Proof Jesus said he is not God in atleast 3 Gospel accounts

Redemptionsong said:

Point 1. In coming to earth, God chooses to appear amongst us (for example, as the angel of the Lord, and as His only begotten Son). To do this he must have an appearance or image, but this automatically places the Son in a lesser position to his Father. Can you find anywhere in scripture where the authority of the resurrected Son is not equal to that of the Father?

Point 2. Thomas said, My Lord and my God. [John 20:28] No amount of wriggling changes this!

Point 3. True, the Son proceeds from the Father. John 8:42 says, 'Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.' This means that the Father and the Son are of the same Spirit - the Spirit of God. The Father sends forth that which is His OWN SPIRIT. How can this Spirit not be the ONE GOD?

Point 4. This is explained above. The Son is subject to the Father.

Point 5. Again you quote from Ephesians 4:6 but only underline the first part of the trinity! God is also 'through all', and 'within all' (who believe).

Now, answer a question for me. Deuteronomy 32: 3,4 says, 'Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment; a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.' Who, according to this passage, is the Rock?

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1. How can you believe Jesus is not God when you seek not the honour that cometh from his God and Father only?

Joh 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

2. Self Explanatory

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

3. Why can you not hear?

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

4. Self Explanatory

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

moorea944 said:

[Point 1. In coming to earth, God chooses to appear amongst us (for example, as the angel of the Lord, and as His only begotten Son). To do this he must have an appearance or image, but this automatically places the Son in a lesser position to his Father. Can you find anywhere in scripture where the authority of the resurrected Son is not equal to that of the Father?]

Ok, a couple of things here. God doesnt appear as angels. There is God and the angels. The angels bear and carry God's name in them, just like Jesus. The angels represent God, just like Jesus. Jesus said that he came in his father's name...... Plus, Jesus is not equal to his father. No where in scripture does it say that. God manifests himself into angels, Jesus or whoever he wants. Angels can talk to someone as if God was talking through them or they can talk to someone with a message from God.

[Point 2. Thomas said, My Lord and my God. [John 20:28] No amount of wriggling changes this!
Thomas is not calling Jesus God. God in this verse is Elohim. You are my Lord and Elohim. Angels can be Elohim, and that is in most cases. ]

Look at the OT. Moses was God to Pharaoh. God in those verses was Elohim. The Judges before the kings were called Gods or Elohim in Hebrew. Because they were the ones who brought the word of God to the people. Same with the Levicial priesthood. Look at John 10.....

Thomas had every right to call Jesus God. You are my Lord and Elohim. Because Jesus was the one who brought the word of God to the people. Very simple language. Jesus is not GOD hmself. Or very God.

[Point 3. True, the Son proceeds from the Father. John 8:42 says, 'Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.' This means that the Father and the Son are of the same Spirit - the Spirit of God. The Father sends forth that which is His OWN SPIRIT. How can this Spirit not be the ONE GOD?]

The same spirit, yes. Jesus had the same spirit in the way that he manifested his father's charactor perfectly. Jesus did his father's will, not his own. We try to have the same spirit or mindset as our Creator too. A spiritual mind, not an earthly mind.

[Point 4. This is explained above. The Son is subject to the Father.]

Correct. And always will be.

[Point 5. Again you quote from Ephesians 4:6 but only underline the first part of the trinity! God is also 'through all', and 'within all' (who believe).]

God's spirit is in us. Is that what you mean?

[Now, answer a question for me. Deuteronomy 32: 3,4 says, 'Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment; a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.' Who, according to this passage, is the Rock?]

In the OT, God was the rock of salvation. He was the life, the rock, and everyone knew that. It wasnt Jesus because he wasnt born yet and he did not pre-exist. And now, with his son, he was given all power and authority to him. He didnt have them before he was born.

Everything starts with our Creator. Everything.
Look at Hebrews 1. "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things"

Why did God speak to Jesus in past times? And why only in the last days? That's because Jesus wasnt there. Meaning..... he didnt pre-exist like some people believe (dont know why...) . He was born and when he was at the right age, then he sent his son into the world. And there's a reason for that at age 30. That's all through OT too.

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You say that everything starts with the Creator. I totally agree. 'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.' But to understand how God creates we have to look elsewhere in scripture. John 1:1,2 tells us that, 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.' It is through the Word that creation takes place. The Will comes from the Father, the express Word is His formative and creative power. As Colossians 1:15,16 states, 'Who [Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him [the Word] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.'

The message, so far, is clear. The Son is one with the Father in Spirit [John 10:30], yet he performs a role that is distinct from the Father. The Son, or Word, is sent forth as light into a dark world. This is God's Spirit come into the world. But to be recognised in this world, the Spirit of God must take a form. To be the Saviour from sin, the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ must be present on earth in flesh. Hence, we have the conundrum of the relationship between the Father and the Son, and finally the Holy Spirit. A God who takes on flesh is taking a lesser position to his Father in heaven. The Son [God's Spirit sent forth] is locked in flesh for a period of his mortal existence. Only when he is unlocked from corruptible flesh can he return to a spiritual position in heaven, at the right hand of his Father.

The name Jesus is given to the son born of Mary. This is the human side of Christ. At baptism, aged about thirty, Jesus received the fulness of the Godhead bodily [Colossians 2:9]. He was, as I keep saying, both fully human and fully God. This is why he makes the perfect mediator between God and Man. But once you take away the flesh, you have the Spirit of God's Son in all His glory. Some people, such as Simon Peter and John, were able to glimpse this reality even while Jesus walked in the flesh. Unlike the man who said, Good Master [Matthew 19:16], Jesus' close disciples were able to recognise the fulness of the Spirit of God in Jesus. You could say that we are all caught in this on-going revelation of God. We may start by thinking of Jesus as just a prophet or good man, but when mature in the faith we can see that he is, as Thomas realised, our Lord and our God.

You say that in the OT, God was the rock of salvation. I'm glad we can agree on this. This is confirmed in 2 Samuel 22:2, Psalm 18:2 and Psalm 42:9. Now look at 1 Corinthians 10:4. Here, talking about Moses in the wilderness, it says, 'And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.' So, the Rock that is called LORD in the OT is called Christ in the NT. This is a problem for unitarians.

Hawkins said:

In a car accident, you have to rely on an eyewitness to describe the moment of the incident. You can't be more accurate than the one saw with his own eyes. This is how the process of human witnessing works.

You can't be more credible to claim otherwise when Thomas called Jesus God.

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"The God and Father of the Lord Jesus" 2 Cor 11:31

Do you think Thomas knew that Jesus has a God?

Iymus said:

Simple Equation #1.

God = Good
Jesus = Not Good
Jesus = Not God

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mar 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
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Simple Equation #2

God = Good
Father = Good
Father = God

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
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Closing verses

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

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be prepared to get trolled and your leg pulled and your chain yanked by the militant atheist swarm that is all over this forum

Iymus said:

1. How can you believe Jesus is not God when you seek not the honour that cometh from his God and Father only?

Joh 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

2. Self Explanatory

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

3. Why can you not hear?

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

4. Self Explanatory

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Click to expand...

You should apply the three verses of John 5 to your own position. You say that Jesus Christ is not God. Therefore Jesus Christ, who tells us he comes from God, in God's name, is not being received by you as God. Jesus only comes in the name of God because he is OF GOD. He cannot claim this name without being of the one Spirit that is GOD.

Here's another little puzzle for you. Psalm 110.

Psalm 110 says, 'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.' Jesus quotes these words in Matthew 22:44, and also says to the Pharisees, 'What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.' [So, like you, the Pharisees did not think that Christ was of God] He [Jesus] saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?'

David was prepared to call Christ, My Lord. This is exactly what Thomas was prepared to do. 'My Lord and my God'. So now we have King David saying exactly the same as Thomas.

Redemptionsong said:

You should apply the three verses of John 5 to your own position. You say that Jesus Christ is not God. Therefore Jesus Christ, who tells us he comes from God, in God's name, is not being received by you as God. Jesus only comes in the name of God because he is OF GOD. He cannot claim this name without being of the one Spirit that is GOD.

Here's another little puzzle for you. Psalm 110.

Psalm 110 says, 'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.' Jesus quotes these words in Matthew 22:44, and also says to the Pharisees, 'What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.' [So, like you, the Pharisees did not think that Christ was of God] He [Jesus] saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?'

David was prepared to call Christ, My Lord. This is exactly what Thomas was prepared to do. 'My Lord and my God'. So now we have King David saying exactly the same as Thomas.

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1. Ain't no puzzle, you are using David's lord to deny David's Lord God. David's lord is The Lord his God's "Lord God" only begotten son.

Luk 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


2. Lord God who is the Most High God, gave his only begotten son the kingdom of his earthly father david.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

3. Our Lord is not Most High but sat down on his right hand as written because he was commanded to.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

4. You have already proven multiple times that you have no foundation when it comes to your Jesus is God doctrine. You consistently hide behind verses that would be considered vaque without an understanding. So when understanding is given you retreat to another verse that is vaque without understanding.

5. Let's not forget the main point of this post which you have also been tap dancing and deflecting away from .

Simple Equation #1.

God = Good
Jesus = Not Good
Jesus = Not God

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mar 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
--------------------------------------------------------

LightofTruth said:

"The God and Father of the Lord Jesus" 2 Cor 11:31

Do you think Thomas knew that Jesus has a God?

Click to expand...

Maybe I can answer this objection.

There is only one God, and Jesus did worship God. Jesus, like every other Jew, was man with a soul and spirit. Throughout the years of his growing up under the law [Galatians 4:4], Jesus would have worshipped as every other Jew worshipped. His worship would have been directed to the one God of Israel.

The Spirit that Jesus receives at baptism places him in a new relationship to his God, for Jesus now has the Spirit of Sonship, the Holy Spirit. This Spirit enables him to say, Abba, Father. [Galatians 4:4-7]

Redemptionsong said:

You say that everything starts with the Creator. I totally agree. 'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.' But to understand how God creates we have to look elsewhere in scripture. John 1:1,2 tells us that, 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.' It is through the Word that creation takes place. The Will comes from the Father, the express Word is His formative and creative power. As Colossians 1:15,16 states, 'Who [Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him [the Word] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.'

The message, so far, is clear. The Son is one with the Father in Spirit [John 10:30], yet he performs a role that is distinct from the Father. The Son, or Word, is sent forth as light into a dark world. This is God's Spirit come into the world. But to be recognised in this world, the Spirit of God must take a form. To be the Saviour from sin, the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ must be present on earth in flesh. Hence, we have the conundrum of the relationship between the Father and the Son, and finally the Holy Spirit. A God who takes on flesh is taking a lesser position to his Father in heaven. The Son [God's Spirit sent forth] is locked in flesh for a period of his mortal existence. Only when he is unlocked from the flesh can he return to a spiritual position in heaven, at the right hand of his Father.

The name Jesus is given to the son born of Mary. This is the human side of Christ. At baptism, aged about thirty, Jesus received the fulness of the Godhead bodily [Colossians 2:9]. He was, as I keep saying, both fully human and fully God. This is why he makes the perfect mediator between God and Man. But once you take away the flesh, you have the Spirit of God's Son in all His glory. Some people, such as Simon Peter and John, were able to glimpse this reality even while Jesus walked in the flesh. Unlike the man who said, Good Master [Matthew 19:16], Jesus' close disciples were able to recognise the fulness of the Spirit of God in Jesus. You could say that we are all caught in this on-going revelation of God. We may start by thinking of Jesus as just a prophet or good man, but when mature in the faith we can see that he is, as Thomas realised, our Lord and our God.

You say that in the OT, God was the rock of salvation. I'm glad we can agree on this. This is confirmed in 2 Samuel 22:2, Psalm 18:2 and Psalm 42:9. Now look at 1 Corinthians 10:4. Here, talking about Moses in the wilderness, it says, 'And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.' So, the Rock that is called LORD in the OT is called Christ in the NT. This is a problem for unitarians.

Click to expand...

John 1.... In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Ok, let's talk about that verse....

First of all, the translators put a capital "W" on the word "Word". In Hebrew, it is the word "Logos". Logos means someone plans, reasons or thoughts. So, in the beginning was God's plans. Then..... in verse 14, God's plans become real and now we have the Lord Jesus Christ. What it doesnt say is.... Jesus was in the beginning with God and created everything with him. God created the world with Jesus in his mind and plans.

[A God who takes on flesh is taking a lesser position to his Father in heaven. The Son [God's Spirit sent forth] is locked in flesh for a period of his mortal existence. Only when he is unlocked from the flesh can he return to a spiritual position in heaven, at the right hand of his Father.]

I dont know where your getting this from........

[The name Jesus is given to the son born of Mary. This is the human side of Christ.]

Human side of Christ?... Christ WAS human. Then after he was raised, he then became immortal. You cant be immortal then mortal, then back to immortal..... There was only one Jesus, not two or two sides to him.

[He was, as I keep saying, both fully human and fully God. This is why he makes the perfect mediator between God and Man.]

Jesus was fully human and fully God at the same time? Wow, sounds like a Clash of the Titans movie! or Greek mythology. Think of what your saying here..... is someone telling you that? because that is not in scripture.

He made a perfect mediator because he WAS like us. Heb 2 tells us that, along with the book of Romans. If he was a God, then that and the atonement goes right out the window!!

[Here, talking about Moses in the wilderness, it says, 'And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.' So, the Rock that is called LORD in the OT is called Christ in the NT. This is a problem for unitarians.]

Remember that things in the OT are a figure or type of things to come. You mentioned that the Rock is called LORD in the OT. Is there a verse on that? Because there is no verse that says that the rock was called "LORD". Because the rock is not the LORD (Yahweh), it is representing Christ. 1 Corin 10 v 4. "Rock" should not be in a cap "R". Most bibles dont have it like that. I think the KJV does, for some reason or other.

There is only one Creator in scripture. Jesus is the son of God. He is not a God or God himself or very God. Jesus came in his father's name. He represented his father in all ways. There were two wills... the will of Christ and the will of God. Jesus chose to do his father's will.
God didnt change into a man or something like that. That totally degrades our Creator. There is a reason why the Messiah had to be "like us" and had to die. Romans and Hebrews explains that very well, along with other books too.

Hope this helps. Have a wonderful day.

Iymus said:

1. Ain't no puzzle, you are using David's lord to deny David's Lord God. David's lord is The Lord his God's "Lord God" only begotten son.

Luk 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


2. Lord God who is the Most High God, gave his only begotten son the kingdom of his earthly father david.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

3. Our Lord is not Most High but sat down on his right hand as written because he was commanded to.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

4. You have already proven multiple times that you have no foundation when it comes to your Jesus is God doctrine. You consistently hide behind verses that would be considered vaque without an understanding. So when understanding is given you retreat to another verse that is vaque without understanding.

5. Let's not forget the main point of this post which you have also been tap dancing and deflecting away from .

Simple Equation #1.

God = Good
Jesus = Not Good
Jesus = Not God

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mar 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
--------------------------------------------------------

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Let's begin with the 'Simple Equation'.

Nowhere in any of these three Gospel passages does it say that Jesus is not good. What it says, is that only God is good. So let's make this our Premise No1.

P1. God alone is good.

When it comes to premise number 2, we cannot say that Jesus is not good because nowhere in scripture does it say that Jesus is not good! In fact, it says exactly the opposite! 1 Peter 2:22, 'Who [Jesus] did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:'. So, instead of saying that Jesus is not good, we are forced to write the opposite.

P2. Jesus is good.

Which leads us to the exact opposite conclusion to the one that you have reached, namely,

C. Jesus is God.

Redemptionsong said:

Let's begin with the 'Simple Equation'.

Nowhere in any of these three Gospel passages does it say that Jesus is not good. What it says, is that only God is good. So let's make this our Premise No1.

P1. God alone is good.

When it comes to premise number 2, we cannot say that Jesus is not good because nowhere in scripture does it say that Jesus is not good! In fact, it says exactly the opposite! 1 Peter 2:22, 'Who [Jesus] did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:'. So, instead of saying that Jesus is not good, we are forced to write the opposite.

P2. Jesus is good.

Which leads us to the exact opposite conclusion to the one that you have reached, namely,

C. Jesus is God.

Click to expand...

1. Stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry 1Sa 15:23

2. How can you believe Jesus is not God when you seek not the honour that cometh from his God and Father only? "John 5:42-44"

3. You cannot conform the words of Jesus to his disciples. You must conform the words of the disciples to Jesus.

4. Mat 7:21 + Joh 7:17 .= Self Explanatory

5. You would rather turn this into a circular argument instead of seeking the honour that cometh from his God and Father only, and be seemingly proud of that fact. Once again:

1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

6. Lord God is Our Heavenly Father The Most High God. Our Lord is his only begotten son and righteous servant.

7. Our Lord declared / represented Lord God.

8. Nothing further to address you. Look over the verses and precepts already used throughout.

chris baron said:

be prepared to get trolled and your leg pulled and your chain yanked by the militant atheist swarm that is all over this forum

Click to expand...

1. To their defense, they seemingly come off more as hot or cold, and not lukewarm.

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

2. Also Jesus not being God would not contradict with their beliefs.

moorea944 said:

John 1.... In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Ok, let's talk about that verse....

First of all, the translators put a capital "W" on the word "Word". In Hebrew, it is the word "Logos". Logos means someone plans, reasons or thoughts. So, in the beginning was God's plans. Then..... in verse 14, God's plans become real and now we have the Lord Jesus Christ. What it doesnt say is.... Jesus was in the beginning with God and created everything with him. God created the world with Jesus in his mind and plans.

[A God who takes on flesh is taking a lesser position to his Father in heaven. The Son [God's Spirit sent forth] is locked in flesh for a period of his mortal existence. Only when he is unlocked from the flesh can he return to a spiritual position in heaven, at the right hand of his Father.]

I dont know where your getting this from........

[The name Jesus is given to the son born of Mary. This is the human side of Christ.]

Human side of Christ?... Christ WAS human. Then after he was raised, he then became immortal. You cant be immortal then mortal, then back to immortal..... There was only one Jesus, not two or two sides to him.

[He was, as I keep saying, both fully human and fully God. This is why he makes the perfect mediator between God and Man.]

Jesus was fully human and fully God at the same time? Wow, sounds like a Clash of the Titans movie! or Greek mythology. Think of what your saying here..... is someone telling you that? because that is not in scripture.

He made a perfect mediator because he WAS like us. Heb 2 tells us that, along with the book of Romans. If he was a God, then that and the atonement goes right out the window!!

[Here, talking about Moses in the wilderness, it says, 'And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.' So, the Rock that is called LORD in the OT is called Christ in the NT. This is a problem for unitarians.]

Remember that things in the OT are a figure or type of things to come. You mentioned that the Rock is called LORD in the OT. Is there a verse on that? Because there is no verse that says that the rock was called "LORD". Because the rock is not the LORD (Yahweh), it is representing Christ. 1 Corin 10 v 4. "Rock" should not be in a cap "R". Most bibles dont have it like that. I think the KJV does, for some reason or other.

There is only one Creator in scripture. Jesus is the son of God. He is not a God or God himself or very God. Jesus came in his father's name. He represented his father in all ways. There were two wills... the will of Christ and the will of God. Jesus chose to do his father's will.
God didnt change into a man or something like that. That totally degrades our Creator. There is a reason why the Messiah had to be "like us" and had to die. Romans and Hebrews explains that very well, along with other books too.

Hope this helps. Have a wonderful day.

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Thank you.

In response, let me say that the word 'Logos' is not Hebrew but Greek, and refers to words, or the Word. The translators gave it a capital letter for good reason, because Christ represents all the words of God. Confirmation is found in Revelation 19:13, 'And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.' [See 1John 5:7, 'For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three agree in one.'

Any effort to contort scripture will inevitably end in failure. ALL scripture must be shown to fit, and have coherence.

The scriptures clearly demonstrate that Jesus Christ was the true mediator between mankind and God. 1 Timothy 2:5 says, 'For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;' You might immediately think, yes, the MAN Christ Jesus. But now look carefully at the words of Paul to the Galatians, 3:20. 'Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.'

To be a mediator, you have to represent both sides, and Jesus Christ did this by being fully human and fully God. The scripture says that 'a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.' Jesus is a man, but he has within him the Spirit of God. Jesus Christ had the fulness of the Godhead bodily (as I keep repeating!). The Holy Spirit was not given by measure [John 3:34 says, 'For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.'

So, the question that you should answer honestly is this, Was God in Christ? Was God, in fulness, and without measure, in Jesus Christ? You appear to be saying no, but I would like to hear it plainly stated!

As regards the Rock, look at 2 Samuel 23:2,3. See also Deuteronomy 32:3,4. Both refer to the LORD as the Rock.

Iymus said:

1. Stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry 1Sa 15:23

2. How can you believe Jesus is not God when you seek not the honour that cometh from his God and Father only? "John 5:42-44"

3. You cannot conform the words of Jesus to his disciples. You must conform the words of the disciples to Jesus.

4. Mat 7:21 + Joh 7:17 .= Self Explanatory

5. You would rather turn this into a circular argument instead of seeking the honour that cometh from his God and Father only, and be seemingly proud of that fact. Once again:

1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

6. Lord God is Our Heavenly Father The Most High God. Our Lord is his only begotten son and righteous servant.

7. Our Lord declared / represented Lord God.

8. Nothing further to address you. Look over the verses and precepts already used throughout.

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I have tried to lay out a logical and reasoned argument for you to follow, but what I am now getting from you is a nonsense. Are you suggesting that my reasoned responses to your posts make me stubborn, iniquitous and idolatrous? If so, it's a good thing that I have God as my judge! [Psalm 96:13] Or should I say the Lord Jesus, since he will do the judging [Acts 10:40-42].

P1. God alone is my judge [Psalm 96:13]
P2. Jesus Christ is my judge [Acts 10:40-42]
C. Jesus Christ is God [Acts 10:43 > Mark 2:7]

Redemptionsong said:

I have tried to lay out a logical and reasoned argument for you to follow, but what I am now getting from you is a nonsense. Are you suggesting that my reasoned responses to your posts make me stubborn, iniquitous and idolatrous? If so, it's a good thing that I have God as my judge! [Psalm 96:13] Or should I say the Lord Jesus, since he will do the judging [Acts 10:40-42].

P1. God alone is my judge [Psalm 96:13]
P2. Jesus Christ is my judge [Acts 10:40-42]
C. Jesus Christ is God [Acts 10:43 > Mark 2:7]

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1. Self Explanatory

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Iymus said:

1. Self Explanatory

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

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A good quotation to end on, 1 Corinthians 15:28. This proves that the one God has stretched forth his arm to save a lost world. He stretches forth, and when redemption is achieved, he retracts his arm, 'that God may be all in all'. One God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

In John Chapter 17 The Son is praying to the Father and says out his mouth in verse three that his Father is the only true God. Only True means No Other.

Words of Jesus: Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Paraphrased Words of Redemptionsong and Nonbelievers : BULL!!! "then proceeds to use verses to contradict the Son's own words"

Interpretation of Jesus's own words by Redemtionsong and Nonbelievers: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee and Jesus Christ, the only true God, whom thou hast sent.

Iymus said:

In John Chapter 17 The Son is praying to the Father and says out his mouth in verse three that his Father is the only true God. Only True means No Other.

Words of Jesus: Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Paraphrased Words of Redemptionsong and Nonbelievers : BULL!!! "then proceeds to use verses to contradict the Son's own words"

Interpretation of Jesus's own words by Redemtionsong and Nonbelievers: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee and Jesus Christ, the only true God, whom thou hast sent.

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and Jesus Christ [You missed a bit of underlining]

Redemptionsong said:

and Jesus Christ [You missed a bit of underlining]

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1. you missed the singular possessive pronoun. but ironically, i bet if it had said "us" you would not have missed any pronouns.

2. The only true God sent the Son of God who made understanding of the only true God. We know this.

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Iymus said:

1. you missed the singular possessive pronoun. but ironically, i bet if it had said "us" you would not have missed any pronouns.

2. The only true God sent the Son of God who made understanding of the only true God. We know this.

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

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P1. God alone is truth
P2. Jesus Christ is truth
C. Jesus Christ is God

I'm quite liking these syllogisms.

Did you ever decide whether or not the LORD God was the Rock? [Deuteronomy 32:4]