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The Mormons are being sued for doing the right thing:

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I refer you to the way the Catholic church kept it in house and silent and merely shuffled the pedophile priests around, effectively giving them fresh meat every now then.
Ironic, innit?

Once again, me(a gay atheist who has been under assault by the RCC for my entire adult life) is trying to explain and defend RCC policies.

Doubtless, the real Catholics on RF have more important things to do.

Tom
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
My question is still, "Is this the best policy? Is making the bishops a law enforcement agency the best way to deal with such crimes?"

I'm not convinced it is.
Tom

Well, look what happens to church officials (of a different faith belief) chose a different path. You think what the Catholics did about it is a better way to deal with such crime?

I mean, this really is a 'true' dichotomy. Either one tells the authorities, or one doesn't. There really isn't another choice available there.

As well, in a few states, there is a 'mandated reporter' law, making it absolutely required for anybody...including church officials and clergy...to report child abuse. Not doing so is almost as big a crime as the abuse itself. This is true in the state in which this incident happened, Oregon.

Now I keep seeing on this forum that churches are not above the law; if the law says this thing, then whether the church doctrine agrees or not, then the church MUST obey the law. We just got raked over the coals for Prop 8. Now which is it, columbus? Should the law be obeyed no matter what?

Or should it be obeyed only when you approve?

The church has made it very clear that repentance and forgiveness is very possible...but it's a process. Part of that process includes facing what has been done and making reparations if possible, and facing the legal/mortal consequences of one's actions. Keeping something like that a secret is NOT being repentant. Asking one's church leaders to keep something like that a secret is just forcing them to participate in the evil action...without doing the sinnner any good at all.

There ARE times when nobody but the church leader and God need to know what is being repented of. Child abuse isn't one of those times.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
According to the article, it was the wife who launched the lawsuit. I find that the most disturbing detail of this story. The elders did the right thing and they should be proud of themselves, however the mother... her daughter was sexually abused by her own father in her own home and she sides with him???
I know. It is often said that the wives of sexual molesters are aware of their husband's crimes. I almost think that she should have been charged too. It is questionable if her children are safe at her home.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Prop 8 was a California proposition regarding marraige that the LDS supported, in 1908.
Let me be a little more clear.
Prop 8 was a California referendum attempting to put marriage inequality into the California State Constitution.
That was an attack, by your church, on me and my basic rights. Millions of other people as well.

I realize that many Mormons think that I should just forget about that and all the other attacks on my civil liberties LDS has committed. But I'm not going to any time soon.
Sorry if it makes you feel oppressed or something.

"recent' was in here, to me, in a thread within the last week. ;)
You poor Christian thing you!
Somebody said something you don't like on the internet?

May I take credit for it?
Tom
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
Let me be a little more clear.
Prop 8 was a California referendum attempting to put marriage inequality into the California State Constitution.
That was an attack, by your church, on me and my basic rights. Millions of other people as well.

I realize that many Mormons think that I should just forget about that and all the other attacks on my civil liberties LDS has committed. But I'm not going to any time soon.
Sorry if it makes you feel oppressed or something.


You poor Christian thing you!
Somebody said something you don't like on the internet?

May I take credit for it?
Tom

Be my guest.

However, I'm not going to enter into that discussion again.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
That's the opposite of what I'm saying.
It may be the opposite of what you meant, but it is not the opposite of what you said.

Making sure it stays secret is likely to result in more abuse.
That's what you're advocating. Making sure that perps don't tell anybody. Not even a bishop.
Tom
And you are basically advocating the bishop being an accomplice in something that they can do noting about.
Again, just look at the example of the Catholic Church.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Ironic, innit?

Once again, me(a gay atheist who has been under assault by the RCC for my entire adult life) is trying to explain and defend RCC policies.

Doubtless, the real Catholics on RF have more important things to do.

Tom
Rather difficult to take you seriously if you are defending the way the Catholic Church actively hid the crimes from everyone, shuffled the criminals around, flat out lied in a sad attempt at covering up THEIR complicity...

Hundreds of preists molesting thousands of children for hundreds of years all of which being covered up and hidden from not only the authorities, but the families as well... ...and you defend that?
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Mormons face $9.5 million lawsuit after reporting an abusive father

The wife of a man that sexually molested his daughter, and yes he has been found guilty and is in prison so no need of the term "allegedly". is suing the church for $9.5 million. She lists herself and four of their five children (the daughter that was molested is not listed) as plaintiffs. He went to a panel of elders of his church and confessed, hoping for forgiveness and absolution. It did not quite work out that way.

The elders may well have had the authority to forgive this man in the eyes of the church, but the woman is a moron if she thinks they had any authority to forgive him in the eyes of the law. Part of confession is taking responsibility for your actions. And if the wife was aware and took no action to report it to the police, she should be held responsible as well.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Mormons face $9.5 million lawsuit after reporting an abusive father

The wife of a man that sexually molested his daughter, and yes he has been found guilty and is in prison so no need of the term "allegedly". is suing the church for $9.5 million. She lists herself and four of their five children (the daughter that was molested is not listed) as plaintiffs. He went to a panel of elders of his church and confessed, hoping for forgiveness and absolution. It did not quite work out that way.

Money makes people do strange things. This family's children will be dragged into courtrooms and "depositions" for years, scarring them even more. It's strange world where an organization can be sued for hiding the truth and be sued for exposing the same truth.
There will be a settlement in the end...money is the actual goal here.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Money makes people do strange things. This family's children will be dragged into courtrooms and "depositions" for years, scarring them even more. It's strange world where an organization can be sued for hiding the truth and be sued for exposing the same truth.
There will be a settlement in the end...money is the actual goal here.
i hope not. Sometimes it is better to fight rather than to settle since that can lead to further lawsuits.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
i hope not. Sometimes it is better to fight rather than to settle since that can lead to further lawsuits.

I would rather that there be no suit in this instance. This will serve to produce even less transparency in religious organizations. I also question that a court will accept that breach of an alleged promise (not a contract) is legally binding. Even if the promise was made (good luck proving that in court), it was done within the framework of religious beliefs.....
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
The elders may well have had the authority to forgive this man in the eyes of the church, but the woman is a moron if she thinks they had any authority to forgive him in the eyes of the law. Part of confession is taking responsibility for your actions. And if the wife was aware and took no action to report it to the police, she should be held responsible as well.

Y'know, we don't really HAVE a confessional, per se. the vast majority of 'sins' that we commit are personal, private, and taken to God personally. Our paths to forgiveness are also very personal, usually. The most serious of sins...like adultery or murder or child abuse or something else that does great harm to someone else? Yeah, we are supposed to go to a church leader. Not to get forgiveness, but to get advice and help on the path TO forgiveness.


The elders don't have the authority to forgive him 'in the eyes of the church,' either. Forgiveness is entirely God's province. What the 'elders' can do is help the sinner through the repentance process, and provide support. Repentance isn't instant, not with us. It IS a process, which ends with the sinner better, learning more, and not sinning any more, at least in that area. In all matters, part of repentance is, when possible, making restitution, taking responsibility and...taking the consequences. That means that if you have stolen something from a store, you have to, among other things, tell the store, make restitution, and if the store prosecutes, well....that's too bad. You do the time/pay the fine/whatever. You ALSO work through your own learning process. The point is to come out the other side better than you went into it. Repent, and GOD isn't going to give you grief....but the law might.

In something this serious, there is more damage done than the abuser can fix. It's possible to repent, I believe, but 'paying for it' in terms of jail time and inability to do it again to someone else? An incredibly important part of the process. Being forgiven in God's eyes, and in one's own so that one can feel guiltless again is wonderful, but you can't DO that if you have left unpaid for damage behind you, can you?

.....and confessing to a church leader in the hope that one can dodge the consequences and still be forgiven?

That's pretty darned selfish. IMO, of course.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
My question is still, "Is this the best policy? Is making the bishops a law enforcement agency the best way to deal with such crimes?"

I'm not convinced it is.
Tom
Is your issue with mandatory reporting in general, or just mandatory reporting for religious ministers?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Is your issue with mandatory reporting in general, or just mandatory reporting for religious ministers?
Just ministers, really.

And I recognize a range of problems even in that limited scope.
Who qualifies as a minister?
What qualifies as a confidential admission?
What can a minister tell the authorities? Can s/he report that Mary is being abused, without saying it was Joe who confessed the information?
How much information qualifies as "reportable". If Joe just talks about a girl, and the minister suspects she underage but Joe never says so, is that reportable?

I don't see this as a simple issue at all.
Tom
 
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BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Mormons face $9.5 million lawsuit after reporting an abusive father

The wife of a man that sexually molested his daughter, and yes he has been found guilty and is in prison so no need of the term "allegedly". is suing the church for $9.5 million. She lists herself and four of their five children (the daughter that was molested is not listed) as plaintiffs. He went to a panel of elders of his church and confessed, hoping for forgiveness and absolution. It did not quite work out that way.

Thank God the molester wasn't an atheist, where there would be no panel to report to, to get word out to authorities and family, eh?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Thank God the molester wasn't an atheist, where there would be no panel to report to, to get word out to authorities and family, eh?
What makes you think hat atheists cannot have morals? Now atheists are not perfect, but they tend to have better morals than Christians. But your probably do not understand why.

By the way, if they "got word to the family" then there could be a legitimate lawsuit against the panel. They did not do that. They alerted the authorities. I am betting that the family knew already.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Just ministers, really.
Why just ministers? You don't have a problem with similar issues that arise with having, say, social workers and psychologists as mandatory reporters (i.e. people may hide reportable offenses, causing them not to be treated for the underlying condition)?


And I recognize a range of problems even in that limited scope.
Who qualifies as a minister?
What qualifies as a confidential admission?
That's one of the big problems with special legal treatment for religions: it puts the state in the position of having to rule on what is and isn't a "valid" religion, and on what is and isn't a "proper" expression of that religion.

A few years back, I remember a court case involving our (taxpayer-funded, government-run) Catholic schools: a student and her family took her school board to court after she tried to buy a prom ticket for her girlfriend and was refused. The court sided with the student.

The law here requires all government schools to abide by the Ontario Human Rights Code, with an exception for Catholic schools, but only on matters where Catholic doctrine conflicts with the Code. The judge ruled that two lesbian teens going to prom together didn't violate Catholic doctrine.

What can a minister tell the authorities? Can s/he report that Mary is being abused, without saying it was Joe who confessed the information?
How much information qualifies as "reportable". If Joe just talks about a girl, and the minister suspects she underage but Joe never says so, is that reportable?
I assume that these sorts of parameters are spelled out clearly enough to be workable. If not, they could really be revised... and isn't really an issue that's specific to religious ministers.
 
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