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Proof Jesus said he is not God in atleast 3 Gospel accounts

moorea944

Well-Known Member
Thank you.

In response, let me say that the word 'Logos' is not Hebrew but Greek, and refers to words, or the Word. The translators gave it a capital letter for good reason, because Christ represents all the words of God. Confirmation is found in Revelation 19:13, 'And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.' [See 1John 5:7, 'For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three agree in one.'

Any effort to contort scripture will inevitably end in failure. ALL scripture must be shown to fit, and have coherence.

The scriptures clearly demonstrate that Jesus Christ was the true mediator between mankind and God. 1 Timothy 2:5 says, 'For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;' You might immediately think, yes, the MAN Christ Jesus. But now look carefully at the words of Paul to the Galatians, 3:20. 'Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.'

To be a mediator, you have to represent both sides, and Jesus Christ did this by being fully human and fully God. The scripture says that 'a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.' Jesus is a man, but he has within him the Spirit of God. Jesus Christ had the fulness of the Godhead bodily (as I keep repeating!). The Holy Spirit was not given by measure [John 3:34 says, 'For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.'

So, the question that you should answer honestly is this, Was God in Christ? Was God, in fulness, and without measure, in Jesus Christ? You appear to be saying no, but I would like to hear it plainly stated!

As regards the Rock, look at 2 Samuel 23:2,3. See also Deuteronomy 32:3,4. Both refer to the LORD as the Rock.


[So, the question that you should answer honestly is this, Was God in Christ? Was God, in fulness, and without measure, in Jesus Christ? You appear to be saying no, but I would like to hear it plainly stated!]

And first of all, yes, Logos is a Greek word, and I knew that. My bad. Sorry about that one. I was thinking of other Hebrew words and was typing to fast. My bad.....

But to answer this question, yes, scripture does tell us that God was in Christ. But that doesnt make Jesus God. God was "working through" his son at all times. But it doesnt make Jesus God. A God cannot die or be seen. Jesus was seen and he died.

In your eyes, why does Jesus have to be God or a God. Why cant he just be like us with the same nature?...... Just curious.
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
I have tried to lay out a logical and reasoned argument for you to follow, but what I am now getting from you is a nonsense. Are you suggesting that my reasoned responses to your posts make me stubborn, iniquitous and idolatrous? If so, it's a good thing that I have God as my judge! [Psalm 96:13] Or should I say the Lord Jesus, since he will do the judging [Acts 10:40-42].

P1. God alone is my judge [Psalm 96:13]
P2. Jesus Christ is my judge [Acts 10:40-42]
C. Jesus Christ is God [Acts 10:43 > Mark 2:7]


[P1. God alone is my judge [Psalm 96:13]]

Correct, God alone is "my judge". Jesus wasnt born yet. People only knew of God, not the Lord Jesus Christ.......

[P2. Jesus Christ is my judge [Acts 10:40-42]]

Correct again, God gave Jesus that right and privilege to judge. He gave all power and authority.

[C. Jesus Christ is God [Acts 10:43 > Mark 2:7]]

Ughhhhh.... Why does Jesus have to be God to you? I"m not getting it....
These verses that you are giving us.... how are you getting Jesus is God? Has nothing to do with it.

Mark 2v7 "Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?"
Who's saying this? The Jews are..... That is because they dont accept that Jesus is the Messiah. So they only know God. Yahweh. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Not Jesus. Jesus was a man that they hated. That's why they're saying that. Your making Jesus God. You have to stop that!!!
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
[So, the question that you should answer honestly is this, Was God in Christ? Was God, in fulness, and without measure, in Jesus Christ? You appear to be saying no, but I would like to hear it plainly stated!]

And first of all, yes, Logos is a Greek word, and I knew that. My bad. Sorry about that one. I was thinking of other Hebrew words and was typing to fast. My bad.....

But to answer this question, yes, scripture does tell us that God was in Christ. But that doesnt make Jesus God. God was "working through" his son at all times. But it doesnt make Jesus God. A God cannot die or be seen. Jesus was seen and he died.

In your eyes, why does Jesus have to be God or a God. Why cant he just be like us with the same nature?...... Just curious.

I believe that our understanding of God changes as the truth is revealed to us. Many years ago, as a young man, I attended a group that taught the unitarian message that Jesus was not God. I accepted the teaching for a while, but as I searched the scriptures for myself I became increasingly uneasy with the stance that unitarians took. It simply didn't fit with all the scriptures. Then, when I became born-again, and received baptism in the Holy Spirit, I felt I was given a new understanding of scripture, led by the Spirit that now dwelt within me.

In Matthew 21:11, it says, 'And when he [Jesus] was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying Who is this? And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.' This is an interesting passage, because the multitude expressed the general attitude that people had towards the man Jesus. He was seen as a prophet of God.

Now look at Matthew 16:13-17. In this passage we have Simon Peter and the other disciples with Jesus. They know Jesus better than the multitudes. Jesus asks them, 'Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He [Jesus] saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon BarJona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.'

Only the Spirit can teach us the whole truth about Christ Jesus. The Spirit does not look at the outward appearance of a man, it looks at the heart and at the truth. Simon Peter was given a glimpse of this when he exclaimed, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

The disciple Thomas continued to doubt that Jesus was the Son of the living God. For him, the evidence had to be resurrection from the dead. But when he sees that Jesus has been resurrected from the dead he exclaims, My Lord and My God! Now, we might reasonable ask, Who raised Jesus from the dead, was it not God? How can Jesus be God if he is raised to life by God? Well, read these words carefully! John 2:19, 'Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.' Who will raise it up?! How can Jesus raise up his own body? The answer is that the Spirit of God was within him at the time that he spoke these words.
 
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moorea944

Well-Known Member
I believe that our understanding of God changes as the truth is revealed to us. Many years ago, as a young man, I attended a group the taught the unitarian message that Jesus was not God. I accepted the teaching for a while, but as I searched the scriptures for myself I became increasingly uneasy with the stance that unitarians took. It simply didn't fit with all the scriptures. Then, when I became born-again, and received baptism in the Holy Spirit, I felt I was given a new understanding of scripture, led by the Spirit that now dwelt within me.

In Matthew 21:11, it says, 'And when he [Jesus] was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying Who is this? And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.' This is an interesting passage, because the multitude expressed the general attitude that people had towards the man Jesus. He was seen as a prophet of God.

Now look at Matthew 16:13-17. In this passage we have Simon Peter and the other disciples with Jesus. They know Jesus better than the multitudes. Jesus asks them, 'Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He [Jesus] saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon BarJona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.'

Only the Spirit can teach us the whole truth about Christ Jesus. The Spirit does not look at the outward appearance of a man, it looks at the heart and at the truth. Simon Peter was given a glimpse of this when he exclaimed, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

The disciple Thomas continued to doubt that Jesus was the Son of the living God. For him, the evidence had to be resurrection from the dead. But when he sees that Jesus has been resurrected from the dead he exclaims, My Lord and My God! Now, we might reasonable ask, Who raised Jesus from the dead, was it not God? How can Jesus be God if he is raised to life by God? Well, read these words carefully! John 2:19, 'Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.' Who will raise it up?! How can Jesus raise up his own body? The answer is that the Spirit of God was within him at the time that he spoke these words.


[I believe that our understanding of God changes as the truth is revealed to us.]

lol, that's because you believe in the trinity.
My belief doesnt change........

[Who raised Jesus from the dead, was it not God? How can Jesus be God if he is raised to life by God? ]

That's correct. We now both agree on something. That God raised Jesus, not Jesus raising Jesus.

[How can Jesus raise up his own body? The answer is that the Spirit of God was within him at the time that he spoke these words.]

So the spirit of God raised up Jesus? Doesnt scripture tell us that God did it? Jesus was dead, how could he possibly raise himself?.........
 

Iymus

Active Member
Did you ever decide whether or not the LORD God was the Rock? [Deuteronomy 32:4]
I believe that our understanding of God changes as the truth is revealed to us. Many years ago, as a young man, I attended a group the taught the unitarian message that Jesus was not God. I accepted the teaching for a while, but as I searched the scriptures for myself I became increasingly uneasy with the stance that unitarians took. It simply didn't fit with all the scriptures. Then, when I became born-again, and received baptism in the Holy Spirit, I felt I was given a new understanding of scripture, led by the Spirit that now dwelt within me.

In Matthew 21:11, it says, 'And when he [Jesus] was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying Who is this? And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.' This is an interesting passage, because the multitude expressed the general attitude that people had towards the man Jesus. He was seen as a prophet of God.

Now look at Matthew 16:13-17. In this passage we have Simon Peter and the other disciples with Jesus. They know Jesus better than the multitudes. Jesus asks them, 'Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He [Jesus] saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon BarJona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.'

Only the Spirit can teach us the whole truth about Christ Jesus. The Spirit does not look at the outward appearance of a man, it looks at the heart and at the truth. Simon Peter was given a glimpse of this when he exclaimed, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

The disciple Thomas continued to doubt that Jesus was the Son of the living God. For him, the evidence had to be resurrection from the dead. But when he sees that Jesus has been resurrected from the dead he exclaims, My Lord and My God! Now, we might reasonable ask, Who raised Jesus from the dead, was it not God? How can Jesus be God if he is raised to life by God? Well, read these words carefully! John 2:19, 'Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.' Who will raise it up?! How can Jesus raise up his own body? The answer is that the Spirit of God was within him at the time that he spoke these words.

1. It was not of Jesus own will and authority in which his body was raised up: Neither was it his work.

Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Joh 10:37
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Joh 7:17
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
------------------------

2. The Book of Acts validates the above.

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

3. Essentially If any man understands the will /authority of God, they will know whether it be of God, or Christ speak of himself.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Mark 2v7 "Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?"
Who's saying this? The Jews are..... That is because they dont accept that Jesus is the Messiah. So they only know God. Yahweh. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Not Jesus. Jesus was a man that they hated. That's why they're saying that. Your making Jesus God. You have to stop that!!![/QUOTE]

If a man claims to be able to forgive sins, then he is blaspheming! The Jews who heard and watched Jesus that day were not rejecting Jesus as the Messiah, they were rejecting him because he claimed to forgive sins. These Jews, like many today, thought that the Messiah was going to be born a human being, and live as a human being, albeit a great leader. That's why, in time, it's likely that we shall see false messiahs emerge from amongst the ultra-orthodox community. They simply do not believe that the Messiah is the Son of God. They believe that the Messiah is the son of David. That's why Jesus confronted them with the truth about Psalm 110.

I've discussed Psalm 110 with a number of Jews, and the standard response is that it is ABOUT David, not OF [written by] David. They say that the Lord who sits at the right hand of God is not the Messiah. This is an understandable and consistent response, because to admit that the Messiah comes from the throne of God is to admit that Jesus must be the Messiah, and that he has the full authority of God.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
[I believe that our understanding of God changes as the truth is revealed to us.]

lol, that's because you believe in the trinity.
My belief doesnt change........

[Who raised Jesus from the dead, was it not God? How can Jesus be God if he is raised to life by God? ]

That's correct. We now both agree on something. That God raised Jesus, not Jesus raising Jesus.

[How can Jesus raise up his own body? The answer is that the Spirit of God was within him at the time that he spoke these words.]

So the spirit of God raised up Jesus? Doesnt scripture tell us that God did it? Jesus was dead, how could he possibly raise himself?.........

Well, I believe that if you are honest to the revelation given by God in his word, you will eventually see the need to change.

Remember, when Thomas said, My Lord and my God, he used the word 'my' twice. This is instructive, because it tells us about the proximity of God to his heart.

I make the claim, as all born-again believers do, that God has shown his face, that he has come amongst us, with the purpose of taking away our sin and baptising us with his own Holy Spirit. I do not have the fulness of the godhead within me, but I do have it by measure of my faith and obedience. This places me within the spiritual body of Christ; meanwhile, the head, Jesus Christ our Lord, is enthroned in heaven in unity with the Father. This means that I share the same Holy Spirit as all other born-again believers. This invisible body is the worldwide Church to which I belong. Denominations mean nothing to me.

I wonder what knowledge you have of your God, and where that knowledge comes from. For the unitarian, the transcendent God remains transcendent. For the trinitarian, God comes to earth, and gifts individuals with his Spirit. This enables those who are born-again to know their God personally; indeed, in a way that is perplexing to those who have no such knowledge of His grace.

In 2 Chron. 6:18. Solomon asked a very important question. It was intended for our instruction and reflection. He asked, 'But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth?'
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
1. It was not of Jesus own will and authority in which his body was raised up: Neither was it his work.

Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Joh 10:37
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Joh 7:17
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
------------------------

2. The Book of Acts validates the above.

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

3. Essentially If any man understands the will /authority of God, they will know whether it be of God, or Christ speak of himself.

Does this mean that you don't believe John 2:19 and Matthew 26:61?
Once again, you are having to select only those scriptures that suit your purpose. I am saying that ALL scripture must be coherent.

Jesus said, 'scripture cannot be broken', but to be persuaded of the unitarian interpretation many scriptures have to be twisted, distorted or ignored.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
[I believe that our understanding of God changes as the truth is revealed to us.]

lol, that's because you believe in the trinity.
My belief doesnt change........

[Who raised Jesus from the dead, was it not God? How can Jesus be God if he is raised to life by God? ]

That's correct. We now both agree on something. That God raised Jesus, not Jesus raising Jesus.

[How can Jesus raise up his own body? The answer is that the Spirit of God was within him at the time that he spoke these words.]

So the spirit of God raised up Jesus? Doesnt scripture tell us that God did it? Jesus was dead, how could he possibly raise himself?.........

I've been thinking about my relationship with God, and how the words I use in prayer reflect this relationship. When I pray, I pray to my Father in Heaven, in the name of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I am able to claim sonship in Christ, and use His name, because it is His Spirit that is in me - the Holy Spirit.

How do you address your God in prayer?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
[How can Jesus raise up his own body? The answer is that the Spirit of God was within him at the time that he spoke these words.]

So the spirit of God raised up Jesus? Doesnt scripture tell us that God did it? Jesus was dead, how could he possibly raise himself?.........

Sorry to inundate you with replies, but this is important, and I didn't respond to it properly. You asked, how could Jesus possibly raise himself?

Jesus likened his death and entombment to Jonah spending three days and nights in the belly of the great fish. If you read the account of this episode in the book of Jonah, you will see that it says, 'Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of my affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me. Then said I, I am cast out of thy sight: yet will I look again toward thy holy temple. The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.'

This is very illuminating because we see that both the body and soul of Jonah [Jesus] descended into hell [sheol, the grave]. God was not in the grave. Instead, Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God, showing that he was reliant upon God to raise him up from the grave. Finally, God hears Jonah's prayer and his life is brought up from corruption.

I believe this story of Jonah pictures what happened to Jesus. When Jesus hung on the cross he exclaimed, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [Psalm 22] Was he lying? Of course not! He was in agony, not only because he was crucified, but because the Spirit of God had left him. Jesus was in darkness and alone, bearing the sins of the world in his flesh. God cannot, and does not, abide sin. So the Spirit left Jesus to return to the Father, and returned not again until three days and nights had passed. This is when Jesus was raised to life, for God, the Spirit of life, returned after three days and nights to resurrect his body and soul.
 
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moorea944

Well-Known Member
Sorry to inundate you with replies, but this is important, and I didn't respond to it properly. You asked, how could Jesus possibly raise himself?

Jesus likened his death and entombment to Jonah spending three days and nights in the belly of the great fish. If you read the account of this episode in the book of Jonah, you will see that it says, 'Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of my affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me. Then said I, I am cast out of thy sight: yet will I look again toward thy holy temple. The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.'

This is very illuminating because we see that both the body and soul of Jonah [Jesus] descended into hell [sheol, the grave]. God was not in the grave. Instead, Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God, showing that he was reliant upon God to raise him up from the grave. Finally, God hears Jonah's prayer and his life is brought up from corruption.

I believe this story of Jonah pictures what happened to Jesus. When Jesus hung on the cross he exclaimed, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [Psalm 22] Was he lying? Of course not! He was in agony, not only because he was crucified, but because the Spirit of God had left him. Jesus was in darkness and alone, bearing the sins of the world in his flesh. God cannot, and does not, abide sin. So the Spirit left Jesus to return to the Father, and returned not again until three days and nights had passed. This is when Jesus was raised to life, for God, the Spirit of life, returned after three days and nights to resurrect his body and soul.

Jesus didnt raise himself, God raised him. God had never forsaken his son. God was always with him. Maybe Jesus said that because he was in agony. God was never ever angry at his son.

The secret of the cross is love, the love of God and the love of His Son. Whatever else we many have to consider, let us lay down this foundation: The motivating force for redemption is love,

John 3v16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Romans 5v8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Gal. 2v20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Love is the reason for redemption. Love flowed first from God and therefore from the Son whom He sent into the world. Love cannot be and must not be reduced to law or considered in terms of rights and earnings. Love owes nothing to any goodness or merit in us. Loves comes from God who is "merciful and gracious".

The cross is a source of the forgiveness of sins. It is not a debt settled by due payment. It is not a substitutionary offering whereby someone is paid a price so that others might then go free. No, the cross is the means of forgiveness and forgiveness is an act of grace and not of the rights or earnings by the settlement of a debt.


Plus, not understanding why your saying body and soul. Are you saying we have two different things in us? A body and a soul? Are you saying that we are "given" a soul? Because in scripture, a soul is someone who is alive. It is a person, a living being.
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
I've been thinking about my relationship with God, and how the words I use in prayer reflect this relationship. When I pray, I pray to my Father in Heaven, in the name of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I am able to claim sonship in Christ, and use His name, because it is His Spirit that is in me - the Holy Spirit.

How do you address your God in prayer?

I think the Holy Spirit is from God. Were you saying that it is from Jesus?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I think the Holy Spirit is from God. Were you saying that it is from Jesus?

The Holy Spirit is sent from the Father and the Son. See John 1:33 and John 14:26. Look also at John 5:18.

This is what it says in Romans 8:9. 'But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.'

The Holy Spirit is here described in two different ways. Firstly as the 'Spirit of God', then as the 'Spirit of Christ'. This tells us that the Spirit of God that filled Jesus Christ is the same Spirit that fills me! It may sound crazy but this is the trinity. The Father, above, the Son, amongst, and the Holy Spirit, within.

If we lived in OT times, there would be no trinity. We would all worship the one God of Israel and not know his face or countenance. We would all be reliant upon prophets, and the guidance of the law. This is no longer the case because we can now have direct spiritual contact with our God, through Jesus Christ his Son.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Jesus didnt raise himself, God raised him. God had never forsaken his son. God was always with him. Maybe Jesus said that because he was in agony. God was never ever angry at his son.

The secret of the cross is love, the love of God and the love of His Son. Whatever else we many have to consider, let us lay down this foundation: The motivating force for redemption is love,

John 3v16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Romans 5v8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Gal. 2v20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Love is the reason for redemption. Love flowed first from God and therefore from the Son whom He sent into the world. Love cannot be and must not be reduced to law or considered in terms of rights and earnings. Love owes nothing to any goodness or merit in us. Loves comes from God who is "merciful and gracious".

The cross is a source of the forgiveness of sins. It is not a debt settled by due payment. It is not a substitutionary offering whereby someone is paid a price so that others might then go free. No, the cross is the means of forgiveness and forgiveness is an act of grace and not of the rights or earnings by the settlement of a debt.


Plus, not understanding why your saying body and soul. Are you saying we have two different things in us? A body and a soul? Are you saying that we are "given" a soul? Because in scripture, a soul is someone who is alive. It is a person, a living being.

God did forsake his son. You are probably familiar with the verse from Isaiah 53, 'All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.' Our iniquity, or sin, was laid on Jesus. He bore it 'as a lamb to the slaughter', so that we might be freed from our imprisonment in sin. THIS, MY FRIEND, IS TRUE LOVE!!
 

Iymus

Active Member
Does this mean that you don't believe John 2:19 and Matthew 26:61?
Once again, you are having to select only those scriptures that suit your purpose. I am saying that ALL scripture must be coherent.

Jesus said, 'scripture cannot be broken', but to be persuaded of the unitarian interpretation many scriptures have to be twisted, distorted or ignored.

1. Jesus did not raise himself up by his own will, authority, or works. Therefore Jesus did not raise himself up by his own power; God our Father did.

1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

1Co 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

2. It is not me denying those verses but knowing what is expedient and seeking the honour that comes from God our Father alone.

Joh 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

3. Once again Jesus did not raise himself up by his own will, authority, or works; therefore Jesus did not raise himself up by his own power.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

4. It has always been about you denying that God our Father himself is the only true God and Lord God.

5. Once again Mat 7:21 & Joh 7:17
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Maybe I can answer this objection.

There is only one God, and Jesus did worship God. Jesus, like every other Jew, was man with a soul and spirit. Throughout the years of his growing up under the law [Galatians 4:4], Jesus would have worshipped as every other Jew worshipped. His worship would have been directed to the one God of Israel.

The Spirit that Jesus receives at baptism places him in a new relationship to his God, for Jesus now has the Spirit of Sonship, the Holy Spirit. This Spirit enables him to say, Abba, Father. [Galatians 4:4-7]

The God that Jesus worshiped should be the God whom all his followers worship.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
According to Trinitarianism, it is FALSE to say that the Father ALONE is the One True God. For Trinitarians, the One True God is three persons, not one person alone.
If the One True God can be one of three persons, then you have three persons who are the One True God..That makes three god's.

For example, Trinitarianism teaches:

The One True God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.(true)
The One True God is the Father(false)

The One True God can not be a Triune God if the Father is the One True God.

That's like saying:

My FAMILY consist of Me, My Wife and our Child.(true)
My FAMILY is ME(false)
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Let's begin with the 'Simple Equation'.

Nowhere in any of these three Gospel passages does it say that Jesus is not good. What it says, is that only God is good. So let's make this our Premise No1.

P1. God alone is good.

When it comes to premise number 2, we cannot say that Jesus is not good because nowhere in scripture does it say that Jesus is not good! In fact, it says exactly the opposite! 1 Peter 2:22, 'Who [Jesus] did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:'. So, instead of saying that Jesus is not good, we are forced to write the opposite.

P2. Jesus is good.

Which leads us to the exact opposite conclusion to the one that you have reached, namely,

C. Jesus is God.
First, you need to explain what it means that "God alone is good". According to premise number 2, it means that God does not sin, neither is guile found in his mouth".

Perhaps what Jesus meant when he said "why call me good, there is none good but God", he was referring to himself being in the weakness of the flesh whereby men are tempted.

P! God alone is good because He is not in the flesh of man.

P2 Jesus was in the flesh of man.

C Jesus was not good.
 
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