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The Mormons are being sued for doing the right thing:

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Why just ministers?
Because religion is different from the other aspects of religious people's lives.

No guarantees, of course. But if someone truly believes that their minister has a connection to God(a moral authority) that other people don't have, it's quite possible that admonitions and advice from that minister will be heard differently than if it comes from anybody else.

Perhaps you don't understand that. It doesn't make sense to anybody who is irreligious, I suppose, unless they have a solid foundation of religiosity.
Tom
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Because religion is different from the other aspects of religious people's lives.
Sure, but which of those differences warrant a different approach on this issue?

I mean, most of your concerns would apply to other mandatory reporters, too.

No guarantees, of course. But if someone truly believes that their minister has a connection to God(a moral authority) that other people don't have, it's quite possible that admonitions and advice from that minister will be heard differently than if it comes from anybody else.
Only admonitions in the confessional, though.

In most churches, one would assume that any parishoner could have inferred from Sunday sermons/homilies that sexually assaulting children is strongly condemned by that church's teachings and probably by the minister personally as well.

When we're talking about the confessions that mandatory reporting would cover, we're talking about either:

- confessions from the victims, or
- predators who realize that what they're doing goes against their understanding of God's will (otherwise, why confess it as a sin?) but do it anyway.

It's like you're assuming that these predators will recognize authority from their priest, but only in the confessional and not the rest of the time.

Perhaps you don't understand that. It doesn't make sense to anybody who is irreligious, I suppose, unless they have a solid foundation of religiosity.
Tom
I don't understand your position, but I don't think being religious would help me in that regard.

I certainly don't understand why you assume that people who believe that unforgiven mortal sin would condemn them to Hell wouldn't confess if they knew they'd be reported, since this implies that they consider Hell preferable to prison.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
What makes you think hat atheists cannot have morals? Now atheists are not perfect, but they tend to have better morals than Christians. But your probably do not understand why.

By the way, if they "got word to the family" then there could be a legitimate lawsuit against the panel. They did not do that. They alerted the authorities. I am betting that the family knew already.

Where does that remark come from, "you probably do not understand why"? Atheists can have excellent morals, and I do understand why.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
What is a true Mormon? I ask because in as much as the local church panel heard his confession wouldn't that indicate he was a true Mormon, or do they hear confessions from non-Mormons as well?


.

The word true is a synonym for faithful. As is "he was true to the cause". By breaking the church laws, he clearly wasn't a true/faithful Mormon.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
I've never been to confession myself, but I've been told it doesn't work the way you describe.

... but the scenario you describe sounds very strange:

- this church offers mental health supports to predators who confess crimes.
- the church apparently doesn't try to connect its parishioners with mental health supports outside of confession.


... and stays in what he considers to be a state of mortal sin? He prefers Hell to prison?

So for the predator in this scenario:

- his faith is important enough to him to care about confession, even if there's a significant cost associated with it (i.e. pressure from the priest to confess, which would end up with him in prison).

- his faith is unimportant enough that he'd abandon confession if there was a somewhat higher cost associated with it (i.e. prison from the priest reporting him).

- his faith is also so unimportant that the idea that a sin is effectively unpardonable wouldn't stop him from committing the sin.

This seems like a very narrow category of predator you've imagined up.

It is your understanding of human nature that might be narrow. A person who begins the process of changing something wrong with their life doesn't always completely have full conviction from the very start.

Let's take someone who is overweight and feels they need to lose a few kilos. They may take up a gym membership but never actually go to gym. Or they may start a diet they never see through. It may take them many attempts before they actually have the full conviction to see through their efforts to the end.

Likewise a person confessing a major sin may not yet be ready for full path of redemption. They are just taking a first step. So there is absolutely no guarantee that by the time they go to confess to their clergyman they are also ready to face the jail time associated with their deed. The one doesn't necessarily lead to the other.

And contrary to your opinion I think this description covers far more people who confess serious crimes than not.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
The word true is a synonym for faithful. As is "he was true to the cause". By breaking the church laws, he clearly wasn't a true/faithful Mormon.
Well, here's a big problem.
Your meaning is rather more restrictive than mine.

I see no objective meaning for many of the words used here. So, when it comes to certain labels, like Catholic or Mormon or Hindu, I just accept whatever someone labels themselves. Because it's so subjective.

A person could be excommunicated from the RCC, but if they still identify as Catholic they are. They're an excommunicated Catholic. There's a RF member who is both hard atheist and Hindu. I can easily relate to that, as a non-theist Catholic. Staunch believers in every religion have done horrible things, that doesn't necessarily change their religious affiliation. Nor does it mean their behavior is necessarily reflective of the rest of the organization.

There just aren't any clear lines here.
Tom
 

SoyLeche

meh...
The word true is a synonym for faithful. As is "he was true to the cause". By breaking the church laws, he clearly wasn't a true/faithful Mormon.
Under a strict adherence to that definition I’d have a hard time believing that a “true Mormon” exists.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Mormons face $9.5 million lawsuit after reporting an abusive father

The wife of a man that sexually molested his daughter, and yes he has been found guilty and is in prison so no need of the term "allegedly". is suing the church for $9.5 million. She lists herself and four of their five children (the daughter that was molested is not listed) as plaintiffs. He went to a panel of elders of his church and confessed, hoping for forgiveness and absolution. It did not quite work out that way.
Being sued or facing a lawsuit does not mean that any Court has found against you.
But what amazes me is how much plaintiffs demand in civil cases. The US system does seem crazy because of the awards it dishes out to successful claimants.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Being sued or facing a lawsuit does not mean that any Court has found against you.
But what amazes me is how much plaintiffs demand in civil cases. The US system does seem crazy because of the awards it dishes out to successful claimants.
there is a term for it here. People that have "deep pockets" are sued. That is people or organizations with a lot of money. Even if a company or person with deep pockets played only a minor role they may be sued as well. And they may end up paying far more than anyone else. Suing me won't get anyone all that much. Suing Du Pont could get someone millions.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Well, here's a big problem.
Your meaning is rather more restrictive than mine.

I see no objective meaning for many of the words used here. So, when it comes to certain labels, like Catholic or Mormon or Hindu, I just accept whatever someone labels themselves. Because it's so subjective.

A person could be excommunicated from the RCC, but if they still identify as Catholic they are. They're an excommunicated Catholic. There's a RF member who is both hard atheist and Hindu. I can easily relate to that, as a non-theist Catholic. Staunch believers in every religion have done horrible things, that doesn't necessarily change their religious affiliation. Nor does it mean their behavior is necessarily reflective of the rest of the organization.

There just aren't any clear lines here.
Tom

Well that's the point. The person is a mormon. A Mormon is a member of the LDS church. The church has rules. Those who adhere to them are true to the faith. Those who don't are not true. They are still mormons though, just not true mormons.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Under a strict adherence to that definition I’d have a hard time believing that a “true Mormon” exists.

What makes you think so. What do you think the cause of Mormons is that would be so hard for someone to live up to?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
He wasn't a true Mormon....

Anybody can see that.
Tom

Sometimes the right action is to see that justice is done to one's own. Please note that the poster did not use the "Not a real Mormon" excuse. Credit given where credit is due.

The word true is a synonym for faithful. As is "he was true to the cause". By breaking the church laws, he clearly wasn't a true/faithful Mormon.

Well that's the point. The person is a mormon. A Mormon is a member of the LDS church. The church has rules. Those who adhere to them are true to the faith. Those who don't are not true. They are still mormons though, just not true mormons.

@Subduction Zone .:p:p
Tom
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
A Mormon is a member of the LDS church. The church has rules. Those who adhere to them are true to the faith. Those who don't are not true. They are still mormons though, just not true mormons.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
But by this standard, a cup of coffee with breakfast or a glass of Chianti with lasagna means a person isn't a true Mormon.
Tom
 

SoyLeche

meh...
What makes you think so. What do you think the cause of Mormons is that would be so hard for someone to live up to?
Any number of things, depending on how detailed you want to be. I'm sure you could find something you're not living up to if you really want to self-refect.

The point is that trying to wave away someone's affiliation by saying they weren't a "true" X is a faulty argument. The guy was a baptized member of the church, and at the time of the confession was apparently an active member with full rights and privileges. I would hope that soon thereafter he was stripped of some of those rights and privileges, but trying to separate his membership into some "not true" bucket just makes the arguer look petty.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Correct me if I'm wrong.
But by this standard, a cup of coffee with breakfast or a glass of Chianti with lasagna means a person isn't a true Mormon.
Tom

The standard for being a true mormon is generally classed as so living as to be "worthy" to enter into the any of the mormon temples. There is an interview with specific questions that helps determine this worthiness. If you cannot pass the interview, you cannot enter the temple. Those who so live as to qualify to enter the temple are true mormons (they are true to the faith). Those whose lives preclude them from entering the temple are not true mormons.

Now to answer your question specifically: one of the questions in the interview is whether you keep the law of health. If the answer to that question is no then you are not a true mormon.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Any number of things, depending on how detailed you want to be. I'm sure you could find something you're not living up to if you really want to self-refect.

The point is that trying to wave away someone's affiliation by saying they weren't a "true" X is a faulty argument. The guy was a baptized member of the church, and at the time of the confession was apparently an active member with full rights and privileges. I would hope that soon thereafter he was stripped of some of those rights and privileges, but trying to separate his membership into some "not true" bucket just makes the arguer look petty.

I don't get you. I'm not arguing that the man is not a mormon. I am saying that as soon as, and for as long as, he engaged in acts that were serious breaches of the churches code of conduct (and you are informed what those serious breaches are prior to baptism) he ceased be a true (I.e. faithful) mormon. I don't see how there can be any controversy in my statement.

When you are baptized in the church you promise to keep the church's code of conduct. Failure to keep it is a failure to remain true. There's just no other way to put it.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
I don't get you. I'm not arguing that the man is not a mormon. I am saying that as soon as, and for as long as, he engaged in acts that were serious breaches of the churches code of conduct (and you are informed what those serious breaches are prior to baptism) he ceased be a true (I.e. faithful) mormon. I don't see how there can be any controversy in my statement.

When you are baptized in the church you promise to keep the church's code of conduct. Failure to keep it is a failure to remain true. There's just no other way to put it.
My complaint is against the use of the No True Scotsman fallacy in general.
 
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