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Proof Jesus said he is not God in atleast 3 Gospel accounts

Iymus

Active Member
Alternatively, here are three referenced syllogisms!

P1. God alone is worthy of worship [Exodus 20:3,5; Rev. 22:8,9]
P2. Jesus Christ is worthy of worship [John 9:38; John 20:28; Rev. 5:13,14]
C. Therefore, Jesus Christ is God. [1Tim.6:14,15 > Rev. 17:14]

P1. God alone saves from sin and death [Hosea 13:4]
P2. Jesus Christ saves from sin and death [Titus 2:13,14]
C. Therefore, Jesus Christ is God [Titus 2:11]

P1. God alone is without sin (holy)[1 Samuel 2:2]
P2. Jesus Christ is without sin [1 Peter 2:22]
C. Therefore, Jesus Christ is God [John 5:26,27]

1. Everything seems peachy on the surface but worship is based off positions and authority. You cannot worship someone lesser the same way or before someone greater. God is worthy of being worshiped as God. Anointed of God is worthy of being worshiped as Anointed of God but that does not mean that the Anointed of God is God.

2. If Jesus did not come in the name and authority of The Father and be subservient to his works then no one would be saved. Therefore on a Macro Level or Volume of the Book it is The Father that saves.

John 5:43

3. God alone is not without sin The Heavenly Hosts and Spirits that have not fallen are also without Sin to my knowledge. A Man recorded without sin is a Man not a God. That Man is the Son of The Living God.

Mat 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
1. Much of your words are Romanticism in order to make one feel good and comfortable. According to the Bible God saves "or does anything for that matter" by his will and authority alone.

2. Anyone is worthy of worship in their respective position of authority, leadership , power , etc.
Jesus is worthy of worship as Son or Anointed of God: Not literally God himself.

Let's take a careful look at what you are arguing.

In Point 1, you say that God saves by his will and authority alone. Yes, only God saves from sin and death. Why? Because all mankind is under sin, and this means people cannot save themselves. Has any man been able to overcome death, to become immortal, by his own efforts? NO! It is up to God to do the saving. And God does not give eternal life to those that are sinful!

Point 2. No one, apart from God, is worthy of worship according to the Mosaic law [Exodus 20:3-5]. Read Rev. 22:8,9 and you will see that John was told not to worship an angel. It says, authoritatively, WORSHIP GOD.

Point 3. You argue that Jesus is an appointed saviour, not the true saviour. That makes two saviours - yet scripture is very clear that there is only ONE SAVIOUR from sin and death [Hosea 13:4; 1Sam.2:6; Deut. 32:39,40]. Either there is life in Jesus Christ, or there is not! Scripture tells us, without doubt, that there is life in Jesus Christ! [John 5:26]

Point 4. Jesus was the Son of God on earth. As God's Son, He always looked upwards to his Father in heaven. Jesus was fully man and fully God. Only after resurrection was he made incorruptible and immortal. Only after resurrection did he ascend to his throne in heaven. As it says in John 1:14, 'And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.'

If you were once a trinitarian, then, IMO, you should return to being one! Somewhere along the line, you've been deceived and led astray.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
It's important that ALL scripture makes sense, not just your selection! All the passages that you have quoted above are easily explained if you understand the manner of God's intervention in this world.

The problem created by all unitarians, such as yourself, is one of proximity. If God cannot dwell on earth, then sin cannot be overcome justly. God, and God alone, is without sin; therefore, only God is able to overcome sin and death.

God has a perfect and just way of solving the problem of sin and death. But ONLY GOD IS ABLE TO SAVE. The God who was above all, came to dwell amongst us, that we might receive within us His Holy Spirit, and be redeemed.

All the scriptures that you quote can be explained as part of God's plan. Father - Son - Holy Spirit; this is the demonstration of God's condescension and love. The Holy Spirit directs us to the Son; in turn, the Son points us to the Father. It's one Spirit, one God.

If you have some other idea of how God saves mankind, then please go ahead and explain! So far, you have not managed to answer the two points made in my earlier posts. Is Jesus worthy of worship? Is Jesus Christ our Saviour?

We can now add a further question; Is Jesus Christ without sin?
You say "it's important that ALL scripture makes sense," But the doctrine of trinity makes no sense to anyone!

It makes no sense to say three are HE! Three means they not He!
 

Iymus

Active Member
Let's take a careful look at what you are arguing.

In Point 1, you say that God saves by his will and authority alone. Yes, only God saves from sin and death. Why? Because all mankind is under sin, and this means people cannot save themselves. Has any man been able to overcome death, to become immortal, by his own efforts? NO! It is up to God to do the saving. And God does not give eternal life to those that are sinful!

Point 2. No one, apart from God, is worthy of worship according to the Mosaic law [Exodus 20:3-5]. Read Rev. 22:8,9 and you will see that John was told not to worship an angel. It says, authoritatively, WORSHIP GOD.

Point 3. You argue that Jesus is an appointed saviour, not the true saviour. That makes two saviours - yet scripture is very clear that there is only ONE SAVIOUR from sin and death [Hosea 13:4; 1Sam.2:6; Deut. 32:39,40]. Either there is life in Jesus Christ, or there is not! Scripture tells us, without doubt, that there is life in Jesus Christ! [John 5:26]

Point 4. Jesus was the Son of God on earth. As God's Son, He always looked upwards to his Father in heaven. Jesus was fully man and fully God. Only after resurrection was he made incorruptible and immortal. Only after resurrection did he ascend to his throne in heaven. As it says in John 1:14, 'And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.'

If you were once a trinitarian, then, IMO, you should return to being one! Somewhere along the line, you've been deceived and led astray.

towards Your first point: it contradicts nothing.

towards your second point: When i last looked up the definition of worship there seemed to be different types or levels with one type being exclusive to God only.

towards your third point: Moses was appointed to draw or deliver his people from Egypt but it was God who delivered his people from egypt. It was his will and authority alone. Only a Saviour can appoint saviours or deliverers with the one who appoint being the only true one.

towards your fourth point: Son of God is recorded as being Beginning of Creation of God.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Lastly I am fine not believing Jesus is God; i rather overcome the world and believe he is the Son of God.

1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
You say "it's important that ALL scripture makes sense," But the doctrine of trinity makes no sense to anyone!

It makes no sense to say three are HE! Three means they not He!

The way I understand the trinity is based on scripture. In Ephesians 4:6 it says, 'One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.'

The revelation of God throughout the scriptures is ABOVE (as in the OT), AMONGST or through (in the person of Jesus Christ on earth), and WITHIN (when born again of the Holy Spirit).

There is only one SPIRIT of GOD. The Spirit of the Father is the same Holy Spirit that was in Jesus Christ, which is also the same Holy Spirit that is sent to believers in the Body of Christ, the Church. That is why the Church, as a body or collective, should be doing the work of Christ on earth.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
It seems I would have to be more specific and use Heavenly Father so the conclusion can logically follow.

#1

No Man = Heavenly Father
Jesus = Man
Heavenly Father = Not Jesus

Sorry but your form

no M is P
all S is not M
__________
P is not S​

is invalid. However, what you can validly conclude is, no S is P: No Jesus is the Heavenly Father


#2

Heavenly Father = Lord of Heaven and Earth
God = Lord of Heaven and Earth
Heavenly Father = God

Again, your syllogism

all M is P
all S is P
__________
all M is S​

is invalid.

My advice: Until you have a better understanding of syllogisms and the different forms they take I'd stay away from trying to construct a syllogistic argument.

.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
towards Your first point: it contradicts nothing.

towards your second point: When i last looked up the definition of worship there seemed to be different types or levels with one type being exclusive to God only.

towards your third point: Moses was appointed to draw or deliver his people from Egypt but it was God who delivered his people from egypt. It was his will and authority alone. Only a Saviour can appoint saviours or deliverers with the one who appoint being the only true one.

towards your fourth point: Son of God is recorded as being Beginning of Creation of God.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Lastly I am fine not believing Jesus is God; i rather overcome the world and believe he is the Son of God.

1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Just to be clear, I do believe that the Spirit that was in Jesus was the same Spirit that created the heaven and the earth. This is what Paul writes to the Colossians,'Who [the Father] hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;'

From what is said here in Colossians, do you believe that 'by him [the Word of God] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth'? If you do believe this, how can you not believe that the Son of God is the same Spirit of God that created the heaven and the earth in the beginning?
 

Iymus

Active Member
Just to be clear, I do believe that the Spirit that was in Jesus was the same Spirit that created the heaven and the earth. This is what Paul writes to the Colossians,'Who [the Father] hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;'

From what is said here in Colossians, do you believe that 'by him [the Word of God] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth'? If you do believe this, how can you not believe that the Son of God is the same Spirit of God that created the heaven and the earth in the beginning?

On a Macro Level, According to the Law and the Prophets, In the Grand Scheme of things; The Son did not authorize creation, It was not of The Son, Neither was it of his will and authority. The Father alone originated everything. All credit and glory goes to the Originator first and foremost.

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Essentially Doing the will of God is also understanding the Authority of God and that does not come or originate of Jesus but of The Father alone.

According to the will and authority of God by the law and the prophets Jesus created nothing.

Also

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

The Commandments of God which reveal the Authority of God does not conform to the trinitarian creed of men; So more than likely the answers you received is not the answers you want to hear.

 
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QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Okay, now you shift again to something new "me blaming the students". You are the one using the word "blaming" here. I was talking about "not blaming" ... remember? I was only talking about "problems in communication". I don't see the need to blame anyone. It's just what it is. Why blame God? I have never seen God. Would seem silly to me, if I would start blaming God. Especially if people define God as perfect. Then better first adjust the definition of God, if you like to blame God.

You read too much into my words.

First of all I am not a Christian.

But being here on RF it was quite obvious that quite a few Christians agree on 1 thing "God is good"
Some might go as far to say God is omniscient, omnipotent and some other omnis
I was having this in mind, when I was writing:
I do think all Christians will agree with this:D (that we can't blame God for bad communication)

I did not say that I agree or disagree with that. What I personally think, I have not yet communicated to you. And I won't. Because God is a bit too abstract to me, to start this whole blaming game, which I even find not interesting nor useful, when speaking about spirituality.

Is it, that you try to find a mistake in what I wrote? Or do you have issues with what I said?
Are you maybe an Atheist, and my words "Maybe the 'God part' is good" triggered you?
I did say "maybe", I did not make any claim, just looking at it from a different angle, that's all


You read too much into my words.

I read exactly as much into your words as your words provided. If you wanted me to know that this isn't your position then you should have included that in your words.

First of all I am not a Christian.

That really doesn't matter, because what you did was claim to know what most all Christians would say. And if as you claim most Christians wouldn't say that God is a bad communicator then they sound like the teacher who blames his students because half of them interpreted the lesson incorrectly.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
The problem for the many different sects is that they ADD their own ideas into Scripture rather than allow the Scripture to teach them.
For example, the Scripture nowhere speaks of an inherent immortal soul in man but yet the many sects teach that man was given an immortal soul at his creation.
The consequences of holding to that false idea are many. For one thing, it allows for the idea of eternal torment in a place they call "hell". Again, the term "eternal torment" is nowhere found in Scripture. So, you see what I mean?

This kind of supports my claim that God is a very poor communicator. When God made absolutely no effort to specify exactly what should and should not be included in the 'scriptures' and instead left it up to a bunch of infallible human beings to decide, it practically guaranteed that we'd end up with thousands of sects all claiming to have the TRUE word and absolutely no means of determining the accuracy of their claims.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
You read too much into my words.

I read exactly as much into your words as your words provided. If you wanted me to know that this isn't your position then you should have included that in your words.

First of all I am not a Christian.

That really doesn't matter, because what you did was claim to know what most all Christians would say. And if as you claim most Christians wouldn't say that God is a bad communicator then they sound like the teacher who blames his students because half of them interpreted the lesson incorrectly.

You are entitled to have your opinion.

I agree to disagree on this one.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
On a Macro Level, According to the Law and the Prophets, In the Grand Scheme of things; The Son did not authorize creation, It was not of The Son, Neither was it of his will and authority. The Father alone originated everything. All credit and glory goes to the Originator first and foremost.

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Essentially Doing the will of God is also understanding the Authority of God and that does not come or originate of Jesus but of The Father alone.

According to the will and authority of God by the law and the prophets Jesus created nothing.

Also

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

The Commandments of God which reveal the Authority of God does not conform to the trinitarian creed of men; So more than likely the answers you received is not the answers you want to hear.

How can you hope to make a distinction between the Word and the Author of the Word?

'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.' [John 1:1,2]

When you, lymus, will or decide something in your mind, there comes a point at which you have to decide whether or not to express that will. The common form of expression by humans is to speak WORDS. Your word is an expression of what you think, and who you are, because the words are yours, and yours alone.

You're trying to argue that God is not his Word. Yet, we only know God through his Word, which is spiritual.

1 John 5:7.'For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.'
 

Iymus

Active Member
How can you hope to make a distinction between the Word and the Author of the Word?

'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.' [John 1:1,2]

When you, lymus, will or decide something in your mind, there comes a point at which you have to decide whether or not to express that will. The common form of expression by humans is to speak WORDS. Your word is an expression of what you think, and who you are, because the words are yours, and yours alone.

You're trying to argue that God is not his Word. Yet, we only know God through his Word, which is spiritual.

1 John 5:7.'For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.'

Because I used to be Trinitarian, I believe I can understand that your above post is actually you conceding; Simply observations and perception based on the flow of the chat and knowing the mindset of Trinitarians.

0.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


1. God is himself. The Word is himself.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
---------

2. God is Originator of Life. The Word is beginning of his Creation.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

3. You are trying to argue That God is not One above all but Three in equality "Father , Son, Holy Spirit". The Holy Spirit and Son does The Will of The Father because

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

4. God sent his only begotten Son "John 3:16"

5. God sent his only begotten Son and Holy Spirit.

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

6. The Word did not do his own will, neither was he subject unto his own authority because he himself is not God.

1Co 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

7. The Word followed the commandments / authority / will of God, which are of The Father because he himself is God.

Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
3. You are trying to argue That God is not One above all but Three in equality "Father , Son, Holy Spirit". The Holy Spirit and Son does The Will of The Father because

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Without realising it, you are quoting scriptures that prove the trinitarian position.

The trinitarian position holds that there is one God, one Holy Spirit, that is above, amongst and within. The Spirit of the Father is the same in essence to the Spirit of the Son, and to the gift of Holy Spirit sent by the Father and Son. The difference between the three is proximity to the human body, soul and spirit. The Father is invisible and distant (except he reveal himself); the Son comes amongst us, as the image and glory of God; the Holy Spirit is known to us individually and personally, and holds us in a bond of fellowship.

As I said before, the Holy Spirit as Comforter points to the Son, and the Son points to the Father. Ultimately, the whole point of God's plan of redemption, is to draw the lost back into the family of God's ONE Spirit.

Unitarians claim to believe in the Son of God, but according to their theology he is not a true Saviour. If they knew him they would be born-again of his Spirit. Yet, I have never met a unitarian who is born-again, or who understands what it means to be born-again. How can you be born-again if you don't believe that the Holy Spirit (God) can dwell in a human being?
 

Iymus

Active Member
Without realising it, you are quoting scriptures that prove the trinitarian position.

The trinitarian position holds that there is one God, one Holy Spirit, that is above, amongst and within. The Spirit of the Father is the same in essence to the Spirit of the Son, and to the gift of Holy Spirit sent by the Father and Son. The difference between the three is proximity to the human body, soul and spirit. The Father is invisible and distant (except he reveal himself); the Son comes amongst us, as the image and glory of God; the Holy Spirit is known to us individually and personally, and holds us in a bond of fellowship.

As I said before, the Holy Spirit as Comforter points to the Son, and the Son points to the Father. Ultimately, the whole point of God's plan of redemption, is to draw the lost back into the family of God's ONE Spirit.

Unitarians claim to believe in the Son of God, but according to their theology he is not a true Saviour. If they knew him they would be born-again of his Spirit. Yet, I have never met a unitarian who is born-again, or who understands what it means to be born-again. How can you be born-again if you don't believe that the Holy Spirit (God) can dwell in a human being?

1. Above all also means that God is Greater and Head of his only begotten Son.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

----------------

2. Greater = Above

Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

-----------------

3. Head = Above

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

--------------------

4. Will of God and Commandments of God are of The Father because The Father is the only true God.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
-----------------------------
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
1. Above all also means that God is Greater and Head of his only begotten Son.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

----------------

2. Greater = Above

Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

-----------------

3. Head = Above

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

--------------------

4. Will of God and Commandments of God are of The Father because The Father is the only true God.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
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I have no problem with any of these scriptures! They all make perfect sense. What doesn't make perfect sense is your commentary on these scriptures!

Until his resurrection, Jesus lived as a mortal human being. Jesus had a body, a soul, and a spirit. He was fully human. On receiving the Holy Spirit at baptism, he also had the fulness of the Godhead bodily. He was, therefore, fully human as well as fully God. The term used to explain this mediatorial position is Son of God.

Jesus Christ lives as the Son of God, knowing that his throne, the throne of his Father, is in heaven. Of course he prays to his Father, for his father is greater (not being restricted by time and space, or the limitations of the flesh). But Jesus Christ is still able to claim equality with God in Spirit - John 10:30.

Throughout the Gospels we find two perspectives; the perspective of man, and the perspective of God. It's important that these two perspectives are understood and recognised. Let's take your example from Mark. When the man approached Jesus and said, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?, Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Do you not see that Jesus was testing the man by making him reflect on his own words and faith. If Jesus is perfectly good, then he must also be God, for only God is perfectly good.

By claiming that Jesus is not God, you are actually being tested in the same way as the man who approached Jesus. Jesus is asking you, Who do you say that I am? You are answering, I think you're a good man, but you're not God. In other words, I don't think that you [Jesus] are perfectly good!

There must be another syllogism here:
P1. God alone is good [Mark10:18]
P2. Jesus is good [1 Peter 2:22]
C. Therefore, Jesus is God [Isaiah 9:6]
 

Iymus

Active Member
I have no problem with any of these scriptures! They all make perfect sense. What doesn't make perfect sense is your commentary on these scriptures!

Until his resurrection, Jesus lived as a mortal human being. Jesus had a body, a soul, and a spirit. He was fully human. On receiving the Holy Spirit at baptism, he also had the fulness of the Godhead bodily. He was, therefore, fully human as well as fully God. The term used to explain this mediatorial position is Son of God.

Jesus Christ lives as the Son of God, knowing that his throne, the throne of his Father, is in heaven. Of course he prays to his Father, for his father is greater (not being restricted by time and space, or the limitations of the flesh). But Jesus Christ is still able to claim equality with God in Spirit - John 10:30.

Throughout the Gospels we find two perspectives; the perspective of man, and the perspective of God. It's important that these two perspectives are understood and recognised. Let's take your example from Mark. When the man approached Jesus and said, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?, Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Do you not see that Jesus was testing the man by making him reflect on his own words and faith. If Jesus is perfectly good, then he must also be God, for only God is perfectly good.

By claiming that Jesus is not God, you are actually being tested in the same way as the man who approached Jesus. Jesus is asking you, Who do you say that I am? You are answering, I think you're a good man, but you're not God. In other words, I don't think that you [Jesus] are perfectly good!

There must be another syllogism here:
P1. God alone is good [Mark10:18]
P2. Jesus is good [1 Peter 2:22]
C. Therefore, Jesus is God [Isaiah 9:6]

To those of opposing view of course I am using my own commentary.

In "Mar 10:18", you are ignoring pronouns.

In "1 Peter 2:22", A man that does not sin is a man that does not sin.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

In "Isa 9:6" I recommend you get the interpretation from Jews or those that clearly understand Deu 6:4. It is there records and culture first and foremost

Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
To those of opposing view of course I am using my own commentary.

In "Mar 10:18", you are ignoring pronouns.

In "1 Peter 2:22", A man that does not sin is a man that does not sin.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

In "Isa 9:6" I recommend you get the interpretation from Jews or those that clearly understand Deu 6:4. It is there records and culture first and foremost

Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

What you seem to overlook in your resort to Jewish exegesis is that the New Testament was also written by Jews. These were the Jews who recognised their Messiah's appearance and followed the Way prepared by God.

Your own position is a precarious one, for on the one hand you claim to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, yet you deny his divinity. When it comes to the crunch, you even deny the prophecies that point to his coming.

I fail to understand why you quote from the New Testament when you clearly don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Being the Son of God involves having the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

In John 4:23, quoted above, it states that true worship is 'in spirit and truth', yet you cannot hope to worship in spirit and truth unless you are first born-again of God's Spirit! Being born-again is not possible unless you first believe that Jesus Christ is able and willing to send His Spirit in baptism. The Spirit He sends is God's Spirit, the Holy Spirit.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
1. Above all also means that God is Greater and Head of his only begotten Son.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

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2. Greater = Above

Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

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3. Head = Above

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

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4. Will of God and Commandments of God are of The Father because The Father is the only true God.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
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According to those Scriptures, God sent Jesus, Jesus is God's servant, the Father is greater than Jesus, God is the head of Christ.
According to Trinitarianism, the Father and son are co-equal.:confused:
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
What you seem to overlook in your resort to Jewish exegesis is that the New Testament was also written by Jews. These were the Jews who recognised their Messiah's appearance and followed the Way prepared by God.

Your own position is a precarious one, for on the one hand you claim to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, yet you deny his divinity. When it comes to the crunch, you even deny the prophecies that point to his coming.

I fail to understand why you quote from the New Testament when you clearly don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Being the Son of God involves having the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

In John 4:23, quoted above, it states that true worship is 'in spirit and truth', yet you cannot hope to worship in spirit and truth unless you are first born-again of God's Spirit! Being born-again is not possible unless you first believe that Jesus Christ is able and willing to send His Spirit in baptism. The Spirit He sends is God's Spirit, the Holy Spirit.
Eternally begotten is a contradiction within itself. Eternal son is an absurd idea because eternity refers to having no beginning while son and begotten refers to having a beginning.
Jesus, called "the son of the Highest" had his first beginning(begotten) by being conceived in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit. He had his second beginning(begotten) when he was born from the dead.
When God says "This day have I begotten thee" it refers to Jesus' resurrection from the dead as is clearly seen in the following passage:

Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

According to Luke, the second psalm where it is said: "Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee" refers to God raising up Jesus from the dead.
 
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