Have them make for me a tabernacle...

stvdv said:

Especially in Churches claiming "my way is the highway for all; all other ways lead to Hell"

There I feel more criticized, attacked, judged, crucified, been send to Hell (no return) then everywhere else.

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I wouldn't say especially.

I'm sorry you have had such a negative experience. Most people feel loved by churches.

Gerry said:

I see the typical person as having, lets say, 10 units of space in their mind.
I see religion as being the opposite of God. And opposites don’t mix.
So for every unit of a person’s mind devoted to religion is 1 less unit available for God.

Joshua 1:9 Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.

Deuteronomy 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

Isaiah 41:10 Fear thou not; for I am with thee

Zephaniah 3:17 The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

Perhaps the “young people” know something? What if religion is a man made device to derail people from finding the Lord? Just asking.

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You say that religion is the opposite of God, but then you go on to quote the Tanakh, the Bible, a religious text. In the Bible, God creates a religion for the People of Israel, giving them a religious tabernacle/temple, religious days, religious obligations... How is religion the opposite of God if it is God who made a religion? Sorry, I just can't agree with your assertion.

IndigoChild5559 said:

I run into so many many young people who feel no need to attend a house of worship. God is everywhere, they tell me. They don't need to go to a church to be with him. (At least that is one of a great many reasons they give for not attending.)

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And you are the judge of their relationship with God based on this small interaction with them?

IndigoChild5559 said:

I remember my Rabbi replying to this by quoting some sage or other, "Yes, God is everywhere, and is everywhere forgotten."

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And you are so sure that these young people have "forgotten" God? How would you know?

I, of course, do not attend church services, and see absolutely no need. I have gone in the past, to appease others in my family, but at no time was there anything said or done there that was in any way compelling. The only thing I ever felt was this sense of awe at the foolishness of it all. You can think whatever you want of that - that I am lying, or I am evil - I really, really don't care. It is 100% the truth. Shenanigans. That's all I ever saw in any of it. The entire time. Not one moment in which a Bible-themed or inspired sermon gave me even a moment's pause. So much wrong with that text. So much wrong with the way it is so staunchly and blindly supported and preached from. It is all a huge, sad joke.

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

I believe I did. Explain why not.

Good-Ole-Rebel

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Never mind. We live in different dimensions.

dybmh said:

I guess it depends on the definition of religious. What does religious mean to you?

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It can be difficult to define religious, since what is religious in one religion looks different than what is different in another religion. A religious Orthodox Jew looks different than a religious non-denominational Christian which looks different from a religious Buddhist or Lakota, for example.

Roughly, I'm going to say that religious means devoted to becoming a more righteous person, a more virtuous person, a person after God's own heart, a person walking the path that God has for him... by means of
1. prayer and relationship with God
2. study of the sacred texts
3. right behavior and love of fellow man
4. acts of devotion to God in whatever that person's religious tradition is (such as taking communion, going on retreats, fasting, etc.)

IndigoChild5559 said:

It can be difficult to define religious, since what is religious in one religion looks different than what is different in another religion. A religious Orthodox Jew looks different than a religious non-denominational Christian which looks different from a religious Buddhist or Lakota, for example.

Roughly, I'm going to say that religious means devoted to becoming a more righteous person, a more virtuous person, a person after God's own heart, a person walking the path that God has for him... by means of
1. prayer and relationship with God
2. study of the sacred texts
3. right behavior and love of fellow man
4. acts of devotion to God in whatever that person's religious tradition is (such as taking communion, going on retreats, fasting, etc.)

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That's awesome! I would call that spiritual...

How would you define spiritual? Just curious, if you don't mind me asking...

IndigoChild5559 said:

However, I'd like to say that even in this sort of view, there is still more of what I'm calling the activation of the sacred than you are giving credit to. The Lakota that I knew had definite sacred rituals that they used. They did have especially sacred places such as the Black Hills.

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I don't think I deny your idea of 'activation,' certainly conversing with nature can take a little effort, at times. The difference though, is that I don't think sacred places outdoors are looking to consolidate divine energies into human containment. On the contrary, perhaps the sacred space might be kept in nature with the goal of trying to illuminate the great wideness of the divine, by setting a beacon out there to illumine the beyond of the beyond of the beyond. Building based spirituality on the other hand, seems to want to encase god into a small box, comparatively. I suppose I see it as a valid and reasonable impulse as well, since we humans tend to want that sort of control on a mechanical / scientific level with most of the things we undertake to properly behold

I'm not against organization either, it's just that it doesn't exist on my local cultural level. If the local townspeople were having a fire dance right now in the 30 degree weather, drumming and chanting and painting themselves with blue woad like the ancient celts, why I'd get out and go join them. But instead, my street is lined with prudish Lutheran churches, and people who would call the authorities to quell such a get together. Perhaps it follows that Abrahamic religion is in pretty close proximity with our culture's general laws, being more instilled into them than meets the eye on the surface level. Nonetheless, they can all worship how they want to, I'll do my own thing meanwhile

I also kind of think there might be more of the 'outdoors' in Abrahamic faith that meets the eye, thinking back to certain biblical situations, and despite your verse about the tabernacle. Didn't Abraham himself have a lot of spiritualish moments outside, and Moses, and Jesus, all of those characters seemed like they spent a lot of time outdoors. Probably worth a thread of some kind, what was the original biblical perception of the spirituality that runs through the experience nature. Did the general culture perceive 'a reed swaying in the breeze' as something purely mundane, or might they have associated a spiritual interaction with different elements and organisms

IndigoChild5559 said:

I wouldn't say especially.

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I said especially, because I do not believe there is a lot of spirit (hence everywhere forgotten) when priests arrogantly belittle other (non) faiths

IndigoChild5559 said:

I'm sorry you have had such a negative experience. Most people feel loved by churches.

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There are 2.4 billion Christians, so yes of course most (2.4 billion) feel loved by people in churches, because they are all the same (Christians)

But how can a visitor feel loved if the core teaching is:
"Jesus is the only way for all. All other religions/Atheism are wrong, And go to Hell"?
You explain this to me. And by the way, I am not the only one who experiences this. I did quite some research.
I wish it were only me having this experience, then the negative effect was minimal.

Outwardly they act of course friendly; and give even tea and a cookie. But I rather had this mutual respectful human feeling regarding faith
Inwardly they just think/judge about others like "a lost soul, who believes in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Atheism, Humanism"

1 good thing, when I asked ca. 6 different priests, at least they all admitted, that I was destined to go to Hell (so they were not hypocritical about it).
I did tell them that was very arrogant and belittling to say and believe. And they said "what can I do, this is what Jesus teaches"
I even asked one priest "so you don't care if you hurt others; and if you kill someone it's okay IF done with the Bible?"
He even said "Yes". I told him straight up "I will never talk to you again; I don't let others kill me (or my faith)"

There is more craziness going on in Churches than most are aware of.

But don't feel sorry for me, better feel sorry for all the judgmental Christians
Everytime a Christian judges me, Jesus comes closer to me
So actually they do me a huge favor

dybmh said:

That's awesome! I would call that spiritual...

How would you define spiritual? Just curious, if you don't mind me asking...

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Spiritual has traditionally been a synonym for religious. It has only been in the last couple decades that people have tried to draw a distinction. I think this came about mostly because of the ridiculous evangelical Christian fad in the 1970s to say that Christianity is not a religion and that religion and religiosity is bad -- these locked onto "spiritual" as a word to use instead of religious.

I don't like how "spiritual" has been co-opted by people who dumb it down to mean "I believe in God but basically don't wan't to be bothered with much else." That's certainly not what spiritual has traditionally meant.

spir·it·u·al
/ˈspiriCH(o͞o)əl/
Learn to pronounce
adjective

1. relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.
   "I'm responsible for his spiritual welfare"
   
2. relating to religion or religious belief.
   "the tribe's spiritual leader"

Audie said:

Never mind. We live in different dimensions.

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Yes, I understand that.

But I am still interested in your question. Why did I say gifts 'of the Holy Spirit' rather than 'by the Holy Spirit'? It was not a decision that I made to do so. It is just the way I wrote it. I'm not sure that there is any great difference.

But, if I were pushed to find a difference, I would say 'of the Holy Spirit' speaks more to the Holy Spirit actively present and working through the believer. Whereas 'by the Holy Spirit' perhaps could be viewed as the believer using the gift that was given him by the Holy Spirit.

Good-Ole-Rebel

IndigoChild5559 said:

Spiritual has traditionally been a synonym for religious. It has only been in the last couple decades that people have tried to draw a distinction. I think this came about mostly because of the ridiculous evangelical Christian fad in the 1970s to say that Christianity is not a religion and that religion and religiosity is bad -- these locked onto "spiritual" as a word to use instead of religious.

I don't like how "spiritual" has been co-opted by people who dumb it down to mean "I believe in God but basically don't wan't to be bothered with much else." That's certainly not what spiritual has traditionally meant.

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Ok, thank you. Now I understand why you said you don't buy into it. Also, I wasn't aware of this 1970s fad, so I think I misspoke a tiny bit by accidentally using the same jargon.

Here's what I think, going back to original question you posed in the OP: ( apologies for the multi-paragraph essay, but, the question "why kids don't want a synagogue in America is a rather large subject. )

Young people don't have a compelling reason to believe in God in the typical Judeo-Christian manner. This being the masculine, aloof, authoritarian, God. However they are tuned in to connection, justice, and truth. To me this is a form of religious/spiritual belief, but it's more akin to recognizing the divine presence ( Shechinah ). In my local area ( urban PNW ), young people are involved in Churches. Young people seem to like it. Synagogue? Not so much. But social action is huge around here among Jewish teens. Kids are involved, want to take charge, and conquer the world's problems. I like to perceive this as a spiritual pursuit because it recognizes that each person's choices have impact that is not easily measured or defined. It's faith. Faith that choices matter, that words matter, that feelings matter.

Being a member of a congregation can be compelling for young people, if it encourages social action, if it highlights an interconnected world, and if it enhances the goodwill and good feelings towards all people. Young people like those things. And they want to participate in those things. But they don't need a congregation to do it, they have friend groups. And they don't need to worship God or be devoted to God in order to accomplish those goals. The divine presence is already close, and I think they can feel that in their friendships, their feeling of interconnection, and their desire for justice.

Beyond this, that a congregation is unneeded, many Jewish congregations seem to be disconnected from the "spirit" of the ritual. And I think young people can see this like a bright blinking neon sign. To me, this authenticity-radar is a good sign. I think it's intuitive, and I define that as spiritual. If the ritual is hollow, why would a young person want to participate. Is it a camp-fire sing along? Yes it feels good to sing traditional melodies in an ancient language among a family and friends. And yes it feels good to be "in the know" and to be knowledgeable about the customs traditions and practices, but all of that is window dressing for young people. It makes the ritual false and foolish. If it's not real, why do it? That's a simple question which I think deserves a compelling answer if young people are expected to participate. In my experience most of the leaders and congregants in American Jewish synagogues aren't able to answer this question in a way that is an invitation for young people to participate.

Perhaps ask yourself, how would the clergy or your fellow congregants answer the question: Why do we say Kaddish? And then ask yourself if the answer is an invitation for a young person to participate or is it discouraging. No matter how I try to answer that question myself, it's not something I would expect to be inviting to a young person in modern America. However, when they see me pouring over texts, or having a heady conversation with another adult about some deep religious/spiritual subject... they want to participate. Why? because it's real. It's role modeling. They see that it's real for me, and my friends, and that is what's compelling. It has to be real.

If a young person comes into a synagogue and sees all the trappings of the ritual but can tell instinctively that the people participating don't actually believe in what they are doing, I say that this is a good thing. It's good for young people to be able to intuit authenticity in the manner that a ritual is executed. And to me it is a sign of spiritual ( possibly not religious ) potential. Spiritual, but not religious? Yes, I'm sorry for using those words again. But hopefully now I've been more clear about what I meant by that originally.

So there's two major factors at play, IMO. 1) Young people don't need an Authoritarian Aloof God, they already acknowledge and interact with the Divine Presence which is close and doesn't require worship or devotion. And this renders communal activities optional or unneeded. 2) If they are part of a congregation, their religious education needs to be from teachers who really believe in God, and really believe in the efficacy of the ritual or else it becomes hollow, and false, and that discourages participation. Both of these, to me, are signs that a young person has spiritual/religious potential, but they don't require a congregation to actualize it.

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

Yes, I understand that.

But I am still interested in your question. Why did I say gifts 'of the Holy Spirit' rather than 'by the Holy Spirit'? It was not a decision that I made to do so. It is just the way I wrote it. I'm not sure that there is any great difference.

But, if I were pushed to find a difference, I would say 'of the Holy Spirit' speaks more to the Holy Spirit actively present and working through the believer. Whereas 'by the Holy Spirit' perhaps could be viewed as the believer using the gift that was given him by the Holy Spirit.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Click to expand...

I hear that odd construction from Christians,
wonder what it means, while doubting it actually
means anything other than sounding special.

“Used of god “ is another such.

Anyway, thx.

IndigoChild5559 said:

I run into so many many young people who feel no need to attend a house of worship. ...

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The dvar is lovely but, in my opinion, far from compelling.

Rather than suggesting that these "many many young [and not so young] people" are wrong and misguided, perhaps our houses of worship should seek ways to become more relevant.

IndigoChild5559 said:

I run into so many many young people who feel no need to attend a house of worship. God is everywhere, they tell me. They don't need to go to a church to be with him. (At least that is one of a great many reasons they give for not attending.)

I remember my Rabbi replying to this by quoting some sage or other, "Yes, God is everywhere, and is everywhere forgotten."

Human beings have a problem with sameness. After a while,we begin to tune it out, to take it for granted. It stops affecting us. It is true that God is everywhere. But we are unable to sustain that sense of teh sacredness of his presence everywhere. Who really thinks of God when they are changing the baby's diaper or working on their car or pour over the books an hour after the office has closed? A Zen master perhaps, after years of cultivation. But certainly not the average Joe.

Sometimes Joe will have moments where the sense of the sacred will come crashing through, but he can never control that.

No, for Joe Sixpack to experience a sense of the sacred on anything like a regular basis, he has to psychologically set a portion of time or space or whatever apart for God, and designate it as sacred by means of treating it differently.

God understands this psychology. Indeed, God allowed it to evolve in us and said, It is good. And so of course God himself works with it. Oh of course, there's nothing wrong with becoming the sort of zen master than can experience the sacred in washing dishes. I'm simply saying that God in his wisdom gave instructions for the other 99%.

And so the Torah gives commands for setting apart from the profane, for making of sacred time, sacred places, sacred objects, even sacred people.

Getting back to my Rabbi's remark, "God is everyone, and is everywhere forgotten..." God's answer is, "And let them make Me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them." Exodus 25:8 Obviously God already dwelt among us. It doesn't mean that he wasn't already there. It means that we would EXPERIENCE him as being there in a way that we otherwise would not.

My dear friends, it makes a difference to go to a house of God, and worship him there, with a faith community. It just does. It is our psychology. It is how our brains work. You can deny it. You can say that God doesn't need you there (and you would be right). But YOU need it. It is just as important for you to have a Sanctuary to worship God as it was for the ancient Israelites. You are not so different as you let yourself believe.

I rejoiced when they said unto me: 'Let us go unto the house of the LORD. Psalm 122:1

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At the House of the Lord are believers for fellowship and encouragement. We need to "go somewhere" IMHO to gather as both Bible testaments explain.

IndigoChild5559 said:

You say that religion is the opposite of God, but then you go on to quote the Tanakh, the Bible, a religious text. In the Bible, God creates a religion for the People of Israel, giving them a religious tabernacle/temple, religious days, religious obligations... How is religion the opposite of God if it is God who made a religion? Sorry, I just can't agree with your assertion.

Click to expand...

Ouch.
You consider the Bible a religious text?
How scary.
I don’t see religion mentioned in the Bible.
It’s the word of God addressed to me from God. To me. From my God.

People, who have the desire to control other people, created religion.
Religion is a man made thing, just like a car.

The word of God is absolutely the opposite of religion.
The word of God is absolute perfection, in every letter.
Can you say that about religion?

I can relate to your last sentence though.
It will be impossible for us to agree.

IndigoChild5559 said:

I run into so many many young people who feel no need to attend a house of worship. God is everywhere, they tell me. They don't need to go to a church to be with him. (At least that is one of a great many reasons they give for not attending.)
I remember my Rabbi replying to this by quoting some sage or other, "Yes, God is everywhere, and is everywhere forgotten."
Human beings have a problem with sameness. After a while,we begin to tune it out, to take it for granted. It stops affecting us. It is true that God is everywhere. But we are unable to sustain that sense of teh sacredness of his presence everywhere. Who really thinks of God when they are changing the baby's diaper or working on their car or pour over the books an hour after the office has closed? A Zen master perhaps, after years of cultivation. But certainly not the average Joe.
Sometimes Joe will have moments where the sense of the sacred will come crashing through, but he can never control that.
No, for Joe Sixpack to experience a sense of the sacred on anything like a regular basis, he has to psychologically set a portion of time or space or whatever apart for God, and designate it as sacred by means of treating it differently.
God understands this psychology. Indeed, God allowed it to evolve in us and said, It is good. And so of course God himself works with it. Oh of course, there's nothing wrong with becoming the sort of zen master than can experience the sacred in washing dishes. I'm simply saying that God in his wisdom gave instructions for the other 99%.
And so the Torah gives commands for setting apart from the profane, for making of sacred time, sacred places, sacred objects, even sacred people.
Getting back to my Rabbi's remark, "God is everyone, and is everywhere forgotten..." God's answer is, "And let them make Me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them." Exodus 25:8 Obviously God already dwelt among us. It doesn't mean that he wasn't already there. It means that we would EXPERIENCE him as being there in a way that we otherwise would not.
My dear friends, it makes a difference to go to a house of God, and worship him there, with a faith community. It just does. It is our psychology. It is how our brains work. You can deny it. You can say that God doesn't need you there (and you would be right). But YOU need it. It is just as important for you to have a Sanctuary to worship God as it was for the ancient Israelites. You are not so different as you let yourself believe.
I rejoiced when they said unto me: 'Let us go unto the house of the LORD. Psalms 122:1

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And, I also find Psalms 122:8-9 does say ' Let us go into the house of the LORD (Tetragrammaton)'
Sad to say there are false clergy (dressed in sheep's clothing ) who seat them selves in the 'temple' (tabernacle/dwelling) of God (houses of worship) as if they are God when in reality they are anti-God.
- 2 Thessalonians 2:4

dybmh said:

That's awesome! I would call that spiritual...
How would you define spiritual? Just curious, if you don't mind me asking...

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... and I find a nice contrast between the physical/fleshy with the spiritual person is found at Galatians 5:19-23

Audie said:

I hear that odd construction from Christians,
wonder what it means, while doubting it actually
means anything other than sounding special.

“Used of god “ is another such.

Anyway, thx.

Click to expand...

Quite welcome.

Good-Ole-Rebel

IndigoChild5559 said:

the sort of zen master than can experience the sacred in washing dishes. I'm simply saying that God in his wisdom gave instructions for the other 99%.

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I think perhaps 30% to maybe as much as 60% can get into a good state of being just washing dishes, even blissful, even returning to themselves. Getting closer to God.

For millions, tens of millions in just the U.S., if a church feels it is only form/rituals without transcendence, they can do better. But fortunately, many churches today have a good deal of transcendence going on. They need merely read aloud some psalms and some gospel, to get that.

IndigoChild5559 said:

Sometimes Joe will have moments where the sense of the sacred will come crashing through, but he can never control that.

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We are to love God with all of our hearts, and all of our minds, and all of our souls, and all of our strength, and if one does, then the amazing happens, on and on.

IndigoChild5559 said:

I run into so many many young people who feel no need to attend a house of worship. God is everywhere, they tell me. They don't need to go to a church to be with him. (At least that is one of a great many reasons they give for not attending.)

I remember my Rabbi replying to this by quoting some sage or other, "Yes, God is everywhere, and is everywhere forgotten."

Human beings have a problem with sameness. After a while,we begin to tune it out, to take it for granted. It stops affecting us. It is true that God is everywhere. But we are unable to sustain that sense of teh sacredness of his presence everywhere. Who really thinks of God when they are changing the baby's diaper or working on their car or pour over the books an hour after the office has closed? A Zen master perhaps, after years of cultivation. But certainly not the average Joe.

Sometimes Joe will have moments where the sense of the sacred will come crashing through, but he can never control that.

No, for Joe Sixpack to experience a sense of the sacred on anything like a regular basis, he has to psychologically set a portion of time or space or whatever apart for God, and designate it as sacred by means of treating it differently.

God understands this psychology. Indeed, God allowed it to evolve in us and said, It is good. And so of course God himself works with it. Oh of course, there's nothing wrong with becoming the sort of zen master than can experience the sacred in washing dishes. I'm simply saying that God in his wisdom gave instructions for the other 99%.

And so the Torah gives commands for setting apart from the profane, for making of sacred time, sacred places, sacred objects, even sacred people.

Getting back to my Rabbi's remark, "God is everyone, and is everywhere forgotten..." God's answer is, "And let them make Me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them." Exodus 25:8 Obviously God already dwelt among us. It doesn't mean that he wasn't already there. It means that we would EXPERIENCE him as being there in a way that we otherwise would not.

My dear friends, it makes a difference to go to a house of God, and worship him there, with a faith community. It just does. It is our psychology. It is how our brains work. You can deny it. You can say that God doesn't need you there (and you would be right). But YOU need it. It is just as important for you to have a Sanctuary to worship God as it was for the ancient Israelites. You are not so different as you let yourself believe.

I rejoiced when they said unto me: 'Let us go unto the house of the LORD. Psalm 122:1

Click to expand...

Reading the entire post now, you know what i thought of? Sabbath. That ideally setting aside all noise and make work, and just being and thinking of the holy one, the Eternal.