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If God spoke directly to everyone...

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Let's add to that these ones from the polytheist perspective:
  1. Unlike that creepy boy/girl who asked you out for the third time and can't accept "no" for an answer, God understands that there are many people who are simply not interested in them.
  2. Unlike that creepy boy/girl who tries to tear you away from your significant other, God understands that many people are already in committed, meaningful relationships with other gods.
  3. Unlike that creepy boy/girl stalker who looks up your home address, phone number, and daily habits to try and communicate with you against your will, God understand that being a creepy stalker is creepy.
God was God...of the Dark
before He created light

and instruction was given thousands of years ago
go to your closet and close the door
and the Spirit that knows you will hear your prayer

creepy?...….oh yeah

and if God answered your prayer
would you stay in the closet?
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
Look around you in the world, how much evil do you see? war, killings, rapes, stealing, lies, cheating, i would call that low level of spirituality.
And God is spirituality. What we call human beings are actually spiritual beings trapped in the human body because of our wrongdoings in the past. If you disagree that is fine, i am not here to convince you that a spiritual lifestyle is real.

No. Sorry. You made a serious spiritual judgment against others who do not coincide with yours.

I know I'm a dumbass.

Do you know what you are.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What would happen? People would stop squabbling over which religion is the "right" one?

That sound like some sort of threat-- and feeds into my observation that such a hiding god is malevolently evil... good thing it's just a myth, now isn't it?
The whole world would instantly perish, if God showed up.

That is not because God is malevolently evil, it is because God is so powerful.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Gods don't factor into my thinking, but if they did, I would still use satisfaction as the measure and evidence of a life successfully lived.
I guess that is where you and I differ. I do not use personal satisfaction as a measure of anything. I realize I might have to be unhappy in a material sense in order to gain what I want to gain spiritually. What that means is making a lot of personal sacrifices, but in a very deep level I am happier than I have ever been in my entire life, even though I have hardly any personal enjoyments.
As I indicated earlier, I'm distrustful of advice that asks me to deny my better judgment and to accept ideas such as pursuing a path that somebody told me that God wants me to take, a path that would ask me to modify this satisfying path for a different one that was less conducive to happiness based on a promise that need not be kept of some other kind of happiness not in evidence.
Nobody should be giving you such advice, Imo, because that would be making your choices for you. There would be absolutely no reason for you to change your path, since you do not have a God belief that leads you in a different direction. To change direction would have to be a personal choice.

There is no way you can know if a different path would be less conducive to happiness unless you took that path. However, happiness is a subjective thing so what makes you happy would probably not be the same thing that makes me happy.
So let's assume the existence of this god (who you call God). Why does God want me to find something other than what I have found? For me or for God? Does this God have needs that I can help meet by living a certain way? If so, why should I live less of a life than what seems best to me to meet those needs?
It definitely would not be for God because God has no needs. I am not suggesting that you should live life any differently. Hypothetically, even if you did believe in God and follow my religion, you would not have to change your lifestyle. It sounds like you are in the same page with your values as a humanist, so the only difference would be a belief in God.

Most Baha’is are not like me. At least for now, I have chosen to live a rather austere life, but that is not even required or recommended in the Baha’i teachings. Moderation in all things is what is taught.
If it's for me, then I will remain the judge of what makes me happiest without regard for what God wants me to find.
Of course, and that is what God wants you to do, because free will is sacrosanct. God is not pushing anyone to believe in Him, God wants us all to choose. That was the whole point of this thread.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I think for most people it's really not a choice, because there never really is a question that comes up for them. This is just the way things are, and they accept them as such. It's the smaller percentages where they begin to question what they were raised with, and that usually occurs because of some sort of tension with that inherited system. The questions now being asked by that individual, aren't finding answers with the typical "just accept it" answers that traditionalism offers, and so they begin to look beyond it.
But those percentages are getting larger and larger because many people are questioning traditional Christian beliefs and becoming agnostics and atheists. However, I agree, the percentages are still small compared to those who continue to adhere to their beliefs.
What about yourself? What made you question what you were programmed with? Did some crisis of faith beset you for some reason?
I was not raised in any religion or with a belief in God. Both my parents were ‘fallen away’ Christians. I never saw the inside of a Church or a Bible. Back in the days when 95% of people in the United States were Christians both my parents were rebels.

I then stumbled upon the Baha’i Faith during my first year of college and became a Baha’i within weeks. It was not for God that I became a Baha’i; it was because of the teachings. I had little interest in God back then, He was just an aside. Only as I got older did I start to consider God important and now I cannot shake Him off my tail. :D
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
‘even if someone does not want to search for God they might do it because it is in their best interest.’

"Might" and "should" are different things.
That is true. I never said should.
If I don't even know I have a job, why would I try to get to work?
You wouldn’t, but you might go searching for a job ‘if you wanted one.’
He argues that man has some version of "free will" while simultaneously declaring that, "Man is absolutely helpless and dependent, since might and power belong especially to God," and later:

"Also the inaction or the movement of man depend upon the assistance of God. If he is not aided, he is not able to do either good or evil. But when the help of existence comes from the Generous Lord, he is able to do both good and evil; but if the help is cut off, he remains absolutely helpless."
That does not contradict free will in any way. He is saying that we are dependent upon God in order to be able to do anything, including making choices (in this case choosing between good and evil).
Absolute helplessness is literally the opposite of free will.
No, it is not. He did not say we are helpless, he said we need the assistance of God in order to be able to do anything, including making free will choices.
Yes I understand, this is basically what your OP summarized. My point is, that line of reasoning is based on the faulty assumption that belief is a choice, which as we've now fully covered, it isn't.
God wants us to do our own homework and make an effort to believe. According to this passage, God wants everyone to search for Him and try to determine if He exists by using their own innate intelligence and making a sincere effort. If they do not end up believing, at least they made an effort. That is all that is expected, sincerity and effort.
‘God has done nothing that YOU can see but that does not mean God has never done anything.’

Yes, that's true, God could have done something in secret in his hidden corner of the universe. But the time to believe something is when we have evidence for it, not simply because we can't prove it's impossible. We have no evidence for the notion that God has ever done anything.
The thing is, we can never know what God is doing and we do not need to know what God is doing; God sits on His Throne of Glory and He is unapproachable and unreachable. Maybe you got that idea from Christianity that we are children of God, part of His family, but according to Baha’i belief, we cannot be ‘partners’ with God because we are not on God’s level:

“Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory.” Gleanings, p. 192
Presuming he exists, your God is omnipotent. He could show himself and prevent us from being "reduced to utter nothingness."
I have been down this road before too. No, God cannot do that because God cannot change His nature just because God is omnipotent; and if God changed His nature he would no longer be omnipotent… Logic 101.
So this is a lousy excuse to not show himself. He is choosing to hide. And therefore there are consequences to his choice, including the guarantee that a portion of the population won't believe in him. If he doesn't want to rectify that situation, that's his choice.
Do you really think the Almighty God cares if a portion of the population does not believe in Him? God does not care for Himself because God is completely self-subsisting and self-sustaining. God cares only for us, but if we choose to reject the evidence He provided He is not going to provide some other kind of evidence just to garner 100%, because He does not need it.

This reminds me of “mommy, I want a cookie, and you are not my mommy anymore if you do not give me the cookie.” In short, it is childish. Six long years I have been posting to an atheist on some other forums, almost daily, and he says similar things. It had to stop somewhere so I finally told him in a new thread I posted I will no longer respond to any more posts that are about what God could/would/should do and how God failed on His job; e.g., how the world “could have” been created differently, or how Messengers are a inferior way to communicate, etc. Six years is long enough.
We're rehashing the same argument from a few months ago. This isn't about what I want. This is about the logical conclusion of your god's alleged actions. He's supposedly the omnipotent one, we are not. He is holding all the cards. He made all the rules to the game, voluntarily.

If anyone has free will, it's him, surely. Therefore, if he exists, he's choosing to hide. That's just the inescapable conclusion.
God hides His Essence and that is the only thing He hides. God reveals His Attributes and His Will through His Manifestations who are a perfect reflection of God, mirror images. That is why Jesus said “I and my Father are one.” The same applies to Baha’u’llah and all the other Manifestations of God. They are God manifest in the flesh, but they are not God incarnate in the flesh because God cannot become a man.

If you want to understand why God cannot be comprehended directly, I suggest you read this chapter. It is a little advanced but if you do not understand it just ask. I do not completely understand it but I get the gist.

37: THE DIVINITY CAN ONLY BE COMPREHENDED THROUGH THE DIVINE MANIFESTATIONS
It may not be a conclusion you like, which is why I'm sure you'll adamantly deny it, but it is what it is. No amount of rationalizing (like telling us what bad things would happen if he did that - because by definition, he could prevent those bad things) changes it.
The main thing is not that bad things would happen if God revealed His Essence. The main thing is that God is, and has ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived so we could NEVER comprehend the Essence of God. That is why there would be no point for God to reveal it to us. Heck, even the Manifestations of God cannot comprehend the Essence of God; they just hear His Voice through the Holy Spirit.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
(of a deity) having unlimited power.
"God is described as omnipotent and benevolent"
synonyms:
all-powerful · almighty · supreme · most high · pre-eminent · dictatorial · despotic · 
[more]
  • having great power and influence.
    "an omnipotent sovereign"


Male self owned human natural self origins, of self, as a self.

Owning no explanation of where he came from in factual human self advice.

For if you did not exist to equate conscious human expression, then you are not human.

Says when I did AI pyramid UFO mass gained science, it burnt out the Saviour asteroid gases that cooled irradiated space, from Sun attack Earth O planet history.

I studied that information to invent science, to claim to artificially copy what the Sun did to God.

Which first identifies that a human male was in the status God review a self destructive innocent life.

Who did not know reaction until it changed him.

You can never know what change is until it is experienced.

So he brought in a new SUN UFO mass just for his machine, so it is artificial to natural radiation mass for natural life support, what he knew.

And it changed the cold spatial radiation back drop, and it changed the ground mass, which he says was attacked and it changed the feed back, which then owned self vision and voiced recording.

Which he never previously owned, as the God self...why the original male human superior self is not recorded...for it never owned original recording for science did not exist as human chosen.

So when you get self feed back as a male by voice and image by attack and then natural cooling, then made in the Image of God O attack by release of hot gas radiation mass.....says as an explanation in reality that a male put that feed back recorded image of a male as a human in that reaction his own self.

And you most certainly have never owned that natural history as a male and as human consciousness...but it is why you have been an egotist ever since.

Therefore God in male human conscious science perception is self deceptive...in his relative science history of causes.

So God in fact does not own that description as a male who claims that he is God as owner of that reaction.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
No, it is not. He did not say we are helpless, he said we need the assistance of God in order to be able to do anything, including making free will choices.

He literally said we are helpless, I quoted the guy.

This is having your cake. And eating it too. We're totally helpless, but also "free."

God wants us to do our own homework and make an effort to believe.

Yes, I know. That's an incoherent wish.

The thing is, we can never know what God is doing and we do not need to know what God is doing; God sits on His Throne of Glory

We can never know what God is doing, but you know he's sitting on his "Throne of Glory?"

I have been down this road before too. No, God cannot do that because God cannot change His nature just because God is omnipotent; and if God changed His nature he would no longer be omnipotent… Logic 101.

If God can't do something, he's not omnipotent. Yes, that is Logic 101. Thank you.

Do you really think the Almighty God cares if a portion of the population does not believe in Him?

I don't know what to think, different theists tell me different things. And there's no evidence he's around to care or not care anyway. :shrug:

God does not care for Himself because God is completely self-subsisting and self-sustaining. God cares only for us, but if we choose to reject the evidence He provided He is not going to provide some other kind of evidence just to garner 100%, because He does not need it.

Understood. God has chosen to cause a portion of humanity not to believe by hiding. Thank you, that is what I've been saying.

This reminds me of “mommy, I want a cookie, and you are not my mommy anymore if you do not give me the cookie.” In short, it is childish. Six long years I have been posting to an atheist on some other forums, almost daily, and he says similar things. It had to stop somewhere so I finally told him in a new thread I posted I will no longer respond to any more posts that are about what God could/would/should do and how God failed on His job; e.g., how the world “could have” been created differently, or how Messengers are a inferior way to communicate, etc. Six years is long enough.

I'm sorry that it frustrates you when people point out the obvious logical flaws in your theology. Given the amount that you post about this specific subject, I can't help but wonder if at some level, this problem bothers you. By all accounts, you're a bright, otherwise very logical person. And you keep after this particular issue relentlessly, trying somehow to find a rationalization for the obvious conundrum divine hiddenness causes for your worldview. And now, because I point out the same issue that philosophers have literally been pointing out for millennia, you lash out and accuse me of being childish. You can do better, Trail.

I'll say the same thing I already said to another theist this past week. If you don't want to talk to me about this subject, then don't. You are free ;) to stop replying at any time.

God hides His Essence and that is the only thing He hides. God reveals His Attributes and His Will through His Manifestations who are a perfect reflection of God, mirror images.

When you can demonstrate that any of God's alleged manifestations were omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, or existed outside of space-time, I'd love to see it. Put it in that imminent thread you're going to start! :)
 

Pudding

Well-Known Member
The purpose of the OP was not to convince anyone of anything.
Regardless, my point still stand, your bunch of claims which you have provided 0 evidence to backup any of them, that's very unconvincing.

Btw, what is the purpose of your op? Why do you making so many bold empty claims (regards your God) in your op in a religious debate forum?
 
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Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
No. Sorry. You made a serious spiritual judgment against others who do not coincide with yours.

I know I'm a dumbass.

Do you know what you are.
I did not judge others I only answered a question. And no I do not see people as dumbass as you called it. But what I do speak about is that (for those who do follow a spiritual path) there is moral code to follow, to always try to become morally better within themself. To have a view that the world is becoming less moral, and that many do not follow moral code anymore. it is not only difficult to watch it but when trying to help by pointing out that humanity (not individual people) has a huge problem. Then I get spit in the face with that I am evil. I don't take it personally, but I see it as a sign that yes what I said is correct. Because if people did have a higher moral standard they would ask questions about it instead of ridicule

I do not have high enough moral standards (according to Falun Gong) myself self so I don't say others are morally bad and think I am better than others. I have my problems too that I work on every day. Every day I find it challenging because I still get tempted by food that looks good. I still get thoughts that should not be there, I do not swear out load but sometimes the word is formed in my head, and to me, that is a failure.
I don't drink alcohol or smoke (i did drink 20 years ago but was only drunk once) I did smoke for 4 years 20 years ago but quit)
My biggest "error" today is that I don't feel good enough toward others, but others say I burn my self out by always think of others first) But still I don't find it good enough.

I never mean to hurt others with my words, but I realize when I speak the truth it might hurt others who do not see the same things I do. So I understand in the future I will become more and more silent. And that is maybe the right way to go. At this moment i don't know.

You asked me. Who do I know what I am?
My answer to that is. I did actually have a thread about that some time ago. And I can still not fully answer this question. So No at the moment I do not know what I am or who I am.
I know what I want to be but I am not there yet.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Why assume that “everyone” wants to hear from God? There have to be some people who would not want to hear from God. God is All-Knowing so God knows that. God wants belief to be a choice and that might be one reason God does not speak directly to everyone.

However, that is not the main reason why God does not speak directly to everyone, because hypothetically speaking, even if God spoke directly to everyone, people could still choose not to listen or hear.

Imo, the main reasons why God does not speak directly to everyone are as follows:
  1. God wants us to seek Him out and use our innate intelligence to decide if we have found Him. God rewards true seekers.
  2. God does not want to make belief easy to acquire. God wants us to exert an earnest effort in order to believe.
  3. God wants us to have faith that He exists without absolute proof. Those who have faith will get the proof they need.
  4. Last but not least, nobody except God’s Messengers can comprehend God. Messengers act as mediators between God and humans, communicating what we would otherwise be unable to understand.

I don't even have reasons to believe that any god ever communicated with anyone about anything.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I did not mean that belief IS a choice.

I meant that "if we choose to believe" God wants that to be OUR choice, not something that He chose for us.

What you mean seems to directly contradict that which you claim you don't mean.

"Beliefs aren't choices, but if you choose, then..."


It makes no sense.
Either beliefs are a choice or they aren't.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I think we do choose. Why don't you think we choose?
You can answer that question yourself.

Consider "choosing" to sincerely believe that Santa is real.
Could you really do that?

I say no, you couldn't.

You could choose to order a steak instead of fried chicken, but you could not choose to sincerely believe santa is real.

Because beliefs aren't mere choices.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
We do choose if we are convinced by the evidence.

No.

You are not convinced by the evidence so you do not choose to believe.

Being convinced by the evidence compells you to believe (or not). It's a compulsion, not a choice.

All the evidence suggests that Santa is a fairy tale for children.
No evidence suggests the dude exists.

By compulsion, this forces us to disbelieve santa is real.

Please point out where the "choice" is in the reasoning that leads us to disbelieve in santa.

It is a conscious choice I made just like everything we do is a choice.

As I keep pointing out: it really isn't.

I did not just suddenly decide one day to believe in God. I did not believe in God before I became a Baha'i because I had no reason to believe that God existed.

And then you came accross things that convinced you which triggered you to believe.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
yep......

you are not in lead of the conversation

And? Neither are you-- ramblings that have zip-all to do with anything beyond some hallucinations, does not a "conversation" make.

What's that? You don't even have the excuse of being on drugs?

well.... that's hardly the fault of the listener, now is it?
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
The whole world would instantly perish, if God showed up..

Says YOU. Apparently, your god is incapable of doing a LOT of things.

Apparently, and obviously, your god's massive EGO is SO GREAT it cannot dial itself back any.

That's rather incompetent. And inept. And.... evil.
That is not because God is malevolently evil, it is because God is so powerful.

Nope-- that's the exact opposite of "powerful". A T-REX in a crowded mall, would be powerful, and quite similar to your god.

A Great White Shark-- who's starving-- plunked down into a large crowded swimming pool would be powerful-- and about as inept at not being so-- as your god.

Nope. You fail to describe a Godly Being. You just describe a maliciously evil monster-- or perhaps one that is 100% incompetent.

After all-- your god seems incapable of NOT being Patently Unfair: it uses Special Teacher's Pets to the harm and exclusion of the whole Class...

I have more respect for the T-Rex or Shark, above... they are just being what they are.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
And? Neither are you-- ramblings that have zip-all to do with anything beyond some hallucinations, does not a "conversation" make.

What's that? You don't even have the excuse of being on drugs?

well.... that's hardly the fault of the listener, now is it?
so …..you can't see the line of thought

ain't that too bad

and yeah.....the fault is to the listener
which is why the Carpenter taught in parables
 
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