes that extremely likely.
Off course, if you are just going to ignore the role of natural selection, you'll miss that.


That is more believable than Genesis?

Every evidence-based explanation is more believable then any faith-based explanation. By definition. It's evidence that makes something believable.

So stuff with even only a little evidence, are by definition more believable then faith-based claims, which have no evidence at all.

Science is based on observation. Who has ever seen one genus becoming another? Nobody!

Who as ever seen Pluto complete an orbit? Nobody!
First, because a single orbit of Pluto takes longer then a human lifetime.
Second, because a single orbit of Pluto takes longer then we humans have known about Pluto. So even cross-generation, we haven't seen Pluto complete an orbit.

Yet, we know exactly how long it takes for it to complete an orbit.

Next to that, events of the past leave evidence that we can study in the present.
We need not witness events of the past to know that they have occured, if we have such evidence at our disposal.

We weren't around when Knossos was buried by the Santorini volcano thousands of years ago. But we still know it happened.

It's purely inference which is only slightly better than guessing.

No, it's not.
Infering things based on solid evidence and then testing those inferences, is not at all like "guessing".

It is a model that admittedly could be said to fit with some observed phenomena

With all observed phenomena.
There is no evidence to contradict it.

[qutoe]
, but there is perhaps a better model that nobody has thought of yet.[/quote]

Sure. And that goes for every single scientific model.
But until someone actually comes up with something better, we can only go with the best we got.
And the best we got, does a very good job at explaining the existing data and predicting new data.

If one does not believe Genesis it seems it would be better to just say, "I don't know how we all got here."

:rolleyes:

Right, because your beloved genesis is somehow the "default" view?

The fact is that we do know how species arose.
They evolved, as the evidence shows.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Well, either someone has observed one genus changing into another or not. It so happens nobody has. That could be considered a straw man I suppose, but as I said, science depends on observation. The best they can say is that it may be possible for one genus to become another, but until they actually observe it, they don't know. As such it remains a theory and nothing more.

If a creature of a genus would change into another genus, then evolution theory would be falsified.


See, this is why it's wise to first inform yourself on the subject you are hellbend on arguing against. It would prevent you from saying stupid things like that.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Real change in species is far too complex for humans to ever have a complete understanding of the processes and specific events that cause it.

Why do you project YOUR obvious ignorance (coupled with unwarranted arrogance and HUGE helping of the Dunning-Kruger effect) onto everyone else?

That you think that "broccas area" is 'bifurcated' (despite not knowing what bifurcated means) is not evidence that everyone is similarly clueless. That you do not actually understand what 'survival of the fittest' means in evolution is not evidence that everyone has an over-inflated view of themselves like you do.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
There is nothing in the scriptures that would preclude DNA mutations.
Right, well according to the 'popular' creationist organizations, mutations did not occur until 'the Fall', and then God's mutation curse was so pleasantly bestowed upon ALL living things for our sins. How nice.
Of course, this must have made Yahweh sad, because he also created error-correcting mechanisms in our DNA. So what - is Jehovah just toying with us? How cruel.
However, you have not observed one genus becoming another.

As I indicated previously and you are dutifully ignoring - "observation" in science does not necessitate actually witnessing an event.

I can 'observe' patterns in the fossil record. I can observe the analytical output of DNA analyses using tested and accurate methods.

What can you observe about Yahweh, besides tall tales from the ancient middle east?
A cow (a population of cows to be precise) can have as many mutations as it wants, but it'll always be a cow, a different species, but a cow nonetheless.
Assertion.
Any direct or indirect evidence that might suggest otherwise is incredibly scanty and nothing more than supposition.
So you assert.

I have posted this on here a number of times, and creationists generally ignore it or misrepresent it or just dismiss it. Which will you do:


I forget now who originally posted these on this forum, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it - I have posted this more than a dozen times for creationists who claim that there is no evidence for evolution:

The tested methodology:


Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.


We can hereby CONCLUDE that the results of an application of those methods have merit.


Application of the tested methodology:


Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo

"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "



Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."



A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo andPanlineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "​
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CONCLUSION:

This evidence lays out the results of employing a tested methodology on the question of Primate evolution. The same general criteria/methods have been used on nearly all facets of the evolution of living things.




Interestingly, Genesis says God made everything after it's "kind" which is the Greek word "genos" or genus. So far science has not observed anything that would prove otherwise.

See above.

You can repeat your false mantra as often as you want - it will never be true.

Even more interesting about Genesis is how Yahweh made Adam from dust of the ground (how does dust become the thousands of organic compounds needed for a living human? Magic, I guess....) and then made all the animals (male and female, one guesses) from which Adam was to choose a mate.

Crazy.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
The Bible is derived from people who understood the theory of "evolution" as it actually exists.
I know this is a futile attempt, but what is your evidence for this?
This is one of the chief reasons the Bible fixates on behavior.
Right - like killing children and sending your daughter out to be ravaged or from whom to buy slaves.
Great book about "behavior."
Much of our Theory of Evolution is derived from the ideas of a great Look and See Scientist named Darwin.

Better than the dopey musing of the "look at me" Dunning-Krugerite egotist.

I understand you are needed over at the Graham Hancock forums - you know, where REAL intellectual activities occur....
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Yes! And almost all major changes in almost everything and in all life forms on the individual or species basis are "sudden".

More futility on my part -

Please present EVIDENCE for that assertion.

and remember - "evidence" does NOT consist of some self-aggrandizing, spelling-error filled off-topic rant that ends with you declaring victory.
You can't step into the same river twice but when it changes its course it is always sudden. There is no significant gradual change in species caused by "survival of the fittest" that wasn't engineered in the lab. We see sudden change when we see it at all.
See above.

Why can you NEVER present evidence for your off-the-wall rants?
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
What have you ever learned in life that somebody didn't tell you? Did you ever meet George Washington, or do you just take some person's word that he lived?


That's not at all what the scriptures say about themselves.

John 17:17,

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Of course belief is optional, but you ought to at least know what it says before making a judgment.
What does this Scripture say about itself:

Hosea 13:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

So cool how the kids of non-Jehovah followers are to be slaughtered.

So much love and omnipotence there.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Not only must a particular life form spontaneously arise, but the other organisms upon which it depends must have arisen in lock step.

LOL!

It's purely inference which is only slightly better than guessing.

guess
/ɡes/
verb
  1. estimate or suppose (something) without sufficient information to be sure of being correct.

in·fer
/inˈfər/
verb
verb: infer; 3rd person present: infers; past tense: inferred; past participle: inferred; gerund or present participle: inferring
  1. deduce or conclude (information) from evidence and reasoning rather than from explicit statements.


Get a dictionary. Then read a science book.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
If a creature of a genus would change into another genus, then evolution theory would be falsified.


See, this is why it's wise to first inform yourself on the subject you are hellbend on arguing against. It would prevent you from saying stupid things like that.

That’s what I have been trying to explain to rrobs.

He should learn what biology actually say about Evolution, like what are actually possible and probable, instead of making his own silly scenarios which are wrong.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Why do you project YOUR obvious ignorance (coupled with unwarranted arrogance and HUGE helping of the Dunning-Kruger effect) onto everyone else?

Nope.

Homo Dunning-Kruger doesn't work on any level and Homo Argumentum Rotundum doesn't really capture the spirit of Homo Omnisciencis. Humans need a name as expansive as we think we are and that separates us from mere animals like the "wise men" who came before.

I am open to suggestions though.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
I know this is a futile attempt, but what is your evidence for this?

I keep presenting evidence and you keep ignoring it.

You mentioned "tested methodology" in another post. Nothing underlies theory other than the scientific method and it employs experiment. Without experiment there is only Look and See Science.

I do sympathize though.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Nope.

Homo Dunning-Kruger doesn't work on any level and Homo Argumentum Rotundum doesn't really capture the spirit of Homo Omnisciencis. Humans need a name as expansive as we think we are and that separates us from mere animals like the "wise men" who came before.

I am open to suggestions though.
Whoosh!!
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I keep presenting evidence and you keep ignoring it.

You mentioned "tested methodology" in another post. Nothing underlies theory other than the scientific method and it employs experiment. Without experiment there is only Look and See Science.

I do sympathize though.
I don't think that you understand the concept of evidence. You clearly do not understand the scientific method.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
More futility on my part -

Please present EVIDENCE for that assertion.

I can't prove a negative. It is YOUR JOB to show some change that is gradual.

ALL OBSERVED CHANGE IN ALL LIFE ON EVERY LEVEL IS SUDDEN. It is YOUR JOB to show ANY CHANGE AT ALL to individuals, species, or any life on any level that is gradual.

You are the one who maintains that species change gradually through "survival of the fittest". Show it! Try showing a fossil of something that gradually changes into something much different. "Horse" is the best example that comes to mind but this isn't so gradual (think punctuated equilibrium) and today's horse isn't so much different than fossil horses as it is smaller. Yes, I agree horses "evolved" into what we see today but I do not agree that it was caused by "survival of the fittest" OR that even it it were caused by this that you can extrapolate that into being the cause of all such change. Looking and seeing the fossil record is Look and See Science and this is NOT SCIENCE AT ALL. Looking and seeing is at best a means of inventing hypothesis but NOT THEORY.

Even scientists now days rarely seem to understand metaphysics and epistemology. We are living in the dim ages and heading for a new dark ages.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
So no evidence for anything you claim, then.
Got it.
Homo Dunning-Kruger doesn't work on any level
And yet you are the type-species of Homo dunning-kruger.

and Homo Argumentum Rotundum doesn't really capture the spirit of Homo Omnisciencis.
No such thing as Homo Omnisciencis.
Humans need a name as expansive as we think we are and that separates us from mere animals like the "wise men" who came before.

I am open to suggestions though.
I suggest you learn what "evidence" is, then present some for your baseless assertions.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I don't disagree but I still maintain that significant change in significant species is almost always sudden.
In terms of mutations, true.

Gradual change exists but accounts for little of the aggregate change in most major species.
Not really. Smaller changes can and have led to much larger changes if given enough time. IOW, they "add up". The gradual enlarging of the human brain, as well as some reconfigurations of the brain, skull, and the birth canal, are just one area of myriads of examples can be observed.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Who cares what you believe?

Where is the EVIDENCE?

This is what I'm talking about.

You don't see evidence. Just like everyone else you see what you believe. You can't even see that the brocca's area is, in a sense, bifurcated since it's on two sides of an anatomic structure. You believe your definitions have some reality beyond as a means to think and communicate. You believe your models of experiment are a mental representation of reality and that all educated people share this exact same model and each individual sees the same reality and applies the exact same equations providing the exact same predictions about the world. You believe you always understood your teachers and exactly what they meant and that they were always exactly right. You believe you can each deduce the nature of a elephant by studying any one of its parts and don't notice when the blind man studying the tusks comes to wholly different conclusions than the guy in back studying its scat or stink. Reality tramples everyone who tries to predict the future because it always shows just how little we know individually and collectively. Ancient "prophets" (the scientists not the biblical characters) had a better track record at prediction than most scientists today.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
5 examples please.

And do not hide them in a torrent of absurd and misspelled verbiage.

I listed several examples in this very thread within the last two days.

If I list them again you won't see them again just like you don't see the evidence I post.

I'm not new at this.
 
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