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Non-Trinitarians: What's wrong with the Trinity?

sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
TJ1 said:
Thank you for conceding this simple fact
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Except that you’re insisting that doctrine must be explicitly taught in the scriptures in order to be valid. That’s heretical thinking. Remember that I also said that the concepts are taught in the scriptures.

TJ1 said:
I said that I was taking Jesus' words at face value when he called Satan "the ruler of this world" and that the burden was on you to prove that his words mean something different than that. You responded by saying, "I’ve already done my due diligence; now it’s your turn
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Correct. So, when do you plan on doing that?

TJ1 said:
Are you willing to give an answer about what you believe Jesus really meant when he called Satan "the ruler of this world"? It's been 5 days since you first objected to this
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asked and answered above. Some of us have families to care for and must work for a living. IF I have time, I’ll give you a fair answer. But your snark will knock the answer down in my list of priorities. Be respectful, and it may move up on that list.
 
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T

TJ1

Member
Hi sojourner,

My primary goal here was to--sans any evidence to the contrary--get you to concede that the Trinity doctrine is not taught explicitly in scripture. I appreciate that you did that.

Regarding your belief that this supposed central doctrine of Christianity is still in the scriptures somewhere implicitly, I'll have to side with John Milton, who made this observation about that type of reasoning:

"...surely what is proposed to us as an object of belief, especially in a matter involving a primary article of faith, ought not to be an inference forced and extorted from passages relating to an entirely different subject, in which the readings are sometimes various, and the sense doubtful,--nor hunted out by careful research from among articles and particles,--nor elicited by dint of ingenuity, like the answers of an oracle, from sentences of dark or equivocal meaning--but should be susceptible of abundant proof from the clearest sources. For it is in this that the superiority of the gospel to the law consists; this, and this alone, is consistent with its open simplicity; this is that true light and perspicuity which we had been taught to expect would be its characteristic."​

sojourner said:
asked and answered above.
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Could you please point me to where you you gave your interpretation of Satan as "the ruler of this world"?

sojourner said:
But your snark will knock the answer down in my list of priorities. Be respectful, and it may move up on that list.
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I'm sorry that you feel I'm being snarky, but I've really just been direct with you. I have tried to be respectful by deliberately ignoring the accusations and insults you feel the need to place in your replies to me, because I'm trying to be nice and because the personal stuff doesn't add anything to the discussion. I'd much rather focus on the actual topics, not on whose interpretation is 'heresy' or who is the 'uppity wannabe', and all that. If you are secure in your beliefs, you should be able to give calm, reasonable answers without the emotion.

Enjoy the rest of your night.
 
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sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
TJ1 said:
I'm sorry that you feel I'm being snarky, but I've really just been direct with you. I have tried to be respectful by deliberately ignoring the accusations and insults you feel the need to place in your replies to me, because I'm trying to be nice and because the personal stuff doesn't add anything to the discussion. I'd much rather focus on the actual topics, not on whose interpretation is 'heresy' or who is the 'uppity wannabe', and all that. If you are secure in your beliefs, you should be able to give calm, reasonable answers without the emotion
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Your projecting. It won’t work.
 
T

TJ1

Member
sojourner said:
Your projecting. It won’t work.
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Just stick to the topics and let's see how it goes. I sincerely don't know what you're reading as snark in my posts. You tend to be quite vague in your objections and so I have to ask the same question repeatedly, and for that reason I have been direct with you. If that is upsetting to you or you don't like being challenged, perhaps it's best that we stop here.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
TJ1 said:
Just stick to the topics and let's see how it goes. I sincerely don't know what you're reading as snark in my posts. You tend to be quite vague in your objections and so I have to ask the same question repeatedly, and for that reason I have been direct with you. If that is upsetting to you or you don't like being challenged, perhaps it's best that we stop here.
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Demanding a time frame is snarky, yes. Coming off as “the rational one” is also a gaslighting technique. I’m not upset, yet you claim that I am. Stop the games, stop putting them off on me, and do your homework regarding the passage you quoted. Then we might get somewhere.
 
L

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
The biggest problem with the idea of a trinity is that it limits God to just three "persons" But God is not limited. He wants to adopt thousands or millions of children. These children will be completely equal to Jesus and as such will increase the size of "God" to much more than three. Satan does not want you to realize that you can be part of "God" so he spreads this false trinity idea. God is much more than three and you and I can be part.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
lostwanderingsoul said:
The biggest problem with the idea of a trinity is that it limits God to just three "persons" But God is not limited. He wants to adopt thousands or millions of children. These children will be completely equal to Jesus and as such will increase the size of "God" to much more than three. Satan does not want you to realize that you can be part of "God" so he spreads this false trinity idea. God is much more than three and you and I can be part.
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How is 3 persons “limiting?” Can you provide some theological construct for such alleged limitation? God is Creator (Father). God is Sustainer and Spirit (HS). God is Redeemer and God-With-Us (Son). All aspects of God are present in these three.

So, humanity is saved, because that’s the way God wants it, and so we are included in God. Fully human, fully Divine. That’s fine, but the theological mistake you’re making is that we are all one — one humanity in one God, not “many.” And that aspect of God is expressed as “God the Son” — God-With-Us — the avatar Jesus.

So, if God is “much more than three,” What, biblically, would be the other billion Aspects? We have created order, we have Spirit, and we have humanity. What else is there to be expressed as “God?”

No, I’m afraid your theology is quite muddled and lacking in biblical precedent. You’ll have to do much, much better than this. IMHO, this theological confusion is where Satan rules, if you really want to drag that into the milieu, not in a “limiting Trinity.” Because, from what I know, Satan thrives on this sort of theological mess you’ve made.
 
L

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
sojourner said:
How is 3 persons “limiting?” Can you provide some theological construct for such alleged limitation? God is Creator (Father). God is Sustainer and Spirit (HS). God is Redeemer and God-With-Us (Son). All aspects of God are present in these three.

So, humanity is saved, because that’s the way God wants it, and so we are included in God. Fully human, fully Divine. That’s fine, but the theological mistake you’re making is that we are all one — one humanity in one God, not “many.” And that aspect of God is expressed as “God the Son” — God-With-Us — the avatar Jesus.

So, if God is “much more than three,” What, biblically, would be the other billion Aspects? We have created order, we have Spirit, and we have humanity. What else is there to be expressed as “God?”

No, I’m afraid your theology is quite muddled and lacking in biblical precedent. You’ll have to do much, much better than this. IMHO, this theological confusion is where Satan rules, if you really want to drag that into the milieu, not in a “limiting Trinity.” Because, from what I know, Satan thrives on this sort of theological mess you’ve made.
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Thanks. You are completely right about Satan causing confusion. But who is to say who is confused and who is right? God is NOT aspects. God is a family of spirits. There is the head of the family called the Father and there is a son called Jesus. All other humans have spirits within them and these spirits will return to life when Jesus returns. They will then be equal sons and daughters with Jesus and become part of the "family" of God.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
lostwanderingsoul said:
Thanks. You are completely right about Satan causing confusion. But who is to say who is confused and who is right? God is NOT aspects. God is a family of spirits. There is the head of the family called the Father and there is a son called Jesus. All other humans have spirits within them and these spirits will return to life when Jesus returns. They will then be equal sons and daughters with Jesus and become part of the "family" of God.
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The spirit each human being contains is God’s breath. So, yes, family, but a family of one Spirit.

God is not aspects, but God has aspects. One of them is that God saves. Or isn’t that an aspect of God?
 
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lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
sojourner said:
<sigh> The Hebrew word for “breath” in Genesis is ruach. It also means “spirit.” God blew God’s Spirit into our nostrils.
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OK another sigh. The Bible says God breathed the "breath of life" into Adam. That is different from spirit. Maybe ruach can mean both but the way it is used in Genesis says "breath". Read it again.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
lostwanderingsoul said:
OK another sigh. The Bible says God breathed the "breath of life" into Adam. That is different from spirit. Maybe ruach can mean both but the way it is used in Genesis says "breath". Read it again.
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No. It’s a play on words. “Breath of life” is poetic terminology for “spirit.” sorry. You’re just wrong on this point.
 
syo

syo

Well-Known Member
Father, Son and Holy Spirit are functions of one God. Without these functions, God is not possible. So yes, the christian God is a Trinity.
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Eddi said:
(This is for people who consider themselves some kind of Christian but who reject the trinity)

Many find it mind-boggling and consider it a mystery, and leave it as that

Others are quick to dismiss it as non-sensical rubbish

Some have a major problem with "The Son" part of it

Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

And why are some people so quick to reject it?

It makes perfect sense to me, I have no problem accepting it

Each element of God (each part of the trinity) is a dimension of God which is distinct from any other dimension/element, although all these (Father, Son, Spirit) are consubstantial with the central emergent property - "God"

I understand God as being triangle shaped, as having three equal sides, neither of which make sense alone

So, non-Trinitarians - what's wrong with all this? (pic related)

What are your problems with it?

Why are you non-Trinitarian?

Please tell :)

View attachment 35880
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Deuteronomy 6:4
Shema Yisrael, Adonai eloheinu, Adonai echad
(using Lord because this is for teaching.)
Meaning:
Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Enough said.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
IndigoChild5559 said:
Deuteronomy 6:4
Shema Yisrael, Adonai eloheinu, Adonai echad
(using Lord because this is for teaching.)
Meaning:
Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Enough said.
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...Except that the doctrine explicitly goes out of its way to maintain that God is one.
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Eddi said:
(This is for people who consider themselves some kind of Christian but who reject the trinity)

Many find it mind-boggling and consider it a mystery, and leave it as that

Others are quick to dismiss it as non-sensical rubbish

Some have a major problem with "The Son" part of it

Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

And why are some people so quick to reject it?

It makes perfect sense to me, I have no problem accepting it

Each element of God (each part of the trinity) is a dimension of God which is distinct from any other dimension/element, although all these (Father, Son, Spirit) are consubstantial with the central emergent property - "God"

I understand God as being triangle shaped, as having three equal sides, neither of which make sense alone

So, non-Trinitarians - what's wrong with all this? (pic related)

What are your problems with it?

Why are you non-Trinitarian?

Please tell :)

View attachment 35880
Click to expand...

Why split god up if he is one?

If god is GOD he shouldn't need to have different forms of him to communicate with other people.

Maybe it's more how people want to relate to him in three parts rather than him being three parts of one whole. Outside of that, I'm not sure where the teaching came from since it's not a Jewish one.
 
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