Why do church scandals bother us so much?

IndigoChild5559 · Jan 7, 2020

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Depends. What's the basis for his claim of expertise?

His studies.

InChrist · Jan 7, 2020

IndigoChild5559 said:
I think really, we hold religious people to a higher standard. We hate hypocrisy (unless of course it's our own selves). We have this notion that if religion is authentic, then the people who practice will be a cut above. But is that fair??

I think that to a certain extent it is. For those who wish to better themselves as human beings, who wish to become more decent, more moral, ethical, kinder, compassionate, loving and just individuals, the religions of the world have the tools to help them reach their goal. IOW religion is an opportunity -- the parisioner has the choice to avail himself of that opportunity.

OR NOT. Let's face it. People attend religious services for all sorts of reasons. It is only the minority that attend with a mind to change themselves for the better. The majority are not there to put in the work. They are there, rather, to network for their career, to socialize with the young marrieds group, to look for a spouse, to receive praise for their service to the community, to have the approved kind of family... there are a million reasons to attend that have nothing with spiritual growth. It's not that these are bad reasons. And I'm glad that they are there. It's just that these are NOT reasons that are going to lead to an individual living on a higher ethical plane than someone who is religiously unhoused.

Given that so many people are in faith communities for reasons other than religious growth, it should not surprise us AT ALL that they succumb to all the same problems and vices as those who have no synagogue, church, mosque, or temple. They are dealing with all the same temptations, and they have all the same character flaws that are not being worked on getting in their way.

So why should it shock us when the Church Treasurer embezzles? Why? Indeed he may even fudge on the taxes thinking he is helping out God's church.

These boards that cover up scandals of their priests and pastors? Please! Principals do this for their coaches -- why does it surprise us that a church would do the same for its own leadership? it's the identical human trait.

And I hate to say it, but yes, there are thieves, wife beaters, gangsters, rapists, and child molesters sitting in the pews. You sit with them every week unaware who they are.

Folks, people are people. Stop pointing these self righteous fingers. Sure when these scandals happen they need to be dealt with swiftly and appropriately. But let's all grow up a little bit.

Interesting OP and I thought you made some good points. One important thing I think people forget, which the scriptures clearly warn about, is wolves in sheep’s clothing. There are those who purposely target churches and/or religious groups for their own personal gain or to use and abuse others. It is easy for these individuals to fake it and put on a good show (sheep’s clothing) among people who are expected to be accepting, loving and forgiving.

PruePhillip · Jan 7, 2020

IndigoChild5559 said:
I think really, we hold religious people to a higher standard. We hate hypocrisy (unless of course it's our own selves). We have this notion that if religion is authentic, then the people who practice will be a cut above. But is that fair??

I think that to a certain extent it is. For those who wish to better themselves as human beings, who wish to become more decent, more moral, ethical, kinder, compassionate, loving and just individuals, the religions of the world have the tools to help them reach their goal. IOW religion is an opportunity -- the parisioner has the choice to avail himself of that opportunity.

OR NOT. Let's face it. People attend religious services for all sorts of reasons. It is only the minority that attend with a mind to change themselves for the better. The majority are not there to put in the work. They are there, rather, to network for their career, to socialize with the young marrieds group, to look for a spouse, to receive praise for their service to the community, to have the approved kind of family... there are a million reasons to attend that have nothing with spiritual growth. It's not that these are bad reasons. And I'm glad that they are there. It's just that these are NOT reasons that are going to lead to an individual living on a higher ethical plane than someone who is religiously unhoused.

Given that so many people are in faith communities for reasons other than religious growth, it should not surprise us AT ALL that they succumb to all the same problems and vices as those who have no synagogue, church, mosque, or temple. They are dealing with all the same temptations, and they have all the same character flaws that are not being worked on getting in their way.

So why should it shock us when the Church Treasurer embezzles? Why? Indeed he may even fudge on the taxes thinking he is helping out God's church.

These boards that cover up scandals of their priests and pastors? Please! Principals do this for their coaches -- why does it surprise us that a church would do the same for its own leadership? it's the identical human trait.

And I hate to say it, but yes, there are thieves, wife beaters, gangsters, rapists, and child molesters sitting in the pews. You sit with them every week unaware who they are.

Folks, people are people. Stop pointing these self righteous fingers. Sure when these scandals happen they need to be dealt with swiftly and appropriately. But let's all grow up a little bit.

Behind the churches lie deep moral teachings. These teachings long precede the
modern Christian churches (including Catholic) and these teachings are not really
observed in any depth (ie edicts about idols, divorce, money, earthly sanctuaries,
holy days etc..)
But it's fashionable to attack the churches, not because of some sin but because
people are no longer comfortable with the moral foundations.

stvdv · Jan 7, 2020

IndigoChild5559 said:
Unless you are specific, I can't really reply. Honestly, you can't expect me to read your mind.

No, that is very true. Would be nice if you could though.

I meant the few times in the Bible that Jesus was not so friendly towards the pharisees.
I am not a Bible expert, but I always got the impression that those pharisees were teaching, but were not living up to their own teachings

Another one is "who is without sin, throw the first stone"
So if a Christian is throwing "nukes" to others (belittling other's feeling/faith is the worst of sin IMO)
It is correct to show them (at least) a mirror of what they are doing
Those who see a crime and don't act, are as guilty (some people say)

Islam is pretty clear on this one. This is called Blasphemy, and the right thing to do is to kill them (some Muslims believe).
Old Testament also was strict with Blasphemy.
That should make them think twice, I would think. But no, they seem not to think/introspect at all.
In Holland Geert Wilders wanted to do a "Muhammad drawing contest"
Hundreds of thousands of Pakistan Muslims wanted to nuke The Netherlands over a drawing contest (belittling their prophet)
So belittling someone's (non) faith can have nuking consequences. That shows at least that you better think twice before doing it IMO

IndigoChild5559 · Jan 7, 2020

stvdv said:
No, that is very true. Would be nice if you could though.

I meant the few times in the Bible that Jesus was not so friendly towards the pharisees.

Personally, I'm glad we can't read minds. If you knew how much junk and clutter was in my brain, and endless repetitive music, you wouldn't want to go there.

I'm familiar with the idea that Jesus criticized teh Pharisees because they were religious. It's actually become a common meme among certain Christians. The problem is, it's just not supported by the text.

I know it may seem strange for a Jew, but I have actually read your gospels. Jesus was, after all, a Jew, and Christianity is by far the most influential religion where I live. That particular time period is of great interest to me, because it is in that great crucible that out of Second Temple Judaism both the Rabbinical Judaism we have today and Christianity were formed. It is fascinating to me to see how what was originally a heretical sect of Judaism eventually made Judaism its greatest enemy.

The truth that is obvious when I read your gospels is (assuming they paint an accurate picture of how Jesus felt about the pharisees) that he had two complaints:
Their hypocricy. They didn't practice what they preached. IOW what they preached was correct -- they simply needed to follow what they themselves taught.
The fact that at least in some cases the Oral Torah was being put on a higher level than the written Torah, so that the written Torah was being violated. This is an odd kind of complaint,because the purpose of the Oral Torah is to build a fence around the Written Torah so that there is no chance it is violated.

What we do NOT see is Jesus telling the Pharisees to stop observing the Laws. We just don't. In fact, in Matthew 23:23, he basically tells them to observe the basics of the Written Torah, and then to ALSO keep the Oral Torah. In Matthew 23:1-3 He instructs his follows to do EVERYTHING the Pharisees teach, which would include both Written and Oral Torah.

So no, Jesus did not criticize the Pharisees for their religiosity.

stvdv · Jan 8, 2020

stvdv said:
I always got the impression that those pharisees were teaching, but were not living up to their own teachings

IndigoChild5559 said:
he had two complaints:
Their hypocricy. They didn't practice what they preached

IndigoChild5559 said:
So no, Jesus did not criticize the Pharisees for their religiosity.

Exactly. Jesus dealt with their hypocrisy.
I think hypocrisy and arrogance are close.

So it is useless to tell arrogant people that their teachings are wrong. Best to first address their hypocrisy and arrogance.

The meek and humble are more open to good advice than the arrogant and hypocrit

I don't say their teaching is wrong. I don't even know what they all said and teached.

I do know that arrogantly belittling other's (non) faith and feelings is 'not done',

ChristineM · Jan 8, 2020

Why Do Church Scandals Bother Us So Much?

Because church leaders are supposed to be a moral standard, quite obviously some are not and should be exposed as such

A Vestigial Mote · Jan 8, 2020

IndigoChild5559 said:
Folks, people are people. Stop pointing these self righteous fingers. Sure when these scandals happen they need to be dealt with swiftly and appropriately. But let's all grow up a little bit.

This isn't what it is about at all.

The fingers are pointed and the religious singled out because they are found to be so often admonishing everyone else's behavior. Atheists aren't going around with a doctrine, pointing at it and stating that anyone who doesn't follow their doctrine is "sinning."

It is actually quite simple - ANY time you engage in judgment of another based on some established code of ethics and then you go on to break that same code of ethics, you have just established yourself as a hypocrite. I DON'T HAVE THIS PROBLEM on such a scale as theists do... because I HAVE NO CODE OF ETHICS. It is the "code according to me"... and so no one else knows it, and no one else knows when I am breaking my own code of ethics unless they know me well enough - which very few do. And believe me, if those people who are that close to me catch me in hypocrisy THEY LET ME KNOW, and do so with no small amount of fanfare.

So, stop complaining and take the plunge into encouraging your chosen extended community groups to follow their own code of ethics. But then, of course, you'll potentially be seen as judging, and then you have to monitor your own actions to make sure you don't do anything untoward, etc. etc. etc.

Koldo · Jan 8, 2020

IndigoChild5559 said:
A doctor is an authority on health. If a doctor is in poor health, is his expertise any less?

If a doctor presents himself as being in good health, based on his expertise, but is actually in poor health, yes. It shows he can't be trusted.

Twilight Hue · Jan 8, 2020

IndigoChild5559 said:
I think really, we hold religious people to a higher standard. We hate hypocrisy (unless of course it's our own selves). We have this notion that if religion is authentic, then the people who practice will be a cut above. But is that fair??

I think that to a certain extent it is. For those who wish to better themselves as human beings, who wish to become more decent, more moral, ethical, kinder, compassionate, loving and just individuals, the religions of the world have the tools to help them reach their goal. IOW religion is an opportunity -- the parisioner has the choice to avail himself of that opportunity.

OR NOT. Let's face it. People attend religious services for all sorts of reasons. It is only the minority that attend with a mind to change themselves for the better. The majority are not there to put in the work. They are there, rather, to network for their career, to socialize with the young marrieds group, to look for a spouse, to receive praise for their service to the community, to have the approved kind of family... there are a million reasons to attend that have nothing with spiritual growth. It's not that these are bad reasons. And I'm glad that they are there. It's just that these are NOT reasons that are going to lead to an individual living on a higher ethical plane than someone who is religiously unhoused.

Given that so many people are in faith communities for reasons other than religious growth, it should not surprise us AT ALL that they succumb to all the same problems and vices as those who have no synagogue, church, mosque, or temple. They are dealing with all the same temptations, and they have all the same character flaws that are not being worked on getting in their way.

So why should it shock us when the Church Treasurer embezzles? Why? Indeed he may even fudge on the taxes thinking he is helping out God's church.

These boards that cover up scandals of their priests and pastors? Please! Principals do this for their coaches -- why does it surprise us that a church would do the same for its own leadership? it's the identical human trait.

And I hate to say it, but yes, there are thieves, wife beaters, gangsters, rapists, and child molesters sitting in the pews. You sit with them every week unaware who they are.

Folks, people are people. Stop pointing these self righteous fingers. Sure when these scandals happen they need to be dealt with swiftly and appropriately. But let's all grow up a little bit.

I think its that the church in general continually maintains self righteousness , and apparently cannot fess up to the fact that they and their respective religion is actually no different than anyone else's out there.

A Vestigial Mote · Jan 8, 2020

IndigoChild5559 said:
A doctor is an authority on health. If a doctor is in poor health, is his expertise any less?

Bad analogy.

If you really want to compare to the religious continuing to sin to high degrees (we're not talking about just working on the Sabbath here, remember) you would make the subject of the analogy a doctor who is not only in poor health, but either can't even detect that he is in poor health, or knows he is in poor health, but secretly continues to force his health into decline while simultaneously telling others what they should necessarily be doing to stay healthy.

74x12 · Jan 8, 2020

Not making excuses for all church scandals but for those who really want to know; satanists infiltrate churches and cause scandals just to destroy a church. So you can't believe everything you're told.

IndigoChild5559 · Jan 9, 2020

Koldo said:
If a doctor presents himself as being in good health, based on his expertise, but is actually in poor health, yes. It shows he can't be trusted.

Hmm. The Christians I know say things like, "I'm a sinner. I'm not perfect, just forgiven." They don't claim their knowledge makes them saintly people.

pleinmont · Jan 9, 2020

Many religious people claim some sort of moral high ground so they are rightly criticised when they commit crimes like those associated with the Catholic church.

McBell · Jan 9, 2020

74x12 said:
Not making excuses for all church scandals but for those who really want to know; satanists infiltrate churches and cause scandals just to destroy a church. So you can't believe everything you're told.

h yes,
I bet that is the "norm"...

McBell · Jan 9, 2020

Seems to me the scandals do not bother people as much as you think.
For example, there was a shark attack and for months no one would go near the water.
Yet it is revealed that hundreds of priests have molested thousands of children over hundreds of years and yet the church was as full as ever.

Koldo · Jan 9, 2020

IndigoChild5559 said:
Hmm. The Christians I know say things like, "I'm a sinner. I'm not perfect, just forgiven." They don't claim their knowledge makes them saintly people.

They are not expected to be perfect, they are just expected to not be rapists, or murderers, you know... The bar is not that high, it is about as high as the one we set for child caretakers.

pearl · Jan 9, 2020

metis said:
Nowadays, local bishops and priests have more leeway to determine such matters, and Pope Francis is especially pushing leaving local situations to the local clergy, although not in all cases of course.

But there are some 'situations' where permission is to be sought before acting, and this is one of them. Pope Paul VI was asked for permission to delay the sacrament of first Penance, normally it was mandatory to receive this before 1st communion was allowed. The Church in the US made the case that a six year old had no concept of sin and therefore was unable to commit sin. The pope granted permission and for several years the sacrament of reconciliation was not offered until the 5th grade. Then Paul ordered the 'experiment' ended. We were one of the last parishes to abide, but finally had to desist from the practice.

IndigoChild5559 · Jan 9, 2020

Koldo said:
They are not expected to be perfect, they are just expected to not be rapists, or murderers, you know... The bar is not that high, it is about as high as the one we set for child caretakers.

I'm sorry, but people in churches are just people. You are going to find the same proportions inside the church as outside. Don't kid yourself.

I encourage you to go back and read the OP.

9-10ths_Penguin · Jan 9, 2020

IndigoChild5559 said:
His studies.

I have no idea what to do with this.

I suppose a doctor's own health has no bearing on whether he knows the material he studied in school really well.

It may have a bearing on whether that material was correct, assuming that he practices what that material upholds as "healthy" habits and whatever his health issues are were brought on by behavior.

Why do church scandals bother us so much?

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