Baha’i Faith, homosexuality, and censorship

I think that I owe some people some apologies for some confusion in what I’ve been saying. I’ll try to clarify it, but I’m not sure that I won’t scramble it again. I have a habit of trying to say too much in too few words.

In Internet discussions, sometimes people say that some Baha’is are opposing the House of Justice and violating the Baha’i Covenant when they say what they really think about some topics. In Baha’i thinking, that’s literally accusing them of a crime against humanity. Sometimes people also say that some Baha’is have been removed from the membership because of some views that they were promoting. I think all of that is false, and that it might be poisoning discussions with and between Baha’is, and sometimes discouraging Baha’is from saying what they honestly think. I think that is contrary to Bahá’u’lláh’s purposes and the purposes of the House of Justice, causing a lot of grief and impeding human progress. I’m not sure that anything I can say or do in Internet discussions can make any difference, but I decided to try. “Nothing ventured, nothing gained.”

I’ve been treating some quotations from Baha’i writings as irrelevant to what I’m saying. I still think that they are irrelevant to part of what I’m saying, but not all of it, so I’m planning now to discuss what I think about those quotations. Also, I’ve been treating allegations that I’m violating the Baha’i Covenant as irrelevant to what I’m saying, but now I see that they might be relevant, so I’m planning to respond to that also.

I still don’t see the fact that some Baha’is and some other people think I’m wrong as a reason for thinking that I’m wrong, no matter who or how many they are.

I want to comment on something that was said in another thread, because I think it’s highly relevant to what I’m saying here. Someone said that he talked to a Baha’i ABM (Auxiliary Board Member) about what I’ve been saying in these forums, and that the ABM told him that I have a problem with the Covenant. That illustrates the problem that I’ve been discussing in this thread. For some people, that’s the worst stigma that anyone can put on a member of the Baha’i Faith community, and it’s being said publicly about me only because I’ve said what I honestly think about some Baha’i teachings.

I’ve seen that happening many times in Internet discussions, when Baha’i have posted views that some people think are contrary to Baha’i scriptures and what the House of Justice has said about them. Some Baha’is start saying or insinuating that they are violating the Baha’i Covenant. I think that’s been poisoning discussions with and between Baha’is for more than 20 years now, and discouraging many Baha’is from saying what they think, not only in Internet discussions but maybe offline too. I think that it’s contrary to Bahá’u’lláh’s purposes and the purposes of the House of Justice, and impeding human progress. I would like for this discussion to help reduce and counteract those effects. I’m not sure that there’s really any hope for that, but I’ve decided to try.

I’ve been treating some quotes from Baha’i writings, and people stigmatizing me as a violator of the Baha’i Covenant, as irrelevant to what I’m saying, but now I think that I was wrong about that. I’m planning now to discuss all that.

I’ll respond now to some quotes that have been posted, and allegations that posting my views is contrary to the Baha’i Covenant, as arguments against what I’m saying.

I’m saying that it’s possible for any member of the Baha’i Faith to post any of their views in Internet discussions, without violating the letter or the spirit of any rule of the Baha’i Faith, and without any risk of losing their membership or being declared a Covenant breaker. I see now some more clarification that might be needed. I’m saying that any member can post any of their views. I’m not saying that they can promote their views any way they want to. There are rules in Baha’i scriptures about how people can promote their views, just like there are rules in Internet forums about how people can promote their views. Bahá’u’lláh’s rules might be more strict in some ways and less strict in others.

I’m saying that any member of the Baha’i Faith community can post any of their views without any risk of losing their membership or being declared a Covenant breaker, but that applies only to the community as it is defined by the Baha’i Universal House of Justice seated on Mount Carmel in Haifa, Israel. It does not apply to all the Baha’i Faiths that are being preached in Internet discussions. In some of those Baha’i Faiths a Baha’i who posts views that some other Baha’is think are contrary to some Baha’i teachings can be stigmatized by them as violators of the Baha’i Covenant, and treated much worse than the way actual Covenant breakers are treated.

Some quotes about opposition, contention, dissent and other adversarial ways of promoting ideas and interests have been posted as arguments against what I’m saying. I don’t think that those are about what views people can promote. I think they are about how people promote their views. I think that any Baha’i can promote any of their views without violating the letter or the spirit of any rule of the Baha’i Faith community, if they do it in a way that is in accordance with Bahá’u’lláh’s rules of conduct. That’s true by definition, in my way of thinking. In my way of thinking, Bahá’u’lláh’s rules are the rules of the Baha’i Faith community. If a person promotes their views in accordance with the letter and the spirit of Bahá’u’lláh’s rules, then by definition they are not violating the letter or the spirit of any rule of the community.

Time for breakfast. I’ll post this, then later I’ll continue in another post.

Another argument against what I’m saying has been to say that it’s contrary to the Baha’i Covenant for a Baha’i to say what I’m saying in public. At first I didn’t see that as a reason for thinking that what I’m saying is not true, but I see now that for some people it might be. The logic might be that if there is a rule from God against promoting some view then that view can’t be true.

As I said above, I don’t think that there is any rule from God about what views we can and can’t promote. I see rules of conduct from God that apply to to how we can promote our views, but not about what views we can or can’t promote. In fact I think that it’s contrary to Bahá’u’lláh’s purposes to discourage people from saying what they honestly think, even if they’re disagreeing with God Himself, and I don’t think that that the House of Justice would ever try to discourage anyone from saying what they honestly think in Internet discussions, even if it is contrary to Baha’i teachings. I don’t think the messages and actions of the House of Justice in response to Baha’i feuding on the Internet were to tell us what views we can and can’t promote. I think that they were to clarify how we can promote our views, if we want to be faithful to Bahá’u’lláh’s purposes and prescriptions.

I think that it’s contrary to Bahá’u’lláh’s purposes and prescriptions for people to promote their ideas and interests with campaigns of denunciation against other people. That includes campaigns of denunciation against other people because of what they believe or don’t believe. I think that it’s contrary to Bahá’u’lláh’s purposes and prescriptions to build a reputation among Baha’is as a source of knowledge and wisdom about the Baha’i Faith, and try to use that reputation to turn Baha’is away from what the House of Justice is promoting. I don’t think that it’s contrary to Bahá’u’lláh’s purposes or prescriptions for any Baha’i to say what they honestly think about anything in Internet discussions, if they are trying to learn to do it in ways that are in accordance with Bahá’u’lláh’s rules of conduct, and following the guidance about rules of conduct from the House of Justice.

Another possible argument that I see against what I’m saying is that I myself have not succeeded in posting my views without ever falling into contention with people around me, and I haven’t proven that it’s even possible at all for anyone with those views to do that, ever. I think that what matters is that we continually try to do better. Also, when I see myself falling into contention I stop and try to pull myself out of it. There is some wisdom from Abdul-Baha not to teach the Faith openly where there is opposition to it, which might mean that it would be better not to post my views where there is opposition to them from other Baha’is, but I’m not sure about that. I think I’ll read that again and think about it some more.

Now I’m seeing the censorship and repression of the views of Baha’is in Internet discussions, and other people’s frustrations in discussions with people promoting what they call “Baha’i beliefs,” as two sides of the same coin. It’s a few people, possibly no more than a few dozen, in various Internet discussions, who see the ground that they’re standing on as some “Baha’i beliefs” that they don’t dare question. When they see other Baha’is questioning those beliefs, they can only see them as not true Baha’is, or worse, violators of the Baha’i Covenant, which for some Baha’is is like being accused of crimes against humanity or being called a Baha’i Judas.

People who are not members experience it as Baha’is exalting their beliefs far above everyone else’s, while pretending to be posting as equals on an equal footing with followers of other religions.

Interesting thread!

I also had no idea about any of this, but it got me to do some googling around, and I found one case, from the dawn of widespread internet use over 20 years ago, where it seems people did get into trouble with the Bahai authorities for posting things on a mailing list called "talisman".

So the Bahai authorities relaxed about mailing lists and forums after this, is what you are saying, Jim?

Wurlitzer Oz said:

Interesting thread!

I also had no idea about any of this, but it got me to do some googling around, and I found one case, from the dawn of widespread internet use over 20 years ago, where it seems people did get into trouble with the Bahai authorities for posting things on a mailing list called "talisman".

So the Bahai authorities relaxed about mailing lists and forums after this, is what you are saying, Jim?

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Thanks for asking.

This is strictly my own personal opinion, and it mught be contrary to what most Baha’is think. Outside of some people’s imaginations, I don’t think that there have ever been any rules in the worldwide Baha’i Faith community about what views Baha’is can and can’t promote in Internet discussions. The only rules that I see are rules of conduct that apply to everything we do, including what we do in Internet discussions. Some of our rules are more strict than any forum rules, and some are less strict, but none of them are about what views we can and can’t promote.

Again, this is all strictly my own personal opinion, and it might be contrary to what most Baha’is think. One rule of condut that I see in Baha’i scriptures is not to promote our ideas and interests in any adversarial way. Especially not in campaigns of denunciation against other people. Breaking that rule might be part of what disqualified two people from the membership. That’s just my own personal opinion. I’ve never seen or heard of any message from the House of Justtce to the Baha’i community explaining why it disqualified three people from rhe membership.

Another rule that I see in Baha’i scriptures would exclude a person building a reputation as a source of knowledge and wisdom for Baha’is, then using that reputation to try to turn Baha’is away from doing what the House of Justice is calling for them to do. That might be part of what disqualified another person from the membership. Again, this is all strictly my own personal opinion. Those are just examples of what might have disqualified some people from the membership. I think that it was how they were promoting their views, not because of what those views were.

Wurlitzer Oz said:

Interesting thread!

I also had no idea about any of this, but it got me to do some googling around, and I found one case, from the dawn of widespread internet use over 20 years ago, where it seems people did get into trouble with the Bahai authorities for posting things on a mailing list called "talisman".

So the Bahai authorities relaxed about mailing lists and forums after this, is what you are saying, Jim?

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Some of those people were friends of mine, and I had a ringside seat for some of the online feuding. My personal view of it is that there was a conflict of interest between some authors and administrators in the worldwide Baha’i Faith community, and some of the authors thought that the House of Justice would be on their side against the administrators. When that failed, they started denouncing the House of Justice, and that led to online feuding in some Internet forums and discussion lists. One of the allegations against the House of Justice was that it was trying to censor and repress some of the views of the authors, and some other Baha’is started believing that. Personally I don’t see anything in Baha’i writings including messages from the House of Justice, telling us what views we can and can’t promote. I think that would be contrary to Bahá’u’lláh’s purposes and prescriptions, and to the purposes of the House of Justice.

Update on my thoughts about this topic:

I don’t think there are any rules in the worldwide Baha’i community about what views we can and can not promote in online discussions. I think that there are rules of conduct that apply to everything that we do including how we promote our ideas and interests, but none of the rules are about what views we can and can not promote

Sometimes some of us, when we are discussing our views in Internet discussions, will be stigmatized by others as not being true Baha’is or as violators of the Covenant, but I don’t think that is coming from Baha’i scriptures or from the House of Justice, the only institution that has the authority to say that. I’m seeing that now as part of our diversity, and trying to embrace it.

Thanks Jim. Please carry on.

Wurlitzer Oz said:

Thanks Jim. Please carry on.

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Thanks. I might have said all I want to say for now. It looks to me like some Baha’is have some views that some other Baha’is think are contrary to some fundamental Baha’i beliefs and teachings, and what the House of Justice has said about them. They think that it’s contrary to the Baha’i Covenant for Baha’is to post those views in Internet discussions, and sometimes they respond by saying or insinuating that the person is not a true Baha’i, or that the person is opposing the House of Justice. I think that has poisonous effects on discussions with and between Baha’is, and that it’s impeding human progress. Now I’m thinking of it as part of our diversity, and trying to embrace it. At the same time I still want try to help reduce and counteract the damage.

I’ve said this already, but I’m seeing it more clearly now. When people promoting and defending what they call “Baha’i beliefs,” stigmatize some other Baha’is as not true Baha’is or violators of the Covenant, that’s just their way of trying to defend their beliefs. That might not look any different from what I’ve already said, but it feels different to me. As a target of it myself, it’s taking me some time to learn how to think about it and respond to it.

So, once again: My point in this thread is that I don’t think that there are or ever have been any rules in the worldwide Baha’i Faith community about what views its members can and can not promote in Internet discussions. I see some rules of conduct that apply to how we promote our views, but no rules about what views we can and can not promote. I’ll go so far as to say that we can even promote views contrary to what God Himself says, without violating the letter or the spirit of His laws and prescriptions, if we do it in accordance with His rules of conduct.

Now I’m just talking to myself, trying to work things out, but in public because other people might get some ideas from it or have some ideas for me. It’s about what to do when people promoting what they call “Baha’i beliefs” persist in publicly branding me as not being a true Baha’i or as a dishonest and treacherous person. I’m trying now to embrace that as part of our diversity. I’ve learned fairly well to bring the discussion back on topic and not fall into contention with them. I’ve found some things from Baha’i writings for them to read that might be helpful to them. I’m wondering if there’s any more I can do to help create a more friendly environment for Baha’is whose views are being stigmatized. Maybe if I try discussing my own unpopular views some more, myself.

Part of what I was thinking of when I started this thread was what looks to me like a hostile environment in Internet discussions for some of the ideas and interests of most members of the worldwide Baha’i Faith community. I see part of that as being generated by the attitudes and behavior of a few people promoting and defending what they call “Baha’i beliefs.” I’m trying to embrace that now as part of our diversity, but I still want to try to help reduce and counteract the damage. One idea I have now is to try to learn how to discuss my views here that they are stigmatizing, without falling into contention myself. That might help other Baha’is who see their views being stigmatized to do the same. I’m thinking now of trying that with my views about homosexuality.

First I might start a thread in the “Same Faith Debates” forum, to discuss it with them if they want to, and let them vent or let off steam or whatever they want or need to do, before I try to discuss my views in a thread that’s open to everyone.

Jim said:

I’m a member of the Baha’i Faith. For more than 10 years, I’ve been saying in Internet discussions that I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against all homosexual relationships, or against marriage between two women or two men.

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Hello Jim.
I looked through my notes and can see thast there are various Bahai laws about homosexuality. Of course Homosexuality is a word which applies to both male and female 'same-sex' marriages and sexual relationships. I feel sure that these can be accessed in the Bahai writings but here is a basic intro:-

I. Homosexuality
1221. Acts of Immorality
1222. Homosexuality and Transsexuality
1223. Through Advice, Help of Doctors, and Prayer, Can Overcome this Handicap
1224. Bahá’í Law Protects and Strengthens Marriage
1225. The Question Should not be if a Practicing Homosexual Can be a Bahá’í, but as Such Can He Overcome His Problem Through the Teachings
1226. Recognizing the Divine Origin of the Sex Impulse in Man, Religion Teaches it Must Be Controlled
1227. We are Assured of the Guidance of God When We Make an Effort to Obey Him
1228. One Must Make an Effort to Resist Wayward Impulses When They Arise by Turning to the Sacred Writings to Divert One's Thoughts
1229. A Homosexual Relationship Subverts the Purpose of Human Life
1230. Homosexuality, Immorality and Adultery Are Forbidden in the Faith

oldbadger said:

Hello Jim.
I looked through my notes and can see thast there are various Bahai laws about homosexuality. Of course Homosexuality is a word which applies to both male and female 'same-sex' marriages and sexual relationships. I feel sure that these can be accessed in the Bahai writings but here is a basic intro:-

I. Homosexuality
1221. Acts of Immorality
1222. Homosexuality and Transsexuality
1223. Through Advice, Help of Doctors, and Prayer, Can Overcome this Handicap
1224. Bahá’í Law Protects and Strengthens Marriage
1225. The Question Should not be if a Practicing Homosexual Can be a Bahá’í, but as Such Can He Overcome His Problem Through the Teachings
1226. Recognizing the Divine Origin of the Sex Impulse in Man, Religion Teaches it Must Be Controlled
1227. We are Assured of the Guidance of God When We Make an Effort to Obey Him
1228. One Must Make an Effort to Resist Wayward Impulses When They Arise by Turning to the Sacred Writings to Divert One's Thoughts
1229. A Homosexual Relationship Subverts the Purpose of Human Life
1230. Homosexuality, Immorality and Adultery Are Forbidden in the Faith

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Thank you.

My purpose in this thread was not to discuss homosexuality. It’s about what I see as a hostile environment in some Internet discussions for some of the ideas and interests of most members of the worldwide Baha’i Faith community. I was just using homosexuality as an example of views of mine that are sometimes stigmatized by other members.

Jim said:

Thank you.

My purpose in this thread was not to discuss homosexuality. It’s about what I see as a hostile environment in some Internet discussions for some of the ideas and interests of most members of the worldwide Baha’i Faith community. I was just using homosexuality as an example of views of mine that are sometimes stigmatized by other members.

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I did not discuss it, Jim. I just answered your point.