What? No war !

dfnj said:

Can your heart be filled for anymore possible hate? I'm getting a little tired of this American fascism we have going on here. The next thing you are going to do is call for putting Democrats in prison for thought crimes. When is this madness going to stop?

Trump was insanely reckless with his foreign policy. The problem with this country is people like you. Trump could throw babies up in the air and catch them on a bayonet and you would still lick his boot. You can still like Trump. But killing General Salami was a dumb and reckless foreign policy. Not everything is about worshiping your leader like he is God on Earth.

And for the record, Republicans are just as bad as Democrats in every possible way. If you think otherwise your are being purely delusional. Lobbyists define domestic policy for both parties. The Council of Foreign Relations defines foreign policy for both parties. Other than reckless assassination of General Salami, 99% of Trump's foreign policy is exactly the same as Obama's. And Obama's was 100% exactly the same as GWB's. There's really no difference between either party. So stop pretending your Republicans are holy angels sent to us directly from God. I live in New Jersey. I can assure you there is nothing pure and innocent with any politician coming out of this state!

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Hate, are you joking ? I don't hate anyone, and one of my daughters, as well as a sister are democrats. We don't discuss politics, but there is certainly no hate involved.

I do hate the democrat ;political philosophy, I do hate their desire to enact huge taxes with the purpose of giving to others what someone else has earned, I hate the democrat concept that free speech is no longer free, that the first and second amendments should be regularly attacked and weakened, I hate the democrat support for open borders, their love of a bloated federal government that reaches into peoples lives continually. I hate virtually everything about the democrat party and it's goals. But people, because they are democrats, no.

Your hyperbolic baloney is quite amusing, but pure baloney nevertheless.

All politicians are liars to a greater or lesser extent.

You apparently are unaware of the continued attacks on us and our allies by Iran going back to their storming of our embassy and making hostages of Americans who by international law had total diplomatic immunity.

Whacking salami ( suelimani sp?) was the killing of an international terrorist who traveled all over planning and executing terrorist attacks, killing 600 Americans, at least as a result. He was sanctioned by the UN to not travel outside Iran, and Obama declared him a terrorist. I applaud Trump for killing this scum. Iran doesn't like it, tough. As Machiavelli said, who cares if you are liked, as long as you are feared. Iran now, once again, fears us.

Contrary to what you believe, I am not a trumpbot. Trump acts like a buffoon most of the time. His mistakes that I see are called out by me. Though I haven't seen him bayoneting any babies.

The results of Trumps administration I mostly agree with.

I am not sure what democrats want from the Trump administration in the middle east.

He removed a handful of troops in the way of a Turkish invasion, that was wrong. He began removing troops from the middle east, that was wrong. He added troops, that was wrong. He attempted to diplomatically curtail N. Korea, that was wrong, he has not maximised diplomatic efforts re Iran, that is wrong. He did not respond to syrias use of poison gas, that was wrong, he did respond to syrias use of gas, that was wrong, removing troops was important, yet removing them was wrong because the Kurds were exposed.

NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES, he is wrong in democrat eyes.

We all approved of Obama violating without notice the air space of Pakistan and making no effort to capture bin laden, he was just shot down, good.

A terrorist responsible for killing many thousands of people including hundreds of Americans, is killed and Trump is all wrong.

Iran has been attacking America, so this should be ignored because if we respond they might attack America, the democrat philosophy. Disgusting.

So my democrat friend, I love you, but I despise your political party and what it stands for.

Dan From Smithville said:

You will have to explain your reasoning for anything that you want or do not want. I cannot do it for you. I said I thought you wanted it. You have made statements that would lead to that conclusion.

Am I to take from this that you do not want a war with Iran?

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I do not want a war with Iran, though Iran may force us to go to war with them.

It is totally and completely up to Iran as to whether there is a war

shmogie said:

Many democrats are no doubt disappointed, the killing of Iran's terrorist general has not resulted in WW3.

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That is an ignorant comment. Not surprising, just ignorant.

shmogie said:

The results of Trumps administration I mostly agree with.

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Can you specify what "results of Trumps administration" you "mostly agree with"?

The tax cut?
The non-existent return of coal mining Jobs?
The non-existent return of the steel industry?
The China trade policy that required huge farmer bailouts?
The huge mounting debt that Republicans used to care about?

shmogie said:

I do not want a war with Iran, though Iran may force us to go to war with them.

It is totally and completely up to Iran as to whether there is a war

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It was your Jesus#2/Trump that killed the nuke treaty. That led directly to the current crises. The current crises also put on hold the moderate's demonstrations.

That's what happens when someone is ignorant of international politics and allows his petty annoyances to rule his thoughts. Rational people see this. You don't.

shmogie said:

I do not want a war with Iran, though Iran may force us to go to war with them.

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Iran lacks the capability to pose an existential threat to us, so
they couldn't force war upon us. But "we were forced" would
be our claim for a choice we wanted & freely made.
People like to evade responsibility by claiming no choice.

Revoltingest said:

Iran lacks the capability to pose an existential threat to us, so
they couldn't force war upon us. But "we were forced" would
be our claim for a choice we wanted & freely made.
People like to evade responsibility by claiming no choice.

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If they blew up one of our embassies, killing a hundred Americans, or shot down an airliner with 50 Americans aboard, or swarmed one of our military outposts with a small garrison, and killed all the troops, I would say we have no choice but attack them, en masse, war.

Of course, we could choose to ignore them, once again.

That would be strategic and political suicide, a choice that no sane president would consider.

The fact is, we have been at war with them since 1979. When they chant death to America, thy aren't just whistling Dixie. When they say they will destroy Israel, it isn't a rhetorical point.

They are a are a real enemy that thinks and acts in primitive ways.

The current regime NEEDS conflict with the USA to take the eyes of the people off of the shambles they have made of their nation.

When they attack us, or our allies, they do it with the cold calculation that they can get away with it. However, they could go too far. Now, the game will be played with a new set of rules, and they will abide by them. They know that killing Americans will no longer be tolerated, and they won't go there. If they do, Trump might send missiles into the mad mullahs palaces one night, and they know it.

shmogie said:

If they blew up one of our embassies, killing a hundred Americans, or shot down an airliner with 50 Americans aboard, or swarmed one of our military outposts with a small garrison, and killed all the troops, I would say we have no choice but attack them, en masse, war.

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It would still be a choice.
The fact that it's so compelling to you doesn't eliminate other options.

Of course, we could choose to ignore them, once again.

That would be strategic and political suicide, a choice that no sane president would consider.

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To wage war or ignore....there are other options.

The fact is, we have been at war with them since 1979. When they chant death to America, thy aren't just whistling Dixie. When they say they will destroy Israel, it isn't a rhetorical point.

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They have their violent rhetoric....so do we.
No one should go to war over mean things said to each other.

No one has yet presented an actual quote with an Iranian official saying that
Iran intends to destroy Israel. This threat to Israel strikes me as a rallying
war cry by our hawks rather than a genuine threat justifying war.

They are a are a real enemy that thinks and acts in primitive ways.

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That would be to underestimate them.
We've done that before, & lost the wars.

The current regime NEEDS conflict with the USA to take the eyes of the people off of the shambles they have made of their nation.

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One might say that Ameristan needs conflict with a boogeyman,
& Iran has been it for many decades. I see this as rooted in
Christian & Jewish hatred for Muslims dominating our politics.

When they attack us, or our allies, they do it with the cold calculation that they can get away with it. However, they could go too far. Now, the game will be played with a new set of rules, and they will abide by them. They know that killing Americans will no longer be tolerated, and they won't go there. If they do, Trump might send missiles into the mad mullahs palaces one night, and they know it.

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We have attacked Iran with far greater might, death & destruction than
they have us. It's no wonder that they want to join the nuclear club.
It would immunize them against or continual existential threats.

What matters isn't responding to this or that skirmish or insult.
It should be about avoiding war, & negotiating away their gaining
nuclear weapons. Alas, Trump's policies are achieving the opposite.

Revoltingest said:

It would still be a choice.
The fact that it's so compelling to you doesn't eliminate other options.

To wage war or ignore....there are other options.

They have their violent rhetoric....so do we.
No one should go to war over mean things said to each other.

No one has yet presented an actual quote with an Iranian official saying that
Iran intends to destroy Israel. This threat to Israel strikes me as a rallying
war cry by our hawks rather than a genuine threat justifying war.

That would be to underestimate them.
We've done that before, & lost the wars.

One might say that Ameristan needs conflict with a boogeyman,
& Iran has been it for many decades. I see this as rooted in
Christian & Jewish hatred for Muslims dominating our politics.

We have attacked Iran with far greater might, death & destruction than
they have us. It's no wonder that they want to join the nuclear club.
It would immunize them against or continual existential threats.

What matters isn't responding to this or that skirmish or insult.
It should be about avoiding war, & negotiating away their gaining
nuclear weapons. Alas, Trump's policies are achieving the opposite.

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Hmmm, how do you negotiate with someone who does not want to negotiate ?

Every attack on iran has been predicated by an Iranian attack.

To be clear then, what exactly would you propose to do in response to Iranian attacks on our personnel or assets ?

I can't quite understand why you brought religion into the discussion. I would propose the same response if we were attacked by Peru, or Greece, or the Vatican.

Since Obama;s agreement guaranteed Iran a nuclear weapon, it was stupid and dangerous. Just as appeasement by Presidents and congresses of both parties believed they could buy off N. Korea from getting nukes was stupid and dangerous.. The Kim family took the payoffs and got the bomb.

shmogie said:

Hmmm, how do you negotiate with someone who does not want to negotiate ?

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Never presume the other side won't negotiate.

Every attack on iran has been predicated by an Iranian attack.

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And every Iranian attack has been preceded by one of ours.
If we're to justify everything in this manner, we're doomed to endless conflict.
The goal should not be automatic retaliation.

To be clear then, what exactly would you propose to do in response to Iranian attacks on our personnel or assets ?

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Sincere negotiation.

I can't quite understand why you brought religion into the discussion. I would propose the same response if we were attacked by Peru, or Greece, or the Vatican.

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Religion is critical here.
I've had many discussions with hawks who base their position on religion.
We also have US predilection for preemptively attacking Muslim countries.
Religion is also a good explanation because of the irrationality of pursuing
a needless conflict. It also explains our callousness towards life of those
not like us. We agonize over a few hostages because they of our tribe,
but there's nary a peep about our aiding Iraq with biological & chemical
weapons to kill hundreds of thousands of Iranians from 1980-1988.
This kind of division between the righteous & the wicked is religious thinking.
Trump's invoking God rings true with millions.
Note that religion doesn't serve Iranians well either.
We need cooler heads, unencumbered by hatred or dysfunctional
beliefs about one people being better than another..

Since Obama;s agreement guaranteed Iran a nuclear weapon, it was stupid and dangerous. Just as appeasement by Presidents and congresses of both parties believed they could buy off N. Korea from getting nukes was stupid and dangerous.. The Kim family took the payoffs and got the bomb.

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A peaceful country with a nuclear weapon is better than war with a non-nuclear country.

Revoltingest said:

An early spring, eh.

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It's an election year so yes.

shmogie said:

Hmmm, how do you negotiate with someone who does not want to negotiate ?

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As a diversion, yes, Moscow Mitch is a classic example of someone who won't negotiate.

Revoltingest said:

It's a big country.
They might have more than one location for military assets.

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Those who have studied Iran have said that they are well aware of US power and have built their military accordingly to survive an all out, albeit non-nuclear, attack.

sun rise said:

As a diversion, yes, Moscow Mitch is a classic example of someone who won't negotiate.

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One should recognize that behavior one
dislikes isn't necessarily refusal to negotiate.
To believe one's foe won't negotiate is dangerous.
It inspires Trump-like behavior.
Do you want to be like him?
Do you believe we cannot negotiate with Iran?

sun rise said:

Those who have studied Iran have said that they are well aware of US power and have built their military accordingly to survive an all out, albeit non-nuclear, attack.

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But they're crazy & backward....we'd defeat them easily with just 20 big bombs.

shmogie said:

NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES, he is wrong in democrat eyes.

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That's what the right did when President Obama was in office so politics are politics.

Democrats agree that his strategy on China is a good one while arguing about tactics. So it's hardly "NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES" - I site below one example of a Democrat agreeing with the tactic.

(Buttigieg), that President Donald Trump was “right to push back on China” (Bennet), but that “the tariffs and the trade war are the wrong way to go” (Yang). This same line came back in the second Democratic debate on July 30: That “President Trump was onto something when he talked about China” (Tim Ryan),

The US Democrats’ China Debate

Sen. Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio), who won reelection in 2018 in a state won by Trump, has spoken positively about the tariffs and helped block a Republican-led effort in 2018 to weaken them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...ruggle-present-united-front-trumps-trade-war/

Revoltingest said:

One should recognize that behavior one
dislikes isn't necessarily refusal to negotiate.
To believe one's foe won't negotiate is dangerous.
It inspires Trump-like behavior.
Do you want to be like him?
Do you believe we cannot negotiate with Iran?

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I believe we can and should negotiate with them because they are open to negotiation. We should talk with anyone who will talk. The leader of the Senate is a different case because he's all about not talking and has proudly announced that and lives up to it.

shmogie said:

Hmmm, how do you negotiate with someone who does not want to negotiate ?

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Someone like your God/Trump? Indeed, it is next to impossible.

Salvador said:

If Iran were to have built any underground military facilities for shielding their weapons against any electromagnetic pulses, the U.S. military could just as well take them out by the Mother of All Bombs.

GBU-43/B MOAB - Wikipedia

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Are you aware that many countries have built underground facilities to withstand nuclear attacks?

A MOAB is not near this level of power, and, as it's name, Massive Ordnance Air Burst, suggests, explodes in the air over surface targets, rather than penetrating the ground before exploding like a 'bunker buster' bomb.

Killing people in open caves dug by tribesmen with a massive shockwave is not the same as blowing up a purpose built underground military facility designed to be bomb proof.

It also has to be delivered by a slow moving transport plane, which is somewhat problematic if your target has any form of anti-aircraft defences.

Augustus said:

Are you aware that many countries have built underground facilities to withstand nuclear attacks?

A MOAB is not near this level of power, and, as it's name, Massive Ordnance Air Burst, suggests, explodes in the air over surface targets, rather than penetrating the ground before exploding like a 'bunker buster' bomb.

Killing people in open caves dug by tribesmen with a massive shockwave is not the same as blowing up a purpose built underground military facility designed to be bomb proof.

It also has to be delivered by a slow moving transport plane, which is somewhat problematic if your target has any form of anti-aircraft defences.

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There's another bomb in the U.S. military arsenal designed for the purpose of destroying underground bunkers, this being the GBU-57A/B Massive Ordnance Penetrator (MOP), which is a precision-guided, 30,000-pound (14,000 kg) "bunker buster" bomb used by the United States Air Force. These bombs can be effectively delivered on target by stealth bombers.