Have them make for me a tabernacle...

ideogenous_mover said:

Seeing as you put this in the debate section, I suppose I have to contest it... or not really, I actually don't really care how people worship. My northerly european ancestors were often described by the romans as worshiping outdoors, I think. Outdoor stone formations, giant trees, and probably certain lakes or hills were their 'church like areas.'

I personally feel far, far more in touch with spirituality when in nature, letting my senses interact with special moments out there. I hiked out through the middle of a marsh at dawn last spring, everything was covered in a perfect coat of crystalline frost. You could hear a pin drop. Suddenly I beheld the sun, it was a mesmerizing dull-red orange ball, casting a perfect glowing red presence upon all the silent frost, from the cattails to the willows. The world became a preacher with no words, as the words of a humans preacher could only be profane in such a moment

Other times I've been mesmerized by singing packs of wolves, or the aurora borealis, or waterfalls. Simple sunsets and sunrises coming in and out of lakes. Encounters with wild animals, meteor showers, walks beneath magical moons. In the moments with those things, is when my world feels larger, and the closest to a spiritual presence. I never got that feeling in a building of any kind. Our culture is influenced in modern times by religions that do their thing in buildings, but that doesn't have to really be the rule does it

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halbhh said:

I think perhaps 30% to maybe as much as 60% can get into a good state of being just washing dishes, even blissful, even returning to themselves. Getting closer to God.

For millions, tens of millions in just the U.S., if a church feels it is only form/rituals without transcendence, they can do better. But fortunately, many churches today have a good deal of transcendence going on. They need merely read aloud some psalms and some gospel, to get that.



We are to love God with all of our hearts, and all of our minds, and all of our souls, and all of our strength, and if one does, then the amazing happens, on and on.

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Audie said:

How do you account for amazing results like
the vice of belief in biblical inerrancy, and literalism?

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dybmh said:

Ok, thank you. Now I understand why you said you don't buy into it. Also, I wasn't aware of this 1970s fad, so I think I misspoke a tiny bit by accidentally using the same jargon.

Here's what I think, going back to original question you posed in the OP: ( apologies for the multi-paragraph essay, but, the question "why kids don't want a synagogue in America is a rather large subject. )

Young people don't have a compelling reason to believe in God in the typical Judeo-Christian manner. This being the masculine, aloof, authoritarian, God. However they are tuned in to connection, justice, and truth. To me this is a form of religious/spiritual belief, but it's more akin to recognizing the divine presence ( Shechinah ). In my local area ( urban PNW ), young people are involved in Churches. Young people seem to like it. Synagogue? Not so much. But social action is huge around here among Jewish teens. Kids are involved, want to take charge, and conquer the world's problems. I like to perceive this as a spiritual pursuit because it recognizes that each person's choices have impact that is not easily measured or defined. It's faith. Faith that choices matter, that words matter, that feelings matter.

Being a member of a congregation can be compelling for young people, if it encourages social action, if it highlights an interconnected world, and if it enhances the goodwill and good feelings towards all people. Young people like those things. And they want to participate in those things. But they don't need a congregation to do it, they have friend groups. And they don't need to worship God or be devoted to God in order to accomplish those goals. The divine presence is already close, and I think they can feel that in their friendships, their feeling of interconnection, and their desire for justice.

Beyond this, that a congregation is unneeded, many Jewish congregations seem to be disconnected from the "spirit" of the ritual. And I think young people can see this like a bright blinking neon sign. To me, this authenticity-radar is a good sign. I think it's intuitive, and I define that as spiritual. If the ritual is hollow, why would a young person want to participate. Is it a camp-fire sing along? Yes it feels good to sing traditional melodies in an ancient language among a family and friends. And yes it feels good to be "in the know" and to be knowledgeable about the customs traditions and practices, but all of that is window dressing for young people. It makes the ritual false and foolish. If it's not real, why do it? That's a simple question which I think deserves a compelling answer if young people are expected to participate. In my experience most of the leaders and congregants in American Jewish synagogues aren't able to answer this question in a way that is an invitation for young people to participate.

Perhaps ask yourself, how would the clergy or your fellow congregants answer the question: Why do we say Kaddish? And then ask yourself if the answer is an invitation for a young person to participate or is it discouraging. No matter how I try to answer that question myself, it's not something I would expect to be inviting to a young person in modern America. However, when they see me pouring over texts, or having a heady conversation with another adult about some deep religious/spiritual subject... they want to participate. Why? because it's real. It's role modeling. They see that it's real for me, and my friends, and that is what's compelling. It has to be real.

If a young person comes into a synagogue and sees all the trappings of the ritual but can tell instinctively that the people participating don't actually believe in what they are doing, I say that this is a good thing. It's good for young people to be able to intuit authenticity in the manner that a ritual is executed. And to me it is a sign of spiritual ( possibly not religious ) potential. Spiritual, but not religious? Yes, I'm sorry for using those words again. But hopefully now I've been more clear about what I meant by that originally.

So there's two major factors at play, IMO. 1) Young people don't need an Authoritarian Aloof God, they already acknowledge and interact with the Divine Presence which is close and doesn't require worship or devotion. And this renders communal activities optional or unneeded. 2) If they are part of a congregation, their religious education needs to be from teachers who really believe in God, and really believe in the efficacy of the ritual or else it becomes hollow, and false, and that discourages participation. Both of these, to me, are signs that a young person has spiritual/religious potential, but they don't require a congregation to actualize it.

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Jayhawker Soule said:

The dvar is lovely but, in my opinion, far from compelling.

Rather than suggesting that these "many many young [and not so young] people" are wrong and misguided, perhaps our houses of worship should seek ways to become more relevant.

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Gerry said:

Ouch.
You consider the Bible a religious text?
How scary.

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URAVIP2ME said:

And, I also find Psalms 122:8-9 does say ' Let us go into the house of the LORD (Tetragrammaton)'
Sad to say there are false clergy (dressed in sheep's clothing ) who seat them selves in the 'temple' (tabernacle/dwelling) of God (houses of worship) as if they are God when in reality they are anti-God.
- 2 Thessalonians 2:4

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IndigoChild5559 said:

You talk about 'hollow ritual." The ritual is the same as it has always been. People have not found it hollow. It is filled (or not) by the individual. It is not the ritual that is hollow, the question is what do you bring with you to the prayers.

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dybmh said:

Agreed. And well said. It took me a lot more words to say the same thing...

Further, in my experience it seems like Reform and Conservative Judaism does not appeal to religious/spiritual people. People join these congregations for life cycle events and community, not out of devotion to God. This includes the clergy and cantors. I have an old friend from HighSchool, he's a Reform Rabbi. And, he is not religious at all. I don't know if he even believes in God. And he does not role model ethical behavior as I would expect from someone who leads a Jewish community. He's a friend, but I don't appreciate the example he puts out there of what it means to be Jewish...

Also, I attended my nephews BarMitzvahs at a beautiful Moorish Synagogue in Cincinnati ( Plum St. ) and the ritual was ... minimalist. Hollow? I don't know. But my wife and I looked at each other few times during the service a bit shocked at what was in the Siddur. However, I was happy to see the dalet emphasized at the end of the Shema. At least that bit of spiritual content had not been removed.

But, I want to say this: I honestly don't want to debate with you on whether or not the Reform and Conservative movement perform a hollow ritual, because I agree with you. The people make it special.

I tried to make this clear by bringing up Kaddish. Maybe another example would be useful?

If you don't mind me asking, which Siddur does your congregation use?

Also, are you noticing a lack of participation by young people in your congregation? I do. But I don't see it as a problem. I think that's where we disagree.

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IndigoChild5559 said:

God doesn't need our worship. He doesn't need anything. Worship is something we offer because when we encounter God, we spontaneously offer it. It has nothing to do with whether God is close and loving or remote and mysterious -- don't get sidetracked by that (because oddly, God encompasses both). People who don't worship God are those who have never encountered him. They think that God is some kind of Santa in the sky. It's an immature spirituality that doesn't acknowledge the unimaginable greatness of God.

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dybmh said:

I'm definitely not being side tracked by it... I promise..

Regarding "People who don't worship God are those who have never encountered him." I think that's a bold statement to claim what is happening internally in other people. That's not something that I agree with.

Tzedakah is a form of worship, isn't it? Potentially the highest form? Halachically, I don't think it requires any acknowledgment of God.

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IndigoChild5559 said:

That's a whole other topic. And the fact that such people exist should not stop us from going to a house of worship.

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URAVIP2ME said:

Meeting together should prove to be 'survival classes'

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IndigoChild5559 said:

Scary? How so?

More to the point, I consider the Tanakh (What Christians mistakenly call the "Old" Testament) to be the religious text of my people.

In the Torah, God prescribes a religion for Israel. There are 613 laws to keep. Many of them have to do with ceremonial observances in the Tablernacle/Temple. Some of them have to do with what can be eaten and what cannot be eaten. Some of them have to do with what is sexually forbidden. Some have to do with sacred days to be observed. Some have to do with Tzedakah, tithing and giving back to the poor what God has entrusted to you on their behalf. Some have to do with laws pertaining only to the priests, the descendants of Aaron. The point is, an entire religious structure is laid out that encompasses sacred times, sacred places, sacred people, sacred rites, etc. That's religion, my friend. Religion ordained by God. So obviously religion is not necessarily a bad thing.

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Gerry said:

Thank you for your thoughtful response.
I consider the Tanakh as being the word of God. I, also refer to it as the Old Testament. That comes from many years of religion. But I’m working hard to get rid of all the falsities of my religion experience. I do find interesting and helpful information in the, ummm, “New Testament”, but I prefer the prophets and the the first 5 books (is that what you call the Torah?).
I have a question for you.
I was reading something this morning and the writer quoted a single verse from Jeremiah. So, I went and read the whole chapter, and the one before it.
Not only was I absolutely amazed by this beautiful bit of scripture which impacted me immensely, but I caught a section which speaks to our discussion. Jeremiah 31:31-34
"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.
What does this part say to you?

I am thinking it’s my aversion to religion that makes me question your idea, which comes from being around so many lost “christians” for so long. If I could find a group of people interested in discussing and studying the Bible/Tanakh, I would gladly take the rituals, etc., but it has not been the case. I doubt that I could find a Christian who understands what is being said above in Jeremiah, and most all are not interested. They focus almost exclusively on the New Testament, especially the writings of Paul.

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IndigoChild5559 said:

I run into so many many young people who feel no need to attend a house of worship. God is everywhere, they tell me. They don't need to go to a church to be with him. (At least that is one of a great many reasons they give for not attending.)

I remember my Rabbi replying to this by quoting some sage or other, "Yes, God is everywhere, and is everywhere forgotten."

Human beings have a problem with sameness. After a while,we begin to tune it out, to take it for granted. It stops affecting us. It is true that God is everywhere. But we are unable to sustain that sense of teh sacredness of his presence everywhere. Who really thinks of God when they are changing the baby's diaper or working on their car or pour over the books an hour after the office has closed? A Zen master perhaps, after years of cultivation. But certainly not the average Joe.

Sometimes Joe will have moments where the sense of the sacred will come crashing through, but he can never control that.

No, for Joe Sixpack to experience a sense of the sacred on anything like a regular basis, he has to psychologically set a portion of time or space or whatever apart for God, and designate it as sacred by means of treating it differently.

God understands this psychology. Indeed, God allowed it to evolve in us and said, It is good. And so of course God himself works with it. Oh of course, there's nothing wrong with becoming the sort of zen master than can experience the sacred in washing dishes. I'm simply saying that God in his wisdom gave instructions for the other 99%.

And so the Torah gives commands for setting apart from the profane, for making of sacred time, sacred places, sacred objects, even sacred people.

Getting back to my Rabbi's remark, "God is everyone, and is everywhere forgotten..." God's answer is, "And let them make Me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them." Exodus 25:8 Obviously God already dwelt among us. It doesn't mean that he wasn't already there. It means that we would EXPERIENCE him as being there in a way that we otherwise would not.

My dear friends, it makes a difference to go to a house of God, and worship him there, with a faith community. It just does. It is our psychology. It is how our brains work. You can deny it. You can say that God doesn't need you there (and you would be right). But YOU need it. It is just as important for you to have a Sanctuary to worship God as it was for the ancient Israelites. You are not so different as you let yourself believe.

I rejoiced when they said unto me: 'Let us go unto the house of the LORD. Psalm 122:1

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Gerry said:

Thank you for your thoughtful response.
I consider the Tanakh as being the word of God. I, also refer to it as the Old Testament. That comes from many years of religion. But I’m working hard to get rid of all the falsities of my religion experience. I do find interesting and helpful information in the, ummm, “New Testament”, but I prefer the prophets and the the first 5 books (is that what you call the Torah?).
I have a question for you.
I was reading something this morning and the writer quoted a single verse from Jeremiah. So, I went and read the whole chapter, and the one before it.
Not only was I absolutely amazed by this beautiful bit of scripture which impacted me immensely, but I caught a section which speaks to our discussion. Jeremiah 31:31-34
"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.
What does this part say to you?

I am thinking it’s my aversion to religion that makes me question your idea, which comes from being around so many lost “christians” for so long. If I could find a group of people interested in discussing and studying the Bible/Tanakh, I would gladly take the rituals, etc., but it has not been the case. I doubt that I could find a Christian who understands what is being said above in Jeremiah, and most all are not interested. They focus almost exclusively on the New Testament, especially the writings of Paul.

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Gerry said:

Thank you for your thoughtful response.
I consider the Tanakh as being the word of God. I, also refer to it as the Old Testament. That comes from many years of religion. But I’m working hard to get rid of all the falsities of my religion experience. I do find interesting and helpful information in the, ummm, “New Testament”, but I prefer the prophets and the the first 5 books (is that what you call the Torah?).
I have a question for you.
I was reading something this morning and the writer quoted a single verse from Jeremiah. So, I went and read the whole chapter, and the one before it.
Not only was I absolutely amazed by this beautiful bit of scripture which impacted me immensely, but I caught a section which speaks to our discussion. Jeremiah 31:31-34
"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.
What does this part say to you?

I am thinking it’s my aversion to religion that makes me question your idea, which comes from being around so many lost “christians” for so long. If I could find a group of people interested in discussing and studying the Bible/Tanakh, I would gladly take the rituals, etc., but it has not been the case. I doubt that I could find a Christian who understands what is being said above in Jeremiah, and most all are not interested. They focus almost exclusively on the New Testament, especially the writings of Paul.

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IndigoChild5559 said:

What a lovely reply!

Yes, the passage of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is indeed soothing to the heart, full of hope. It speaks of a time where some of the troubles of our own day will be past, specifically our struggles with sin and doubts about God.

It says that the Law will be written on our hearts, meaning that no one will need to teach us right from wrong, and that we will have the needed desire to obey it so that we won't sin.

It also says that no one will need to teach us about God -- that EVERYONE will know God. And that also means that it is more than just believing in God, but it means KNOWING God, experiencing him on a personal level. So, no atheists, no agnostics, not even occasional doubts.

When will this be? Obviously it is a prophecy of the future. Like many Jews, I believe it is the world to come. Other Jews believe it is during the messianic era.

I definitely disagree with Christians that it is post-Jesus. It is simply not true today.


I am surprised and saddened that you haven't been able to find a church that studies the Bible deeply and would appreciate the Jeremiah passage. I know they exist -- it must just be your area which is lacking.

You might try a synagogue in your area, as a righteous Gentile. A Reform Temple in particular would be very open to you attending. Most have Torah studies on Saturday morning before the Shabbat service starts. Like any faith community, there are going to be those Jews who study and those who don't, those Jews who appreciate Torah, and those who don't, those who are spiritual and observant, and those who aren't. Like anything, you have to take the orange, suck out the juice, and spit out the pits, as it's written.

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IndigoChild5559 said:

What a lovely reply!

Yes, the passage of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is indeed soothing to the heart, full of hope. It speaks of a time where some of the troubles of our own day will be past, specifically our struggles with sin and doubts about God.

It says that the Law will be written on our hearts, meaning that no one will need to teach us right from wrong, and that we will have the needed desire to obey it so that we won't sin.

It also says that no one will need to teach us about God -- that EVERYONE will know God. And that also means that it is more than just believing in God, but it means KNOWING God, experiencing him on a personal level. So, no atheists, no agnostics, not even occasional doubts.

When will this be? Obviously it is a prophecy of the future. Like many Jews, I believe it is the world to come. Other Jews believe it is during the messianic era.

I definitely disagree with Christians that it is post-Jesus. It is simply not true today.


I am surprised and saddened that you haven't been able to find a church that studies the Bible deeply and would appreciate the Jeremiah passage. I know they exist -- it must just be your area which is lacking.

You might try a synagogue in your area, as a righteous Gentile. A Reform Temple in particular would be very open to you attending. Most have Torah studies on Saturday morning before the Shabbat service starts. Like any faith community, there are going to be those Jews who study and those who don't, those Jews who appreciate Torah, and those who don't, those who are spiritual and observant, and those who aren't. Like anything, you have to take the orange, suck out the juice, and spit out the pits, as it's written.

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Audie said:

I kind of feel sorry for those who find "god" in nature,as
to me, they are interposing themselves, their own fictional
construct between themselves and the nature they are trying to
enjoy. I guess they still see it, but through a semi transparent mirror.

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Unveiled Artist said:

I saw it like this when I went to church: Mathew 18: 19-21

…19 Again, I tell you truly that if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.” 21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?”…

If more than one person doesn't come together, it would make sense jesus wouldn't be present given what's taught about the love of god is not only for oneself but specifically for each other 1 Corinthians 8:12

…11 So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12 By sinning against your brothers in this way and wounding their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to stumble.…

So, I wonder if people actually have christ in their heart or faith in christ until they come together in his name thereby being in his "real presence" ideally by communion.

But, well, not everyone can get to a church. Even two people would do but then... that's my interpretation of it.

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