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God's Israel in the new testament who is it *Romans 9:6-8
- Thread starter 3rdAngel
- Start date
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Hi all
This thread is started, because some seem to be confused mixing up the physical nation of ISRAEL in the old covenant scriptures with God's true ISRAEL in the new covenant.
In this thread we are asking the questions...
1. What is the origin of the name of Israel and what does it mean?
2. Who are those identified as God's Israel in the new covenant?
3. Are gentiles grafted in to God's Israel?
4. What about the nation of Israel?
5. What about the Sabbath and Israel?
I will provide what I have discovered from a prayerful study of God's Word below for your consideration below and look forward to hearing your view (scripture only please).
May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.
Well it's evidence that you haven't a clue or idea about Israel.
After the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. About 200 years after, 10 tribes of Israel broke off from Israel and went over the caucus mountains and settled in what is now called the European countries.
Which leaves only 2 tribes left in Israel.
The tribe of Israel and the tribe of Judah.
Notice in the book of James 1:1---"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting"
Note that James speaking of the 12 tribes of Israel.. this being before the 10 tribes of Israel broke off from Israel. So 10 tribes of the 12 tribes. Broke away from Israel and are now scattered abroad in the world.
Which leaves only 2 tribes in Israel.
Tribe of Israel and the tribe Judah.
Now the question is. Where do you suppose those 10 tribes are to be found in the world?
In the Bible from Genesis to Revelation tells where those 10 tribes are to be found in the world.
As for me. I'm of the tribe of Asher of Israel.
Which is found in the book of Revelation 7.
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3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Well I would say that the scriptures provided in the in the linked posts provided below, proves you wrong. If you disagree please respond to the posts and the scriptures provided that prove your claims are false ones.
Linked below for ease of access..
1. What is the origin of the name of Israel and what does it mean?
2. Who are those identified as God's Israel in the new covenant?
3. Are gentiles grafted in to God's Israel?
4. What about the nation of Israel?
5. What about the Sabbath and Israel?
Hmmm What ??
Where is that found in the bible?You do know that Israel in the old testament was a nation made up of the tribes of Jacobs sons right? It was a name given by God to Jacob GENESIS 32:24-28 and his sons made up the 12 tribes to the family of ISRAEL *GENESIS 35:22-26. There is a detailed scripture review here. 1. What is the origin of the name of Israel and what does it mean?
All James is saying is that the 12 tribes that make up ISRAEL are scattered everywhere. This is also made clear in other scriptures *Acts 15:21, "For Moses of old time has in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day".
Sorry this is make believe and is not biblical. The 12 tribes make up ISRAEL. Sometimes some tribes tried to separate themselves for the rest of the tribes that made up ISRAEL (e.g. Judah) but this does not no longer make them a part of ISRAEL just as the name of ISRAEL was given to Jacob and his 12 sons representing the 12 tribes are no longer his 12 sons. Some have lost their inheritance though because of sin (Idolatry).
Just as the scriptures say "Sacattered" *James 1:1
According to God's Word (not mine) God's ISRAEL in the new covenant are all those who "BELIEVE AND FOLLOW" God's Word. If we are not a part of God's ISRAEL than we have no part in the new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12. Gentiles are now grafted it *Romans 11:13-27.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Well I would say that the scriptures provided in the in the linked posts provided below, proves you wrong. If you disagree please respond to the posts and the scriptures provided that prove your claims are false ones.
Linked below for ease of access..
1. What is the origin of the name of Israel and what does it mean?
2. Who are those identified as God's Israel in the new covenant?
3. Are gentiles grafted in to God's Israel?
4. What about the nation of Israel?
5. What about the Sabbath and Israel?
Hmmm What ??
You do know that Israel in the old testament was a nation made up of the tribes of Jacobs sons right? It was a name given by God to Jacob GENESIS 32:24-28 and his sons made up the 12 tribes to the family of ISRAEL *GENESIS 35:22-26. There is a detailed scripture review here. 1. What is the origin of the name of Israel and what does it mean?
All James is saying is that the 12 tribes that make up ISRAEL are scattered everywhere. This is also made clear in other scriptures *Acts 15:21, "For Moses of old time has in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day".
Sorry this is make believe and is not biblical. The 12 tribes make up ISRAEL. Sometimes some tribes tried to separate themselves for the rest of the tribes that made up ISRAEL (e.g. Judah) but this does not no longer make them a part of ISRAEL just as the name of ISRAEL was given to Jacob and his 12 sons representing the 12 tribes are no longer his 12 sons. Some have lost their inheritance though because of sin (Idolatry).
Just as the scriptures say "Sacattered" *James 1:1
According to God's Word (not mine) God's ISRAEL in the new covenant are all those who "BELIEVE AND FOLLOW" God's Word. If we are not a part of God's ISRAEL than we have no part in the new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12. Gentiles are now grafted it *Romans 11:13-27.
Well it's evidence. As there are things in the Bible which are not written down that the physical eye can not see..all because it takes spiritual discernment to understand what the spirit of God is saying in the Bible/scriptures.
As I gave you James 1:1. Now can you understand what the Spirit of God is saying in James 1:1
Because it will take Spiritual discernment to understand James 1:1---"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting"
As well as Romans 9:6---"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"
As disciple Paul written.
1 Corinthians 2:14---"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"
It's plain and simple that you have no spiritual discernment of understanding about spiritual things.
As disciple Paul written above..
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Your post here does not address the post and the scriptures you are quoting from that show why I believe you are in error. It simply ignors the scriptures provided and shows that your name calling and claims are not biblical or do they show spiritual discernment as God's Spirit works through the Word of God not outside of it.
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Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
By all means do show as to where what you call name calling where is that.
You have nothing all because I did not any of the such things as you claim.
Further more you have a clue or idea what spiritual discernment means and how it works.
As I ask you many times how Jesus Christ himself foretold in Mark 13
What the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is
And when it will happen
And who are the ones that can commit it.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Take a read of your post # 24. Your trying to argue that if I do not believe the same as you do than I do not know God. I just see this as a distraction on your behalf though as an excuse not to address the scriptures shared with you that show why you are in error. As posted earlier, God's Spirit works through the Word not outside of it.
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74x12
Well-Known Member
Yet the Word of God is more than just the scriptures. Because Jesus defined it as "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God" rather than "everything that is just written". So, the Word of God is what God speaks and by inspiration of the holy Spirit men wrote the scriptures. But God has a lot more to say.
Who is Israel? It begins and ends with Jesus Christ. He is the Alpha and Omega. Every Word is comprised of letters and Jesus is all the Word of God.
He is the head of the body. Not the old Israel who died in Egypt and they took his body and buried it in the promised land. But Jesus rose from the dead after 3 days showing He is the eternal Israel. The temporal comes first and then the eternal.
Jesus is the true Israel the Son of God. "Out of Egypt I have called my Son" ... yes but like I said; Jacob left Israel in a coffin; but Jesus alive. The fact is that which is temporal will not be counted. Jacob is not head of Israel because he will be resurrected into the body of Christ. Jesus is forever the head of the body.
If anyone wants to be "Israel" they must be born again whether they're Jew or gentile it makes no difference. They must become part of the body of Jesus Christ. Then they will be "Israel".
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Besides Jacob, Israel is the tribal People descended from the Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel, and those have become members of that tribal People via a halakhic (Jewish law) conversion. Israel has nothing to do with Jesus or the Church.
74x12
Well-Known Member
You believe there will be a resurrection of the just?
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Yes. I also believe that the truly wicked will be annihilated.You believe there will be a resurrection of the just?
74x12
Well-Known Member
Then you believe in a temporal and eternal Israel also. Jerusalem in Hebrew is plural by the way. It's always been a duality. The earthly city and the city that God Himself will make. (Isaiah 65:18)
So then, the eternal Israel has a head just like the earthly Israel has a head: Jacob.
The eternal Israel's head is Jesus the "firstborn from the dead".
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: (John 11:25)
No wonder God promised Abraham that his seed would be like the sand on the seashore (the earthly) and like the stars of heaven (heavenly).
That which comes first is temporal and the eternal comes afterwards.
74x12
Well-Known Member
The stone the builders rejected is become headstone of the corner. That is the chief cornerstone of a new foundation. In other words, Jesus is the Head of the eternal Israel. He is the author of immortality.
Psalm 118:21-23
21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. (Yshua)
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
Revelation 21:5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Psalm 118:21-23
21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. (Yshua)
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
Revelation 21:5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Yes, Israel is temporal, and will exist into the world to come. I don't know about Jerusalem being plural. The world to come is not spiritual. We will be resurrected -- have bodies. I am also not sure if the world to come is forever. I'll leave that to Hashem.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
I believe God's true ISRAEL according to the scriptures are not those according to the flesh (the nation of Israel in name only) in the new covenant and are not those by name only but all those in Christ who believe and follow God's Word. Those of the FLESH (sinful human nature) are not Abrahams seed but those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God in Christ are God's ISRAEL according to the scriptures...
ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.
God's ISRAEL are all those in CHRIST that have been given a NEW HEART according to the NEW COVENANT promise...
ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
In the NEW COVENANT all those in Christ are are God's ISRAEL...
COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.
ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.
The New Covenant is for God's Israel...
EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A NEW HEART WILL I GIVE YOU, AND A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART OUT OF YOUR FLESH, AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. [27], AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM.
and again...
JEREMIAH 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Paul proclaims it here...
HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
The NEW COVENANT is for GOD'S ISRAEL which represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD.
I believe if the scriptueres teach if we are not part of GOD'S ISRAEL defined in the scriptures as those who believe and follow God's Word (not physical ISRAEL according to the flesh), then we have no part in the NEW COVENANT promise (Jeremiah 31:31-36; Hebrews 8:10-12).
blessings
ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.
God's ISRAEL are all those in CHRIST that have been given a NEW HEART according to the NEW COVENANT promise...
ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
In the NEW COVENANT all those in Christ are are God's ISRAEL...
COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.
ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.
The New Covenant is for God's Israel...
EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A NEW HEART WILL I GIVE YOU, AND A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART OUT OF YOUR FLESH, AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. [27], AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM.
and again...
JEREMIAH 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Paul proclaims it here...
HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
The NEW COVENANT is for GOD'S ISRAEL which represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD.
I believe if the scriptueres teach if we are not part of GOD'S ISRAEL defined in the scriptures as those who believe and follow God's Word (not physical ISRAEL according to the flesh), then we have no part in the NEW COVENANT promise (Jeremiah 31:31-36; Hebrews 8:10-12).
blessings
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sooda
Veteran Member
The Jewish view of the mere wording "new covenant" is no more than a renewed national commitment to abide by God's laws. In this view, the word new does not refer to a new commitment that replaces a previous one, but rather to an additional and greater level of commitment
sooda
Veteran Member
I believe God's true ISRAEL according to the scriptures are not those according to the flesh (the nation of Israel in name only) in the new covenant and are not those by name only but all those in Christ who believe and follow God's Word. Those of the FLESH (sinful human nature) are not Abrahams seed but those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God in Christ are God's ISRAEL according to the scriptures...
ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.
God's ISRAEL are all those in CHRIST that have been given a NEW HEART according to the NEW COVENANT promise...
ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
In the NEW COVENANT all those in Christ are are God's ISRAEL...
COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.
ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.
The New Covenant is for God's Israel...
EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A NEW HEART WILL I GIVE YOU, AND A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART OUT OF YOUR FLESH, AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. [27], AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM.
and again...
JEREMIAH 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Paul proclaims it here...
HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
The NEW COVENANT is for GOD'S ISRAEL which represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD.
I believe if the scriptueres teach if we are not part of GOD'S ISRAEL defined in the scriptures as those who believe and follow God's Word (not physical ISRAEL according to the flesh), then we have no part in the NEW COVENANT promise (Jeremiah 31:31-36; Hebrews 8:10-12).
blessings
So you believe Paul while calling the Catholic Church Babylon and the Pope antichrist?
Paul died before the Temple was destroyed.. He expected Jesus to return any minute.
Iymus
Active Member
i believe it was as a prince power with God and it's origin is of God's greatest subordinate.
Perhaps Messiah only and those who are grafted into him being jew first then gentile Israelites "lost tribes" and perhaps non gentile israelites after.
it seems so according to certain verses in NT
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I object to your use of the term “true.” Replacement theology is disingenuous and incongruent with the understanding of the authors. The OP is fundamentally flawed.Hi all
This thread is started, because some seem to be confused mixing up the physical nation of ISRAEL in the old covenant scriptures with God's true ISRAEL in the new covenant.
In this thread we are asking the questions...
1. What is the origin of the name of Israel and what does it mean?
2. Who are those identified as God's Israel in the new covenant?
3. Are gentiles grafted in to God's Israel?
4. What about the nation of Israel?
5. What about the Sabbath and Israel?
I will provide what I have discovered from a prayerful study of God's Word below for your consideration below and look forward to hearing your view (scripture only please).
May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
OF COURSE IT IS