Why Hinduism

Aupmanyav said:

Buddhism and Jainism parted from Hinduism at a later date.

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Jainarayan said:

There's no single founder of Hinduism. We have a number of rishis, i.e. sages that spent many years, centuries in deep meditation and perceived its knowledge. They did not hear a voice from the sky, or be handed a code book.

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shivsomashekhar said:

Though Hindu denotes religion today, it is not truly one. It is an umbrella term that captures many different beliefs

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Thank you Firedragon for starting this thread. As Vinayaka and some of the other Hindus know, I get most of my information about Hinduism from Hindus trying to correct what Baha'is have said about Hinduism. (Hey Adrian, how are you?) So what really pops out for me is that there is no single founder. Rishis, or sages, perceived its knowledge. Hinduism is an "umbrella" term. So because it is a religion that can contain many diverse beliefs within it, why are Buddhism and Jainism considered separate religions? Or, to Hindus, are they considered separate?

CG Didymus said:

So because it is a religion that can contain many diverse beliefs within it, why are Buddhism and Jainism considered separate religions? Or, to Hindus, are they considered separate?

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That's a really good question, and one that has a number of answers depending on who you talk to. I think of them as sister religions, not unlike sister dialects of a language. There are enough differences to allow them to have their own identities, but yet they are still "mutually intelligible", that is, they still have many commonalities and/or overlaps. For others, it's a matter of cultural identity or even politics.

CG Didymus said:

Hinduism is an "umbrella" term. So because it is a religion that can contain many diverse beliefs within it, why are Buddhism and Jainism considered separate religions? Or, to Hindus, are they considered separate?

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Back during the time of Cyrus the Great (and his descendants), Hindu was purely geographic.

After Islam invaders settled in India, they used the term to mean non-Muslims, for administrative purposes.

After the British took over, the term Hindu was applied to non-Muslim and non-Christian.

From the 19th Century, Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs were considered non-Hindus. But for legal purposes, Jains and Buddhists are still considered Hindu.

CG Didymus said:

Thank you Firedragon for starting this thread. As Vinayaka and some of the other Hindus know, I get most of my information about Hinduism from Hindus trying to correct what Baha'is have said about Hinduism. (Hey Adrian, how are you?) So what really pops out for me is that there is no single founder. Rishis, or sages, perceived its knowledge. Hinduism is an "umbrella" term. So because it is a religion that can contain many diverse beliefs within it, why are Buddhism and Jainism considered separate religions? Or, to Hindus, are they considered separate?

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Hey CG. That is correct about the Hindus correcting the Baha’is. Many of us knew little about Hinduism when we joined the forum and were staying dumb things like Hinduism was founded by Krishna and thinking all Hindus believed in Avatars. Fortunately some Hindus here have beaten the Baha’is senseless and we’ll never dare to speak out of turn again.

firedragon said:

As far as i know

1. Hinduism is a term that refers to the religion or/and philosophy of the Hindu. But is it the other way around or is it simply both ways?
2. Scholars have said that it is a pantheistic religion. But is it monotheistic or is it polytheistic?
3. Hinduism doesnt take evil as necessarily bad or does it? Is it the balancing act of the sustainer, the brahma? Or is there diversity in this matter?
4. Is Hinduism the oldest religion? What are the findings? Is it that ancient religions found in the region all just "Hinduism"? Or are they truly scriptural?
5. Are Hindu scripture the oldest found? What are the paleographic/manuscript evidences for the position?
6. As a religion is Hinduism the most diverse and extensive in terms of philosophical wealth?

Why are the Hindu's steady in their faith? Why are their numbers globally so stable and secure, in history, current world and estimated future values? What is Hinduism? Why Hinduism?

I would be honoured to hear some of your thoughts. And i thank you in advance.

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1. The Hindu culture is a very varied and ancient mix of spiritual philosophy, social philosophy, religious imaginations (mythical thinking and superstitions) and all kinds of life styles connected to those philosophies and religious imaginations.
I would never see or describe that broad Hindu culture as a religion or a faith.

Many Westerners practise yoga at all kind of levels but they are not seen as part of Hinduism or "converts to Hinduism".
I think it is the false superiority complex of Islam and Christianity which has caused some people in the Hindu cultural fold to form the false idea that they are part of a separate Hindu religion. Drawing artificial lines along religious borders is not part of the normal Hindu culture.

2. The Hindu culture is far too varied to define it in a theistic way.

3. Good and bad in Hindu culture is I think always connected with hindering (blocking) other creatures to develop themselves (in the broadest sense) or to hinder or neglect one's own development.

4. Hindu culture is much older than the narrow idea of religion. Hindu scriptures vary from spiritual and social philosophy to instructions, also packed into inspirational (mythical) stories meant to educate people spiritually and socially (how to follow the human dharma).

5. Hindu scriptures were not written down but memorized for thousands of years (first for lack of a script and later out of superstitious fears). Eventually this superstition was overcome and many were written down, but much was also lost for ever.

6. Hindu culture is not a religion. The reason why it is so vast, varied and rich is that India is such a fertile continent relative to the rest of world (especially in ancient times), which allowed its peoples to develop much faster culturally. Also India is at a cross roads to different cultures that came to India from outside and influenced each other there. The major ingredients were tantric cultures and more vedic cultures (the latter are more related to religious ways of thinking). Yoga and Tantra from India penetrated into many spiritual paths, also outside of India. You cannot call them religious influences, it is more deep (and universal) than that, they are more like spiritual science.

adrian009 said:

Hey CG. That is correct about the Hindus correcting the Baha’is. Many of us knew little about Hinduism when we joined the forum and were staying dumb things like Hinduism was founded by Krishna and thinking all Hindus believed in Avatars. Fortunately some Hindus here have beaten the Baha’is senseless and we’ll never dare to speak out of turn again.

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People do learn tact, and not to speak unwisely about other faiths. Several Baha'i folk here have also learned not to blatantly proselytise.

But did any of the actual beliefs change, or is it just polite talk, in order to get along? It's a very different message to say "I won't say that again' versus 'I won't think that again'. As I think I've mentioned before, the hired drivers of India 'change' their religion with each new passenger. New passengers not familiar with that system are just so happy their driver is the same religion as they are.

Vinayaka said:

People do learn tact, and not to speak unwisely about other faiths. Several Baha'i folk here have also learned not to blatantly proselytise.

But did any of the actual beliefs change, or is it just polite talk, in order to get along? It's a very different message to say "I won't say that again' versus 'I won't think that again'. As I think I've mentioned before, the hired drivers of India 'change' their religion with each new passenger. New passengers not familiar with that system are just so happy their driver is the same religion as they are.

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Of course there was an element of humour in my statement.

Hinduism was a religion I hadn’t thought a great deal about prior to coming on this forum. So for me two things have changed.

1/ Developing some understanding of Hinduism albeit very basic.

2/ Clarifying what my own religion has to say about Hinduism.

So I don’t see there is anything about Baha’i beliefs in regards Hinduism that are wrong. There are obvious pitfalls for a Baha’i whose education about Hinduism begins and ends with the Baha’i writings. The most obvious is projecting an Abrahamic paradigm onto Hinduism. It doesn’t work. But I do see how the Baha’i Faith can fit with Hinduism.

In regards proselytising, that can be defined in different ways. How that works in regards the rules of this forum there is no doubt that some Baha’is on this forum have needed to make significant adjustments to their style of posting. For some there is still a lot of work to be done. Baha’is eager to present their faith accurately can overly rely on quotes. As we have strong beliefs of a controversial nature we need to take care to state those beliefs as beliefs rather than facts. Sometimes Baha’is in their eagerness to share, end up providing a lot of off topic information that comes across as proselytising. On occasion there is a desire to convert no doubt and that does meet the definition of proselytising.

So in regards the points
1/ education about Hinduism
2/ learning to be good members of this forum
3/ abiding by the rules
4/ not proselytising

There is one member of this forum who has played a significant role in educating the Baha’is. For that I sincerely offer my gratitude.

adrian009 said:

So I don’t see there is anything about Baha’i beliefs in regards Hinduism that are wrong.

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Thank you for the informed reply. I concur with most of it, but remain disappointed with the quoted sentence. But then you're a Baha'i, what else could you say or believe? If you didn't believe that, you wouldn't be a Baha'i.

Carry on.

Vinayaka said:

There are many many many scriptures, often contradictory. This is an incomplete list.

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This, and by extension for Buddhism, is why I kinda have trouble reading scriptures for Hinduism. Should I read the Vedas? The Upanishad? As it is, I have read the Ramayana and the Mahabharata.

When you come up with an all-in-one book that I can pick up at Amazon, cool, I'll study your religion. When it's a 26-part box set, no thank you.

Samantha Rinne said:

This, and by extension for Buddhism, is why I kinda have trouble reading scriptures for Hinduism. Should I read the Vedas? The Upanishad? As it is, I have read the Ramayana and the Mahabharata.

When you come up with an all-in-one book that I can pick up at Amazon, cool, I'll study your religion. When it's a 26-part box set, no thank you.

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Yeah, I've never read any of it. I hate reading.

Terry Sampson said:

1. Consequently, IMO, Hinduism doesn't seem like it would be deaf/Deaf-friendly. Could/Would you agree?
2. Interesting.
3. Yes, ... unless and until you force me to put you on my "Ignore" list; If that happens, you can call me anything you want.
4. That's what we carnivores would call "a meaty sentence", so I'll comment on it in another post.

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1. I agree, the mantra art is not deaf friendly, but the worship\spectacle part is OK.
I have lost nearly 60% of my hearing. Unfortunately, since I was at one time a connoisseur of rich Indian music. But that is life.


2. Nothing surprising there. Only priests pray in Sanskrit. All others pray in their own language.
3. Thanks, and I would never do any such thing.
4. That is my Hinduism. Brahman alone, no second.

Vinayaka said:

Thank you for the informed reply. I concur with most of it, but remain disappointed with the quoted sentence. But then you're a Baha'i, what else could you say or believe? If you didn't believe that, you wouldn't be a Baha'i.

Carry on.

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It would be reasonable and natural for a Baha’i to have Baha’i beliefs. Most Baha’i beliefs albeit one appear to fit well with Hinduism.

1/ Hinduism is a religion of Divine origins. Nothing controversial there.

2/ Krishna is a Manifestation/Incarnation and Avatar of Vishnu/God. Well admittedly I had to add in incarnation and Vishnu myself. Still kinda close. There are of course Hindus who don’t believe in Krishna and Avatars.

3/ Reincarnation is not seen as the literal transmigration of souls. Not all Hindus believe in reincarnation though many do, probably the majority.

4/ Bahá’u’lláh is the Kalki Avatar. That’s the major difference of course between a Baha’i and a Hindu.

Interestingly they are all beliefs that will be sincerely held by Baha’is who study Hinduism and what the Baha’i writings. None of those four beliefs can be completely proved as disproved as far as I can see. But that is the nature of many religious beliefs is it not? To be truly accepting of religious diversity means accommodating differences and change, does it not?

firedragon said:

You mean six sects?

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Yeah the six sects - Pūraṇa Kassapa, Makkhali Gośāla, Ajita Kesakambalī, Pakudha Kaccāyana, Nigaṇṭha Nātiputta and Sañjaya Belaṭṭhiputta.

firedragon said:

As far as i know

1. Hinduism is a term that refers to the religion or/and philosophy of the Hindu. But is it the other way around or is it simply both ways?
2. Scholars have said that it is a pantheistic religion. But is it monotheistic or is it polytheistic?
3. Hinduism doesnt take evil as necessarily bad or does it? Is it the balancing act of the sustainer, the brahma? Or is there diversity in this matter?
4. Is Hinduism the oldest religion? What are the findings? Is it that ancient religions found in the region all just "Hinduism"? Or are they truly scriptural?
5. Are Hindu scripture the oldest found? What are the paleographic/manuscript evidences for the position?
6. As a religion is Hinduism the most diverse and extensive in terms of philosophical wealth?

Why are the Hindu's steady in their faith? Why are their numbers globally so stable and secure, in history, current world and estimated future values? What is Hinduism? Why Hinduism?

I would be honoured to hear some of your thoughts. And i thank you in advance.

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Hinduism is an umbrella term as others have said

Its the combination of the two! Henotheistic! Vedantic knowledge presents that there is a Supreme Lord (Brahman) who is the ultimate reality and pervades and resides in all creation. Lesser deities are too many to count, but for sake of clarification there are Devas and Asuras But to be frank, these groups are more like us than they are like Brahman. A mere drop of Brahman's power creates and destroys universes!

Evil is ignorance. It can be purified by gaining knowledge of Dharma and The Vedas. There is no concept of evil being irredeemable in Hinduism. Asuras are considered 'evil' in that they are slaved to their desires and emotions. But the greatest Asura was King Bali, a very pious Asura

The Vedas are the breath of Narayana (Brahman). Where there is the Truth, The Vedas are revealed. Thus there is no origin. It has always existed as Narayana has always existed. However, i would say our conception of Hinduism began after Vyasa Deva compiled The Vedas into 4 categories and wrote The Purunas. This occurred during the time Lord Krishna walked the Earth, about 3000 BCE. And (pertaining to Vaishnavism, worship of Narayana, Lord Vishnu) great saint-philosophers like Sri Adi Shankara, Sri Ramanujacharya, Sri Madhvacharya, and Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. This is known as the Bhakti Movement

There is immense philosophical wealth. Our scriptures require a highly trained mind to pry open its complex teachings. Thankfully there are many commentaries by many saints like the ones i mentioned.

CG Didymus said:

.. why are Buddhism and Jainism considered separate religions? Or, to Hindus, are they considered separate?

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Because their adherents want it that way, and we honor what they say. It is basically politics. To many like me, it does not matter. All Indic religions are mine, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism. We love and honor those who established them, we have no difference with them apart of technicalities, as for Buddha, most Hindus consider him as the ninth and the latest avatara of Lord Vishnu.

adrian009 said:

1/ Hinduism is a religion of Divine origins. Nothing controversial there.

2/ Krishna is a Manifestation/Incarnation and Avatar of Vishnu/God. Well admittedly I had to add in incarnation and Vishnu myself. Still kinda close. There are of course Hindus who don’t believe in Krishna and Avatars.

3/ Reincarnation is not seen as the literal transmigration of souls. Not all Hindus believe in reincarnation though many do, probably the majority.

4/ Bahá’u’lláh is the Kalki Avatar. That’s the major difference of course between a Baha’i and a Hindu.

Interestingly they are all beliefs that will be sincerely held by Baha’is who study Hinduism and what the Baha’i writings. None of those four beliefs can be completely proved as disproved as far as I can see. But that is the nature of many religious beliefs is it not? To be truly accepting of religious diversity means accommodating differences and change, does it not?

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Hinduism is not a religion but a rich and varied culture.
Only a portion of Hinduism believes in so-called avatars.
Most Hindus believe in reincarnation and even a lot of people outside of Hinduism do so.
What exactly transmigrates may not be clear, but a person or a living being remains responsible for only its own past actions and takes its own samskara's from one incarnation to the next.

Samantha Rinne said:

This, and by extension for Buddhism, is why I kinda have trouble reading scriptures for Hinduism. Should I read the Vedas? The Upanishad? As it is, I have read the Ramayana and the Mahabharata.

When you come up with an all-in-one book that I can pick up at Amazon, cool, I'll study your religion. When it's a 26-part box set, no thank you.

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If there was an all-in-one book for Hinduism, I assure you that you would not have been able to pick that up. Not the Vedas. For beginners Upanishads are the right place to start. That is how I started my religious journey with a 124 page small little book on Princial Upanishads by Swami Shivananda of the Divine Life Society.

adrian009 said:

1/ Hinduism is a religion of Divine origins. Nothing controversial there.
2/ Krishna is a Manifestation/Incarnation and Avatar of Vishnu/God. Well admittedly I had to add in incarnation and Vishnu myself. Still kinda close. There are of course Hindus who don’t believe in Krishna and Avatars.
3/ Reincarnation is not seen as the literal transmigration of souls. Not all Hindus believe in reincarnation though many do, probably the majority.
4/ Bahá’u’lláh is the Kalki Avatar. That’s the major difference of course between a Baha’i and a Hindu.
To be truly accepting of religious diversity means accommodating differences and change, does it not?

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1. Hinduism is not of divine origins. It was created by the people of India. No divine agency was involved in it. It is a social development. Can you prove anything called divine?
2. Vishnu and Krishna are stories to guide people.
3. "Bhasmi-bhutasya dehasya punaragamanam kutah" (Once the body is consumed by flames, there is no coming back) - Charvak saying.
4. Nothing divine or everything divine. It is not possible to have one part divine and the other not divine.
Truth cannot be sacrificed at the altar of accommodation.

Aupmanyav said:

1. Hinduism is not of divine origins. It was created by the people of India. No divine agency was involved in it. It is a social development. Can you prove anything called divine?

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You can not prove there is no God or gods.

The majority of Hindus have a theist worldview that includes a Supreme Being.

Aupmanyav said:

2. Vishnu and Krishna are stories to guide people.

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Vishnu is an essential aspect of the Supreme Being and a name for His Preserving Power. Your belief that He is fictional does not distract from Him being real. One again it is a belief that can not be proven or disproven.

Krishna was a real man who walked the earth. His historicity is accepted by many historians.

Aupmanyav said:

3. "Bhasmi-bhutasya dehasya punaragamanam kutah" (Once the body is consumed by flames, there is no coming back) - Charvak saying.

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Most Hindus believe in an afterlife as Baha’is do.

Aupmanyav said:

4. Nothing divine or everything divine. It is not possible to have one part divine and the other not divine.
Truth cannot be sacrificed at the altar of accommodation.

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As the table ca not comprehend the reality of the carpenter that made it, so too are we unable to fathom the unfathomable.

firedragon said:

Is it contradiction or contradistinction?

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Yes, that is exactly it.

In all seriousness, you shouldn't worry so much about whether scriptures are in harmony with others or even themselves. It just doesn't help.

Religion is far greater than any scriptures.

Specifically, the worth and meaning of any religious texts can only exist, let alone have worth, when they are enriched with the discernment and understanding of people with sincere intent and wisdom.