Genesis Account of Creation: Firmament

Audie said:

Of course the claims in genesis cannot be disproved if nobody knows what genesis says.

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What? Anyone can come to know what the Genesis account records. They just have to read it.

I just believe that it is one of many testimonies of the same events. Testimonies can differ from one another.

Why do you believe that no one knows what the Genesis account claims?

JesusKnowsYou said:

What? Anyone can come to know what the Genesis account records. They just have to read it.



I just believe that it is one of many testimonies of the same events. Testimonies can differ from one another.

Why do you believe that no one knows what the Genesis account claims?

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So tell me if all of genesis is metaphor, parts of it or
none?

Was there a worldwide flood, real wet somewhere,
or complete fairy tale? If you do not know, who does?

And BTW, your claim of some worldwide disaster with
massive loss of life has zero physical evidence,

(curious if you read what I said about results of prayer...)

Audie said:

So tell me if all of genesis is metaphor, parts of it or none?

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Are you asking me to share my opinion or are you asking me to convince you of something?

So many forum members seem to not understand the difference between the two.

Audie said:

Was there a worldwide flood, real wet somewhere, or complete fairy tale? If you do not know, who does?

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I believe I told you before that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not have a standardized view of the Flood event.

The exact nature of the Flood event just isn't that critical to our theology. We do accept a number of basic teachings though.

1.) There existed a prophet named Noah.

2.) Noah was commanded by the Lord to construct an ark.

3.) Noah warned the people of the impending deluge.

4.) Noah, his family and the animals he collected were saved from the deluge.

5.) The Lord made a covenant with Noah and his descendants.

We believe that God has promised that the day will come that He will reveal everything to the world.

I could share latter-day scripture or quote from Church leaders about the Flood event, if you want, but I don't know if you'd be interested.

Audie said:

And BTW, your claim of some worldwide disaster with massive loss of life has zero physical evidence,

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I never made that claim.

I claimed that the Genesis account recounted a devastating event that caused massive loss of life.

I also claimed that it was impossible to determine if it was a global event based on the Genesis account alone.

Why do people on this website like to misrepresent others arguments so much?

Audie said:

(curious if you read what I said about results of prayer...)

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I don't recall.

If you said it in response to one of my comments, I will get to it eventually.

JesusKnowsYou said:

I believe I told you before that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not have a standardized view of the Flood event.

The exact nature of the Flood event just isn't that critical to our theology. We do accept a number of basic teachings though.

1.) There existed a prophet named Noah.

2.) Noah was commanded by the Lord to construct an ark.

3.) Noah warned the people of the impending deluge.

4.) Noah, his family and the animals he collected were saved from the deluge.

5.) The Lord made a covenant with Noah and his descendants.

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"The exact nature of the Flood event just isn't that critical to our theology."

Really? No one cares if the entire world was actually flooded as is clearly written in Genesis!

Maybe, the reality of the matter is that LDS knows the entire world was never flooded as described in Genesis. So, they just ignore it. OH! They do believe...
1.) There existed a prophet named Noah.
2.) Noah was commanded by the Lord to construct an ark.
3.) Noah warned the people of the impending deluge.
4.) Noah, his family and the animals he collected were saved from the deluge.
5.) The Lord made a covenant with Noah and his descendants.
...just not the really biggy item - The Global Flood! That part isn't important.

Utter nonsense.

ecco said:

"The exact nature of the Flood event just isn't that critical to our theology."

Really? No one cares if the entire world was actually flooded as is clearly written in Genesis!

Maybe, the reality of the matter is that LDS knows the entire world was never flooded as described in Genesis. So, they just ignore it. OH! They do believe...
1.) There existed a prophet named Noah.
2.) Noah was commanded by the Lord to construct an ark.
3.) Noah warned the people of the impending deluge.
4.) Noah, his family and the animals he collected were saved from the deluge.
5.) The Lord made a covenant with Noah and his descendants.
...just not the really biggy item - The Global Flood! That part isn't important.

Utter nonsense.

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You can assume that the Genesis account is describing a worldwide global Deluge, but that cannot be determined by the record alone.

JesusKnowsYou said:

You can assume that the Genesis account is describing a worldwide global Deluge, but that cannot be determined by the record alone.

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That is actually what it very clearly does say.

The bible "record" is what it is, a story..is it true?

Check outside sources.

ALL relevant physical evidence shows with unmistakable
clarity that it absolutely did not happen.

Any belief system which cannot accommodate that reality
is simply rotten to the core, and not worth more than a
semi-respectful burial.

Audie said:

That is actually what it very clearly does say.

The bible "record" is what it is, a story..is it true?

Check outside sources.

ALL relevant physical evidence shows with unmistakable
clarity that it absolutely did not happen.

Any belief system which cannot accommodate that reality
is simply rotten to the core, and not worth more than a
semi-respectful burial.

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I'm waiting for you to show where in the Genesis account it claims that the entire planet was under water at some time.

If you knew about outside sources concerning the Genesis account, you'd soon see that that is one interpretation out of many.

You cannot claim that the Genesis account definitively claims that the entire planet was Flooded.

JesusKnowsYou said:

I'm waiting for you to show where in the Genesis account it claims that the entire planet was under water at some time.

If you knew about outside sources concerning the Genesis account, you'd soon see that that is one interpretation out of many.

You cannot claim that the Genesis account definitively claims that the entire planet was Flooded.

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I know what it says.

I know if you decide it does not actually
mean what it says, then anything goes.

I know that lo and many a version of
what it really-really says are out there.
It is kind of funny, with all the ones who
claim god leads them to their myriad
true readings.

You think it relates to some calamity for
which zero physical evidence exidts.

None of these versions has physical evidence
or any credibility

I think it is all pretty silly.

Audie said:

I know what it says.

I know if you decide it does not actually
mean what it says, then anything goes.

I know that lo and many a version of
what it really-really says are out there.
It is kind of funny, with all the ones who
claim god leads them to their myriad
true readings.

You think it relates to some calamity for
which zero physical evidence exidts.

None of these versions has physical evidence
or any credibility

I think it is all pretty silly.

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Yeah, you have mentioned this opinion of yours many many times. We all get it.

I'm still waiting for you to show where in the Genesis account it claims that the entire planet was covered in water during the Flood event.

You're confident when you share your opinion, but you stall when asked to share what the Genesis account claims.

JesusKnowsYou said:

Yeah, you have mentioned this opinion of yours many many times. We all get it.

I'm still waiting for you to show where in the Genesis account it claims that the entire planet was covered in water during the Flood event.

You're confident when you share your opinion, but you stall when asked to share what the Genesis account claims.

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JesusKnowsYou said:

Yeah, you have mentioned this opinion of yours many many times. We all get it.

I'm still waiting for you to show where in the Genesis account it claims that the entire planet was covered in water during the Flood event.

You're confident when you share your opinion, but you stall when asked to share what the Genesis account claims.

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Everyone as noted reads the Bible to their
convenience. Their opinions, not mine.

Stall? I foolishly assumed you read it yourself.
You are continuing to stall response to my
request for evidence of some calamity that
is the basis for flood. So? Why not just admit
there isnt any?

Wotld wide?

“All the high hills under heaven”means just a few of them?

JesusKnowsYou said:

Yeah, you have mentioned this opinion of yours many many times. We all get it.

I'm still waiting for you to show where in the Genesis account it claims that the entire planet was covered in water during the Flood event.

You're confident when you share your opinion, but you stall when asked to share what the Genesis account claims.

Click to expand...

You no longer need to wait . . .

Genesis:7:17 the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man. 22 All in of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died. 23 So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only X)" data-cr="#cen-NKJV-183X" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;">Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive. 24 Y)" data-cr="#cen-NKJV-184Y" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;">And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

The mountains were covered and all living things on the land were killed by the flood. Biblically it was a world flood.

Who is; 'We all get it.'

JesusKnowsYou said:

You can assume that the Genesis account is describing a worldwide global Deluge, but that cannot be determined by the record alone.

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There is no need to assume anything.

Multiple branches of science all agree there was no flood that covered the entire earth since the advent of man.

Genesis clearly states that there was a flood that covered the entire earth since the advent of man.

Either science is wrong or Genesis is wrong.

Why do you, and, apparently other LDS, choose to ignore this major conflict?

Audie said:

Everyone as noted reads the Bible to their
convenience. Their opinions, not mine.

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So you admit that your claims that the Genesis account records that the Flood was a world wide calamity is only your own opinion?

Audie said:

Stall? I foolishly assumed you read it yourself.

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I have read it myself, which is why I don't have a concrete opinion on it. The record is too ambiguous.

Audie said:

You are continuing to stall response to my
request for evidence of some calamity that
is the basis for flood. So? Why not just admit
there isnt any?

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How could I provide evidence of anything if I don't know exactly what the Genesis account is describing?

Audie said:

Wotld wide?

“All the high hills under heaven”means just a few of them?

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Who wrote the Genesis account?

How could who wrote the account make any claim about all the "anything" under heaven?

Can he see everything on the planet all at once? Does he live in outer space?

JesusKnowsYou said:

Who wrote the Genesis account?

How could who wrote the account make any claim about all the "anything" under heaven? Does he live in outer space?

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What a completely silly response.

shunyadragon said:

You no longer need to wait . . .

Genesis:7:17 the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man. 22 All in of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died. 23 So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only X)" data-cr="#cen-NKJV-183X" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;">Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive. 24 Y)" data-cr="#cen-NKJV-184Y" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;">And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

The mountains were covered and all living things on the land were killed by the flood. Biblically it was a world flood.

Who is; 'We all get it.'

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What does the Genesis account mean what it says "earth"?

We, today, think of "earth" as "the Earth", our planet, however the two ancient Hebrew words that could be used to describe the word "earth" were references to "dry land".

Much like how Genesis 1:10 reads, "And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good."

The word "Earth" in the Genesis account meant "dry land", not necessarily the planet.

Also, how could the writer of the Genesis account possibly determine that all living things on the planet were killed or that the entire planet was covered in water?

Wouldn't any of his claims about the devastation of the Flood be bound to his limited perspective? He could only describe what he could see.

Also, what if the Garden of Eden and all subsequent events up to the Flood happened on an island?

You need to make a lot of assumptions to come to the conclusion that it was a world Flood.

ecco said:

There is no need to assume anything.

Multiple branches of science all agree there was no flood that covered the entire earth since the advent of man.

Genesis clearly states that there was a flood that covered the entire earth since the advent of man.

Either science is wrong or Genesis is wrong.

Why do you, and, apparently other LDS, choose to ignore this major conflict?

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Our friend is sadly outmatched

JesusKnowsYou said:

What does the Genesis account mean what it says "earth"?

We, today, think of "earth" as "the Earth", our planet, however the two ancient Hebrew words that could be used to describe the word "earth" were references to "dry land".

Much like how Genesis 1:10 reads, "And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good."

The word "Earth" in the Genesis account meant "dry land", not necessarily the planet.

Also, how could the writer of the Genesis account possibly determine that all living things on the planet were killed or that the entire planet was covered in water?

Wouldn't any of his claims about the devastation of the Flood be bound to his limited perspective? He could only describe what he could see.

Also, what if the Garden of Eden and all subsequent events up to the Flood happened on an island?

You need to make a lot of assumptions to come to the conclusion that it was a world Flood.

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Like that anything less does not match the text nor achieve
the claimed purpose.

Some reason to avoid the fact that there is
zero evidence of any huge calamity of any sort?

And..

What if the entire genesis story is a fairy tale?

In the event you illustrate well my
earlier observation that nobody knows
what any of it is supposed to mean.

"How would the writers know..."? So it is not
"God inspired". Like that is news.

They made it up.

Talk about a waste of time.

ecco said:

Genesis clearly states that there was a flood that covered the entire earth since the advent of man.

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It is possible that that was what the Genesis account records, but it is hardly "clear".

This would be your interpretation.

ecco said:

Either science is wrong or Genesis is wrong.

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I disagree.

Both science and Genesis could be wrong.

Science could be wrong and Genesis could be accurate.

Genesis could be wrong and science could be accurate.

"Multiple branches of science" have been wrong in the past, just as various interpretations of scripture have been wrong in the past.

ecco said:

Why do you, and, apparently other LDS, choose to ignore this major conflict?

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If the Genesis account is ambiguous in it's description of the Flood event, how could any of us determine that there is any conflict at all?

Audie said:

What a completely silly response.

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What a non-answer.

Audie said:

Our friend is sadly outmatched

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I need to say, as your friend, that you haven't been acting all that friendly toward me.