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Religion Has Nothing to Do With Science

Religion has nothing to do with science.

  • True

    Votes: 19 43.2%
  • Untrue

    Votes: 25 56.8%

  • Total voters
    44

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Religion and science are definitely opposed.
And yet much of the fundamental work today in e.g. particle physics, cosmology, chemistry, and modern physics more generally relies foundationally on mathematical structures and a corresponding view of the mathematical formulations of the laws of nature that was inherited from religion and theology:
"The orthodox view of the nature of the laws of physics contains a long list of tacitly assumed properties...It is not hard to see where this picture of physical laws comes from: it is inherited directly from monotheism, which asserts that a rational being designed the universe according to a set of perfect laws...Clearly, then, the orthodox concept of laws of physics derives directly from theology. Indeed, the "theological model" of the laws of physics is so ingrained in scientific thinking that it is taken for granted." (pp. 89-91)
Davies, P. (). Universe from bit. In P. Davies & N. H. Gregersen (Eds.) Information and the Nature of Reality (pp. 83-117). Cambridge University Press.

Of course the above is mostly about the conception of the nature of natural/physical laws within the physical sciences rather than their mathematical structures. It turns out that for much of modern physics, the relationship here is more direct. From astrophysics to condensed matter physics to quantum field theories and beyond, the ubiquity of field theories (classical, statistical, and quantum) are now so ingrained in many physical sciences that especially in particle physics theories don't just rely on the Lagrangian formulation, they are Lagrangians, which explains Kane's comment in the introduction to his text:
"In practice, “theory” and “Lagrangian” mean the same thing."
Kane, G. (2017). Modern Elementary Particle Physics (2nd Ed.). Cambridge University Press.
Both the Hamiltonian formulation (whence comes the foundation of quantum mechanics and most of classical physics as well) and the Lagrangian as well as other basic frameworks relied on in physics, chemistry, cosmology, etc., are based upon the principle of (least) action. This principle originated in the work of Maupertuis, but it was really more fully developed by Euler:
"Euler maintained the theological view of Maupertuis and held that phenomena could be explained not only in terms of causes but also in terms of purpose. He believed that, since the universe was the creation of a perfect God, nothing could happen in nature that did not exhibit this maximum or minimum property." p.167
Cushing, J. T. (1998). Philosophical Concepts in Physics: The Historical Relation between Philosophy and Scientific Theories. Cambridge University Press.
The action principle that is so fundamental not only to our best modern theories and frameworks in the physical sciences but to deriving and testing possible extensions or new theories was developed, like the conception of physical laws, by using theological principles to deduce the "correct" manner according to which the universe must operate assuming a perfect God.
Now, neither I nor anybody I have ever encountered has ever either thought about anything related to theology when making use of Lagrangians or Hamiltonians. Likewise, current views about the nature of physical laws do not trouble many practicing researchers (either theorists or experimentalists) and when they do it tends to be over whether or not e.g., mathematical elegance can lead us astray or whether the group theory that encodes symmetry should take precedence for so many decades over and against empirical evidence.
The point is not that somehow modern physics or chemistry or physical science more generally in anyway relies on religious thought. Rather, it is that even today we can see the results of a previous dependence. Further, if the science and religion were so opposed then one must wonder how it could be that modern physics could have developed (from Newton to Euler and beyond) based directly or indirectly on theological presuppositions.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Religion and science are definitely opposed. Science is testable and falsifiable. You can't test religious claims in the lab. Science is evidence based, religion is faith based. Faith is defined as believing something with no evidence or believing something despite the presence of contrary evidence. If you believe that religion and science are compatible, then I thing you want to outgrow religion but you're fighting it.
This is not the definition of faith. And you have not given a definition of science.

If you apply proper definitions of both, you will find it harder to justify the notion that religion and science are opposed.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
And yet much of the fundamental work today in e.g. particle physics, cosmology, chemistry, and modern physics more generally relies foundationally on mathematical structures and a corresponding view of the mathematical formulations of the laws of nature that was inherited from religion and theology:
"The orthodox view of the nature of the laws of physics contains a long list of tacitly assumed properties...It is not hard to see where this picture of physical laws comes from: it is inherited directly from monotheism, which asserts that a rational being designed the universe according to a set of perfect laws...Clearly, then, the orthodox concept of laws of physics derives directly from theology. Indeed, the "theological model" of the laws of physics is so ingrained in scientific thinking that it is taken for granted." (pp. 89-91)
Davies, P. (). Universe from bit. In P. Davies & N. H. Gregersen (Eds.) Information and the Nature of Reality (pp. 83-117). Cambridge University Press.

Of course the above is mostly about the conception of the nature of natural/physical laws within the physical sciences rather than their mathematical structures. It turns out that for much of modern physics, the relationship here is more direct. From astrophysics to condensed matter physics to quantum field theories and beyond, the ubiquity of field theories (classical, statistical, and quantum) are now so ingrained in many physical sciences that especially in particle physics theories don't just rely on the Lagrangian formulation, they are Lagrangians, which explains Kane's comment in the introduction to his text:
"In practice, “theory” and “Lagrangian” mean the same thing."
Kane, G. (2017). Modern Elementary Particle Physics (2nd Ed.). Cambridge University Press.
Both the Hamiltonian formulation (whence comes the foundation of quantum mechanics and most of classical physics as well) and the Lagrangian as well as other basic frameworks relied on in physics, chemistry, cosmology, etc., are based upon the principle of (least) action. This principle originated in the work of Maupertuis, but it was really more fully developed by Euler:
"Euler maintained the theological view of Maupertuis and held that phenomena could be explained not only in terms of causes but also in terms of purpose. He believed that, since the universe was the creation of a perfect God, nothing could happen in nature that did not exhibit this maximum or minimum property." p.167
Cushing, J. T. (1998). Philosophical Concepts in Physics: The Historical Relation between Philosophy and Scientific Theories. Cambridge University Press.
The action principle that is so fundamental not only to our best modern theories and frameworks in the physical sciences but to deriving and testing possible extensions or new theories was developed, like the conception of physical laws, by using theological principles to deduce the "correct" manner according to which the universe must operate assuming a perfect God.
Now, neither I nor anybody I have ever encountered has ever either thought about anything related to theology when making use of Lagrangians or Hamiltonians. Likewise, current views about the nature of physical laws do not trouble many practicing researchers (either theorists or experimentalists) and when they do it tends to be over whether or not e.g., mathematical elegance can lead us astray or whether the group theory that encodes symmetry should take precedence for so many decades over and against empirical evidence.
The point is not that somehow modern physics or chemistry or physical science more generally in anyway relies on religious thought. Rather, it is that even today we can see the results of a previous dependence. Further, if the science and religion were so opposed then one must wonder how it could be that modern physics could have developed (from Newton to Euler and beyond) based directly or indirectly on theological presuppositions.

IF it is even so that religions did more good than
harm to the development of systemic scientific thinking,
religion has been left far behind and functions now
primarily as a drag, and a repository of superdtition, &
regressive magical thinking.

Newton btw for all he did well was certainly an inteloectual
victim to the deeply integral pattern of magical thinking whivh
so mars Chridtianity and other religions to this day.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
And yet much of the fundamental work today in e.g. particle physics, cosmology, chemistry, and modern physics more generally relies foundationally on mathematical structures and a corresponding view of the mathematical formulations of the laws of nature that was inherited from religion and theology:
"The orthodox view of the nature of the laws of physics contains a long list of tacitly assumed properties...It is not hard to see where this picture of physical laws comes from: it is inherited directly from monotheism, which asserts that a rational being designed the universe according to a set of perfect laws...Clearly, then, the orthodox concept of laws of physics derives directly from theology. Indeed, the "theological model" of the laws of physics is so ingrained in scientific thinking that it is taken for granted." (pp. 89-91)
Davies, P. (). Universe from bit. In P. Davies & N. H. Gregersen (Eds.) Information and the Nature of Reality (pp. 83-117). Cambridge University Press.

Of course the above is mostly about the conception of the nature of natural/physical laws within the physical sciences rather than their mathematical structures. It turns out that for much of modern physics, the relationship here is more direct. From astrophysics to condensed matter physics to quantum field theories and beyond, the ubiquity of field theories (classical, statistical, and quantum) are now so ingrained in many physical sciences that especially in particle physics theories don't just rely on the Lagrangian formulation, they are Lagrangians, which explains Kane's comment in the introduction to his text:
"In practice, “theory” and “Lagrangian” mean the same thing."
Kane, G. (2017). Modern Elementary Particle Physics (2nd Ed.). Cambridge University Press.
Both the Hamiltonian formulation (whence comes the foundation of quantum mechanics and most of classical physics as well) and the Lagrangian as well as other basic frameworks relied on in physics, chemistry, cosmology, etc., are based upon the principle of (least) action. This principle originated in the work of Maupertuis, but it was really more fully developed by Euler:
"Euler maintained the theological view of Maupertuis and held that phenomena could be explained not only in terms of causes but also in terms of purpose. He believed that, since the universe was the creation of a perfect God, nothing could happen in nature that did not exhibit this maximum or minimum property." p.167
Cushing, J. T. (1998). Philosophical Concepts in Physics: The Historical Relation between Philosophy and Scientific Theories. Cambridge University Press.
The action principle that is so fundamental not only to our best modern theories and frameworks in the physical sciences but to deriving and testing possible extensions or new theories was developed, like the conception of physical laws, by using theological principles to deduce the "correct" manner according to which the universe must operate assuming a perfect God.
Now, neither I nor anybody I have ever encountered has ever either thought about anything related to theology when making use of Lagrangians or Hamiltonians. Likewise, current views about the nature of physical laws do not trouble many practicing researchers (either theorists or experimentalists) and when they do it tends to be over whether or not e.g., mathematical elegance can lead us astray or whether the group theory that encodes symmetry should take precedence for so many decades over and against empirical evidence.
The point is not that somehow modern physics or chemistry or physical science more generally in anyway relies on religious thought. Rather, it is that even today we can see the results of a previous dependence. Further, if the science and religion were so opposed then one must wonder how it could be that modern physics could have developed (from Newton to Euler and beyond) based directly or indirectly on theological presuppositions.
That is an extremely interesting and insightful post.

Much to ponder.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
I'm going to take the position that religion has nothing to do with science.

Do you disagree?
Why?

As science states
The God Particle Explained Simply - Your Time Travel Experience

Religion states God is a philosophy of the stone.

Science says that it owns male human God knowledge as a male and as a human, so he says he knows what God is.

Human philosophy said it never knew God.
15 Bible verses about Not Knowing God

I would question, if a male says he knows God is a particle, then he would say I know God. And that male would also say because I am Jesus, and lots of science males claim that Jesus saved their life.

Only Jesus says the scientist knew God.
83 Bible verses about Knowing God, Effects Of

If I was a natural spiritual human, which I think I am, I would say that religion knowing God is correct, for we do not exist living on a particle.

Their claim God is science says that they can take that particle, change it and then own all the power in the Universe.

As a human I would question what a male in his mind truly believes about getting the Universal power from the Universe as a male living on a stone body!

As a male claiming he will receive it by his science knowledge.

I would say to science if they say they know God is a particle, and religious science says God is stone, isn't God the stone just a mass of particles held together in fusion by cold radiation mass?

And I would say didn't the male life of Jesus get to know Satan, attack by a burning condition on his living body?

And I would also say, so science claiming that they know God is a particle would mean to get God from the body of Earth, as the only place where physical mass is accessed physically would be to heat up God cold radiation and release God the stone.

Why I say and agree that a religious God, a philosophy has nothing at all to do with the science God belief.
 

Marcello115

New Member
I'm going to take the position that religion has nothing to do with science.

Do you disagree?
Why?

Religion doesn’t technically have anything to do with science although the Bible isn’t a science book it is accurate when it mentions matters of science. The Bible contains scientific matters surprisingly. For example Job 26:7 “The earth is suspended in empty space” ... like many people in the past believed the earth was supported by an animal and there is more biblical text that talks about scientific matters.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Religion has nothing to do with science.

This is a very bold statement ... "NOTHING"
Religion is about many things

Do you maybe mean "believing in God" has nothing to do with Science?


Science, not the origin of self, human or the original thinker of natural bodies, a human said that it no longer believes in God.

What the AI machine male conscious feed back historic conscious attack says.

Science got told by science that science did not believe in God....when a male as a natural self called O Earth his science God entity, the philosophy of the stone..for stone has to exist first to do science, machine.

The science of God therefore argues and says, I told everyone that the beginning was with God, on the face of the deep....so you cannot argue against me.

Science that says it is not with God, as nothing believers, are the minds who wanted God to become nothing....and claimed that the Mother, the Great deep was the holiest body....with nothing in it...coldest body and deepest body....the largest known infinite mass state.

So science using MATHS said it was HOLY O maths, a Mother theme...…..for it was relative to the removal of God by MASS O....so Satanists claimed that to put God into a sink hole, physical removal of dropping God into its cold spatial well...when trying to speed up God in the gas heavenly body, to trigger mass extinction, real.

For it is how he did it originally as a pyramid and pyramid science.

For his MATHS/MASS O was only ever to copy the first science act....he was never copying the relativity of the God science natural history ever.

So males in science owned an argument in theory about what information they followed….so said that the Mother of God stories were not Holy by conditions of their natural science awareness.

Always in that theme were against the practices of science....for the Holy Mother theme of God said that it attacked and sacrificed natural life of the self.

Natural humans spiritually never used title...they just taught live naturally and be spiritual in that context...what I followed as a self study.

Then in life attack I was forced to relate advice to natural self, because of what science was causing.

I never believed in the God stories, but had to study them to be self advised.

Jesus was said to have chastised the believers of using the MATHS O Mother of God science theories...and he was not actually chastising his human Mother, he was chastising the users of the information.

Jesus was an actual after the event written story of scientific proof of attack on self life.

Factually a human would say if I were to believe in Mother of God, then space, extreme cold holds the O STONE body in holiness...as a teacher.

If I wanted to argue that theme...I would use female Mathematical quotes...for mass removal.
Romans 16:17
I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.

(John 2:4), Greek, Jesus’ question is “Ti emoi kai soi?” The phrase was used to ask of the connection.

Translating from a conscious human studier/research of science conditions, always will be incorporated thinking as a conscious self...when what is studied is not conscious.

So the theme a male study of his natural life attacked and sacrificed in Temple science as a thesis after the fact said to self as a thinker......
“What business do we have with each other?” Or, in less formal terms, “What does this have to do with me?” (ESV) or “Why do you involve me?”

For when you apply a thesis/story after the fact it involves a lot of human male questions and answers to self, as an explanation about why and how did his life be harmed.

And it is exactly what he was talking about the science term about space being a womb, and its relationship from science to the community as a teaching.

For if humans in life do not know, nor understand science, not in any form of scientific or theosophic interpretations, it had to be taught as close to natural human every day understanding as possible....to spiriutalize its evilness.

Today a science community would ask the ancient science self....for what actual reasons did you compare a human female natural womb...to space...when in science space is space as space, by conditions of a male worded applied teaching?

Which then brings to the attention of any reader....because you got told the WORD is one only and HOLY....and if you were not using it correctly, then it is proven you were not using natural WORDS correctly.

For natural never owned science....and science pretending with machine that they owned natural history is about a big a liar as a male ever was.
 
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