The Actual Problem With Gay Marriages?

Father Heathen said:

With the anime avatar you knew it would be a neckbeardtastic post.

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I automatically assume that people online with female anime avatars are psychopathic male trolls and ignore accordingly. It's never steered me wrong before.

Thirza Fallen said:

With 613 Levitical laws in the OT to adhere to, their god is a punitive law maker.

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I knew I exaggerated with trecillion, but just loved the word. So, only 613 in Leviticus. Now I understand why some choose NT over OT.

What do you think is the reason, that people are so obsessed to follow rules (613++) of their God?

I think they behaved bad in the past and feel guilty (or were taught to be/feel guilty). Following rules of God makes them feel less guilt-pain. Or they are scared to be send to Hell if not following a certain quota. Or (are made to) believe God won't love them IF they don't follow all rules.

Otherwise they could make life much less complex. Their God also said "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and adding "this is the Highest", so all other rules won't apply if going against "the Highest".

So God did give an escape for the 613 rules in Leviticus IMO. Guilt feeling must be huge, if they can't see the simple way their God offered.

So maybe God gave this "crazy" many rules to make them realize "oh my God, I don't love myself". My Master did this with pleasers. Just gave them something they could just not manage. He did with me. I was a bit extreme with fasting, so He told me to fast on watermelon only for 3 month (after 14h; before just water). After 50 days I broke down. Another man had an even more terrible youth and became even more harsher to himself and a bigger pleaser to God. My Master told him "only raw for 3 years". He broke down after 18 month.

I see similarities in all Bible rules. It's not about God punishing. It's about God trying hard to show you, that He only wants you to love yourself. So God's intention was very positive. But the one receiving the message did not get it immediately. Hence all confusion.

I like your signature, that sums it up nicely: "In essentials, unity; In non-essentials, liberty; In all things, love"

Samantha Rinne said:

So what exactly is the problem?

Well, there's theories:

-On is to ignore that there is a problem and to be pro-gay marriages. But even if you are for gay marriages, this is still ignoring that something about this God doesn't like. Which means I'll skip to the meat of it:
- Awhile back, the Episcopal church voted to split over gay marriage. They became Anglican and Episcopalian. Then Methodists voted against, but wound up being forced to split anyway. Let's read Genesis, with of course those offensive words like 'man' and 'woman' changed to person.
"For this reason a person shall leave their father and mother and be united to their wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one. Therefore, what God has joined together let not man separate. " It's not relevant who is the husband and who is the wife (but from previous threads, you'll note that I do not believe in two parties working or two parties raising children, one cannot work in terms of the child, the other fails economically). What is relevant is the attempt to divide the church. God has married the church, united it, and people should not be voting to split.
-There's also the fact that this whole thing smacks of government intervention, specifically a secular system trying to impose Obama era rules on a public who would rather go to church to worship.
-Oh yeah and there's also the classic arguments that it's calling something sinful morally good, or a gateway drug to other odd behavior, or that it ignores the actual meaning of marriage (which is not for couples but for families, though I could contend this last one would be fine if gays could adopt more easily). But Ibthink these are secondary to the two real issues.

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There is absolutely no problem with gay marriage. The problem stems from individuals and institutions who insist on forcing their homophobic views onto secular society. Gay marriage doesn't break any secular laws in our society. If you want to live in a society where religions dictate the laws you're more than welcome to move to Iran or Saudi Arabia.

The tools that will demolish the modern civilization in my opinion
1) secularism and bowing of the Judism and church to anti-religion storms, Islam still stands fast against all odds to bring it down or to mutate it on false allegations of terrorism, atavistic and so on .., It is still pristine as revealed to Muhammed the prophet regarding religious guidance on worshipping and the Dos and the Don`ts.
2) weird sexuality
3) atheism
4) religious extremism

3 & 4 are the main plights of of our time (troubled world with no ethics and multi-faceted injustice with jungle laws). A massive destructive war is looming, and I hope I am wrong with this prophesy. Dostoevsky said: If there is no God, then every thing can be legalized. Bush invaded Iraq falsely to dismantle Saddam from his weapons of mass destruction. Trump who is opennly frank said he wants the oil.
The UN can not even codemn for once in history the Israelis for the atrocities they commit in Philistine, the Hindu government in India issue a strange law against Muslims causing unruly rest with strange silence from most countries, Minorities all over the world are oppressed .Very Heinous UN, only successful to twist the arms of poor countries on a gesture from the bully guys. Things under secular liberty are so miserable and pessimistic. The advent of the Massiah (peace be upon him) is looming to launch the war against all this havoc. Voices of wise men and women need to be louder now for a better life for every single soul in this world and the whole environment. If UN is to lead the world, its legislations and stances need to be reviewed. Freedom of ceed and respect of sanctities is a right for every one on bases of wise democratic principles.

Samantha Rinne said:

So what exactly is the problem?

Well, there's theories:

-On is to ignore that there is a problem and to be pro-gay marriages. But even if you are for gay marriages, this is still ignoring that something about this God doesn't like. Which means I'll skip to the meat of it:
- Awhile back, the Episcopal church voted to split over gay marriage. They became Anglican and Episcopalian. Then Methodists voted against, but wound up being forced to split anyway. Let's read Genesis, with of course those offensive words like 'man' and 'woman' changed to person.
"For this reason a person shall leave their father and mother and be united to their wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one. Therefore, what God has joined together let not man separate. " It's not relevant who is the husband and who is the wife (but from previous threads, you'll note that I do not believe in two parties working or two parties raising children, one cannot work in terms of the child, the other fails economically). What is relevant is the attempt to divide the church. God has married the church, united it, and people should not be voting to split.
-There's also the fact that this whole thing smacks of government intervention, specifically a secular system trying to impose Obama era rules on a public who would rather go to church to worship.
-Oh yeah and there's also the classic arguments that it's calling something sinful morally good, or a gateway drug to other odd behavior, or that it ignores the actual meaning of marriage (which is not for couples but for families, though I could contend this last one would be fine if gays could adopt more easily). But Ibthink these are secondary to the two real issues.

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If God has an issue with Gay people getting married, then he’s perfectly free to let us all know personally. I have yet to hear him object though.
If you have an issue with gay marriage, then don’t marry someone who is the same sex as you. Problem solved.

Baroodi said:

The tools that will demolish the modern civilization in my opinion
1) secularism and bowing of the Judism and church to anti-religion storms, Islam still stands fast against all odds to bring it down or to mutate it on false allegations of terrorism, atavistic and so on .., It is still pristine as revealed to Muhammed the prophet regarding religious guidance on worshipping and the Dos and the Don`ts.
2) weird sexuality
3) atheism
4) religious extremism

3 & 4 are the main plights of of our time (troubled world with no ethics and multi-faceted injustice with jungle laws). A massive destructive war is looming, and I hope I am wrong with this prophesy. Dostoevsky said: If there is no God, then every thing can be legalized. Bush invaded Iraq falsely to dismantle Saddam from his weapons of mass destruction. Trump who is opennly frank said he wants the oil.
The UN can not even codemn for once in history the Israelis for the atrocities they commit in Philistine, the Hindu government in India issue a strange law against Muslims causing unruly rest with strange silence from most countries, Minorities all over the world are oppressed .Very Heinous UN, only successful to twist the arms of poor countries on a gesture from the bully guys. Things under secular liberty are so miserable and pessimistic. The advent of the Massiah (peace be upon him) is looming to launch the war against all this havoc. Voices of wise men and women need to be louder now for a better life for every single soul in this world and the whole environment. If UN is to lead the world, its legislations and stances need to be reviewed. Freedom of ceed and respect of sanctities is a right for every one on bases of wise democratic principles.

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That is quite the nice choir sermon there, but what does it have to do with the OP?

Samantha Rinne said:

So what exactly is the problem?

Well, there's theories:

-On is to ignore that there is a problem and to be pro-gay marriages. But even if you are for gay marriages, this is still ignoring that something about this God doesn't like. Which means I'll skip to the meat of it:
- Awhile back, the Episcopal church voted to split over gay marriage. They became Anglican and Episcopalian. Then Methodists voted against, but wound up being forced to split anyway. Let's read Genesis, with of course those offensive words like 'man' and 'woman' changed to person.
"For this reason a person shall leave their father and mother and be united to their wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one. Therefore, what God has joined together let not man separate. " It's not relevant who is the husband and who is the wife (but from previous threads, you'll note that I do not believe in two parties working or two parties raising children, one cannot work in terms of the child, the other fails economically). What is relevant is the attempt to divide the church. God has married the church, united it, and people should not be voting to split.
-There's also the fact that this whole thing smacks of government intervention, specifically a secular system trying to impose Obama era rules on a public who would rather go to church to worship.
-Oh yeah and there's also the classic arguments that it's calling something sinful morally good, or a gateway drug to other odd behavior, or that it ignores the actual meaning of marriage (which is not for couples but for families, though I could contend this last one would be fine if gays could adopt more easily). But Ibthink these are secondary to the two real issues.

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You are trying to enforce religious dogma from your chosen religion on others who do not buy into it by having laws that affect those people. Do you believe we should have laws based upon Hinduism or Confucianism as well? I doubt it.

Why not stop obsessing about what other people are or are not doing, and focus on making your life rich your own way?

Thirza Fallen said:

The true meaning of marriage is one man and as many women as he could afford.

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Except in Tibet, where it was the other way around.

Samantha Rinne said:

So what exactly is the problem?

Well, there's theories:

-On is to ignore that there is a problem and to be pro-gay marriages. But even if you are for gay marriages, this is still ignoring that something about this God doesn't like. Which means I'll skip to the meat of it:
- Awhile back, the Episcopal church voted to split over gay marriage. They became Anglican and Episcopalian. Then Methodists voted against, but wound up being forced to split anyway. Let's read Genesis, with of course those offensive words like 'man' and 'woman' changed to person.
"For this reason a person shall leave their father and mother and be united to their wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one. Therefore, what God has joined together let not man separate. " It's not relevant who is the husband and who is the wife (but from previous threads, you'll note that I do not believe in two parties working or two parties raising children, one cannot work in terms of the child, the other fails economically). What is relevant is the attempt to divide the church. God has married the church, united it, and people should not be voting to split.
-There's also the fact that this whole thing smacks of government intervention, specifically a secular system trying to impose Obama era rules on a public who would rather go to church to worship.
-Oh yeah and there's also the classic arguments that it's calling something sinful morally good, or a gateway drug to other odd behavior, or that it ignores the actual meaning of marriage (which is not for couples but for families, though I could contend this last one would be fine if gays could adopt more easily). But Ibthink these are secondary to the two real issues.

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I don't care if gay people are married. Similarly, I don't care if people believe in God.

I allow them to make their own choices unless they directly impinge upon me.

You can call this 'denial' if you like, but you're the one tagging the only choice in a poll you disagree with in parenthesis. At some level you might want to consider the irony there.

Baroodi said:

The tools that will demolish the modern civilization in my opinion
1) secularism and bowing of the Judism and church to anti-religion storms, Islam still stands fast against all odds to bring it down or to mutate it on false allegations of terrorism, atavistic and so on .., It is still pristine as revealed to Muhammed the prophet regarding religious guidance on worshipping and the Dos and the Don`ts.
2) weird sexuality
3) atheism
4) religious extremism

3 & 4 are the main plights of of our time (troubled world with no ethics and multi-faceted injustice with jungle laws). A massive destructive war is looming, and I hope I am wrong with this prophesy. Dostoevsky said: If there is no God, then every thing can be legalized. Bush invaded Iraq falsely to dismantle Saddam from his weapons of mass destruction. Trump who is opennly frank said he wants the oil.
The UN can not even codemn for once in history the Israelis for the atrocities they commit in Philistine, the Hindu government in India issue a strange law against Muslims causing unruly rest with strange silence from most countries, Minorities all over the world are oppressed .Very Heinous UN, only successful to twist the arms of poor countries on a gesture from the bully guys. Things under secular liberty are so miserable and pessimistic. The advent of the Massiah (peace be upon him) is looming to launch the war against all this havoc. Voices of wise men and women need to be louder now for a better life for every single soul in this world and the whole environment. If UN is to lead the world, its legislations and stances need to be reviewed. Freedom of ceed and respect of sanctities is a right for every one on bases of wise democratic principles.

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Islam is so pristine yet split into two factions almost immediately. It usually takes longer for most other religions.

PureX said:

The debate that's going on within the church right now isn't really about gay marriage. That issue is just the spark of the moment. The real debate is about whether or not the church is going to dictate to the individuals within it what is right before God, or whether the individuals within the church are going to determine for themselves what is right before God. It's not a struggle about gay rights, it's a struggle about individual autonomy vs. church authority. And there is no 'right' or 'wrong' side of this particular debate. There are just people who come to different conclusions about church authority, vs. individual autonomy. And that's why the schism is occurring. And it's why the schism was inevitable, and why it probably should occur. It's a fundamental difference of opinion regarding one's relationship to their church, of such significance that it calls for two very different expressions of church organization.

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You would think that with over 500 sects of Christianity everyone could just find one they liked instead of making more new ones.

atheophobia
trecillion

Ya gotta love this forum.

sojourner said:

The Law was written in a different culture, by a different people, for a different religion. Their cultural mores were far different from ours. The text condemns an act, but not an orientation.

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The laws, as well as all the rest of it, was written by misogynistic old men pushing an agenda. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of these men were ashamed of and frightened by their own deep-seated homosexual feelings.

Baroodi said:

1) secularism

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Is that why life in secular nations is so much better then in non-secular countries?

and bowing of the Judism and church to anti-religion storms, Islam still stands fast against all odds to bring it down or to mutate it on false allegations of terrorism, atavistic and so on .., It is still pristine as revealed to Muhammed the prophet regarding religious guidance on worshipping and the Dos and the Don`ts.

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Is that why the various muslim denominations disagree so much on their religion, that they are willing to kill eachother over it?

Statistically the biggest threat to muslims, are other muslims.

2) weird sexuality

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"weird" in your subjective / religious opinion

[/quote]
3) atheism [/quote]

4) religious extremism

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Extremism of all kinds is indeed a problem and obstacle to any cooperative society that values freedom.
This is one of the reasons why middle eastern theocracies are such horrible places.

3 & 4 are the main plights of of our time

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I agree on 4, as it is the primary reason for many current conflicts and trampling of human rights.

How atheism is supposedly a societal problem, is something I don't see. Perhaps you can explain?

Dostoevsky said: If there is no God, then every thing can be legalized

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Dostoevsky, however that is, was wrong.

Bush invaded Iraq falsely to dismantle Saddam from his weapons of mass destruction.

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And he has said on record that God told him to do so.

Trump who is opennly frank said he wants the oil.

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Yes, I think Trump represents the ACTUAL threat to modern civilization, which is a right wiing / nationalistic populism that thrives on misinformation, fake news and plain lies.

The UN can not even codemn for once in history the Israelis for the atrocities they commit in Philistine

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Excuse me, but the UN has condemned Israel for their behaviour a ridiculous amount of times. The thing is that the US keeps vetoing any and every resolution against Israel. Oftenly from a mainly religious foundation, I might add.

, the Hindu government in India issue a strange law against Muslims causing unruly rest with strange silence from most countries

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Not aware of this.

, Minorities all over the world are oppressed

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Nothing new there. However, at least modern secular democracies (that you apparantly don't like) try to put things in place to protect them.

You see, ultimately... the point of a democracy is NOT to give the majority what they want, like many people tend to believe. In fact, the point of a democracy is to make sure that minorities are protected and have a platform to have their voice heared.

Things under secular liberty are so miserable and pessimistic

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How so?

The advent of the Massiah (peace be upon him) is looming to launch the war against all this havoc. Voices of wise men and women need to be louder now for a better life for every single soul in this world and the whole environment.

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And the way to do that, is through secular humanism.
Not be implementing your particular version of islam.

If UN is to lead the world

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That's not the point of the UN nore has it ever been.

Freedom of ceed and respect of sanctities is a right for every one on bases of wise democratic principles.

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How does secular humanism strip you from your freedom or rights concerning your prefered "sanctities"?

Samantha Rinne said:

Two consenting adults should be able to love each other.

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Yes, so where's the problem?

Samantha Rinne said:

Why do you need a marriage contract for that?

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You don't, but if two consenting adults love each other and wants a marriage contract, why deny them? And I wasn't talking about the church.

Samantha Rinne said:

Why do you need to tear apart churches for that?

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You don't, that's why you don't need to go a church to get a marriage contract.

Samantha Rinne said:

I'm a transfeminine genderfluid person who was born male. If I want to date women, men, transgender women, preop trans women, the idea of making a church take responsibility for my decision is stupid. It's not like most of these would involve wedlock, so yes, you are in denial.

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You're in denial if you think only a church can be give you a marriage contract.

Samantha Rinne said:

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves." I know for a fact that the person I'm interested in is bisexual, has left the church, and my being legally female would probably disqualify me under the gay marriage restrictions . I also know that true to my belief as to the reason for marriage being family, she doesn't want kids, and I'm not sure I do either. So rather than tell myself the church is wrong for not letting me get married, maybe I'm wrong and I shouldn't in the first place. Especially since she has a bf, and I'm just extra.

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A church is not wrong if they refuse to give you a marriage ceremony if you are the only one who wants to get married and the other does not. The choice should be between two consenting people.

Samantha Rinne said:

The person who thinks any of that above mess is something marriage can resolve is kidding themselves. In denial.

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But that doesn't have to be the only reasons for a marriage.

Samantha Rinne said:

The poll options being highly rigged remain. But you can multiple choice to make all the results messed up if you want.

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You're in denial of the truth if you rig the poll to suit you and the opinions of others. You're also in denial of yourself if you say that the church does not matter and yet show how important the church is to your life.

ecco said:

The laws, as well as all the rest of it, was written by misogynistic old men pushing an agenda. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of these men were ashamed of and frightened by their own deep-seated homosexual feelings.

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I think that during the time they were exiled in Babylon, they wanted to enforce laws that kept them separate from the other tribes around them, so they made up a bunch of laws. The homosexual thing is rebelling against Roman and Greek mores that said that a man could have sex with a male of lower stature than him, but not equal stature. Women were for babies and men and boys were for fun. The Hebrews made this ritually unclean, just like menstruation was. So the people freaking out about this need to learn the historical and cultural context of their chosen text.

Samantha Rinne said:

So what exactly is the problem?

Well, there's theories:

-On is to ignore that there is a problem and to be pro-gay marriages. But even if you are for gay marriages, this is still ignoring that something about this God doesn't like. Which means I'll skip to the meat of it:
- Awhile back, the Episcopal church voted to split over gay marriage. They became Anglican and Episcopalian. Then Methodists voted against, but wound up being forced to split anyway. Let's read Genesis, with of course those offensive words like 'man' and 'woman' changed to person.
"For this reason a person shall leave their father and mother and be united to their wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one. Therefore, what God has joined together let not man separate. " It's not relevant who is the husband and who is the wife (but from previous threads, you'll note that I do not believe in two parties working or two parties raising children, one cannot work in terms of the child, the other fails economically). What is relevant is the attempt to divide the church. God has married the church, united it, and people should not be voting to split.
-There's also the fact that this whole thing smacks of government intervention, specifically a secular system trying to impose Obama era rules on a public who would rather go to church to worship.
-Oh yeah and there's also the classic arguments that it's calling something sinful morally good, or a gateway drug to other odd behavior, or that it ignores the actual meaning of marriage (which is not for couples but for families, though I could contend this last one would be fine if gays could adopt more easily). But Ibthink these are secondary to the two real issues.

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This condition is just a human construct, term, it can be changed anyway human mind desire. Natural actions and conditions that procreation of human species require do not change unless surgery involved.

Samantha Rinne said:

On is to ignore that there is a problem and to be pro-gay marriages. But even if you are for gay marriages, this is still ignoring that something about this God doesn't like.

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He doesn't!? I don't remember that in the Bhagavad Gita. It's not in the Vedas or Puranas. Where did God say that he doesn't like it?

Ohhh! You mean your image and idea of God, and the scriptures that you'd like to impose on the rest of us 4 billion or so non-Abrahamics!

"For this reason a person shall leave their father and mother and be united to their wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one. Therefore, what God has joined together let not man separate.

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What's your point? That only talks about one type of marital union, admittedly the most common type. The type most likely to end up in divorce based simply on numbers. Omission of any other kind doesn't equal prohibition. So, that verse is a bad example.

Let's move on.

Baroodi said:

Dostoevsky said: If there is no God, then every thing can be legalized. Bush invaded Iraq falsely to dismantle Saddam from his weapons of mass destruction.

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Bush was a big believer in God. He lied to his Congress and the people and initiated an invasion of Iraq.

I don't know where you get your morals but your fellow Muslims engaged in the deliberate destruction and theft of cultural heritage sites.

I don't know where you get your morals but your fellow Muslims engaged in genocide of Christian Yazidis.

Baroodi said:

the Hindu government in India issue a strange law against Muslims

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Maybe the Hindus have seen what Muslims do to non-Muslims and want to limit their influence in India.

Baroodi said:

Minorities all over the world are oppressed

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Like the minority Christians oppressed in Islamic countries.

Baroodi said:

Things under secular liberty are so miserable and pessimistic.

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Who's pessimistic? Not me? The only thing that makes me pessimistic is when I think of the influence of religions on rational thought.

Baroodi said:

The advent of the Massiah (peace be upon him) is looming to launch the war against all this havoc.

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What you mean is that Muslims are going to kill more non-Muslims in a holy war.

Baroodi said:

Voices of wise men and women need to be louder now for a better life for every single soul in this world and the whole environment.

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Truly wise people recognize the vast amount of violence perpetrated In God's Name regardless of who the God is at the moment.

Truly wise people advocate against all religions.