Jim
Nets of Wonder
I told you, I’m not trying to be an ally. As for why I’m doing this, I’ll try to explain it to you if you’re really asking. Are you?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Baha’i Faith, homosexuality, and censorship
- Thread starter Jim
- Start date
PoetPhilosopher
Veteran Member
Jim
Nets of Wonder
if I answer that question, will you read my answer, carefully and thoughtfully, trying to to understand what I’m really trying to say?
Jim
Nets of Wonder
The point I want to make in this thread is that I don’t think that there is any rule in the Baha’i Faith community against promoting views contrary to Baha’i beliefs or teachings or what the House of Justice says about Baha’i beliefs or teachings, and i don’t think that anyone will lose their membership or be declared a Covenant breaker just because of the views they’re promoting, no matter what those views are. I’m only using my views about homosexuality as an example. I’m not trying to be anyone’s ally, or to change anyone’s mind about homosexuality or about people who don’t see themselves as straight men or women.
If anyone wants to discuss my views with me, I’ll be glad to do that, but not in this thread.
If anyone wants to discuss my views with me, I’ll be glad to do that, but not in this thread.
Jim
Nets of Wonder
The point that I wanted to make in this thread is that I don’t think there’s any rule from Baha’i scriptures or from the House of Justice against Baha’is openly disagreeing with Baha’i teachings or what the House of Justice says about Baha’i teachings; and I don’t think that any Baha’i will lose their membership or be declared a Covenant breaker for that reason. How many people disagree with me and who they are is irrelevant. Accusing me of opposing Shoghi Effendi and the House of Justice is irrelevant. How many people think that I’m contradicting Bahai scriptures and the House of Justice, and who they are, is irrelevant. What would be relevant would be finding a statement in Baha’i scriptures or in messages from the House of Justice saying that there’s a rule against Baha’is openly disagreeing with Baha’i teachings and what the House of Justice says about Baha’i teachings.
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
If I read this, I get the feeling that Bahaullah does not teach "all humans are sinners, not 1 is without sin" as I sometimes see others claim about their Religion.
Its up to you whether or not you wish to associate with Baha’is. For Baha’is there is no barrier to us associating with LGBTQ+ in a spirit of love and fellowship as we do everyone else. We see you as an equal, no less. I appreciate the GBT aspect of your identity is very important to you at the moment and although we have different ideas about that, I respect you choice.
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I was wondering how Bahaullah advises us to behave when people are bad to you, like abusive. Seems not logical to stay and smile to them nicely.
But then I see that He said "Associate in affectionate fellowship with stranger and friend alike". So "not associate" with those with whom "affectionate fellowship is impossible" seems to answer my question. Is this reasoning in sync with Bahai teaching? And what you don't see, you don't have bad thoughts about; an added bonus.
To me the Baha'i writings encourages the acceptance of all people with a genuine Love.
In the end it is up to us ask ourselves is there a greater wisdom to be found, if there is a greater wisdom, what form does it take and what does it tell us?
Some find it in faith, some find it in science and some find it in a balance between both faith and science. A few think they are a source of greater wisdom.
In the end to find a peaceful and lasting unity, we have to embrace our oneness and to do that, boundaries are needed, because anarchy and disunity has proven destructive, Wheras a Unity based in submission to laws has proved to build nations.
The way forward, is thus a Unity founded on principals and laws. The question we can then ask, is what wisdom is needed to do that on a global scale? Is it ours, is it science, or is it Faith? Are all those needed?
RegardsTony
I am not seeing it as opposition, I see Jim is challenging our thoughts.
At this time I, still see no clarity in what Jim has offered as to what is being challenged and if it has a balance with what the Baha'i Writings offer, thus at this time I still see it as joint learning.
Regards Tony
I would ask Jim. What is it that can be achieved, what is the end goal?
If one wants to bake a unity cake, all the ingredients need to be combined mixed and cooked and then baked at the right temperature, for the right amount of time for that cake to become what was intended by the baker.
Now if one comes along and tries to suggest alterations to the key ingredients, will the cake be what was intended?
Regards Tony
Jim
Nets of Wonder
I think that Bahá’u’lláh advises His followers, when they have questions about His revelation, to bring them to Abdu’l-Baha. Abdu’l-Baha says:
“Beware lest ye harm any soul, or make any heart to sorrow; lest ye wound any man with your words, be he known to you or a stranger, be he friend or foe. ... Beware, beware, lest any of you seek vengeance, even against one who is thirsting for your blood. Beware, beware, lest ye offend the feelings of another, even though he be an evil-doer, and he wish you ill.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, page 73
“Let them see no one as their enemy, or as wishing them ill, but think of all humankind as their friends; regarding the alien as an intimate, the stranger as a companion, staying free of prejudice, drawing no lines.
In this day, the one favoured at the Threshold of the Lord is he who handeth round the cup of faithfulness; who bestoweth, even upon his enemies, the jewel of bounty, and lendeth, even to his fallen oppressor, a helping hand; it is he who will, even to the fiercest of his foes, be a loving friend. These are the Teachings of the Blessed Beauty, these the counsels of the Most Great Name.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, pages 1-2
Jim
Nets of Wonder
If I answer that question, will you read my answer carefully, prayerfully and thoughtfully, trying to understand what I’m really trying to say?
Jim
Nets of Wonder
I do see a rule that I have broken repeatedly in these forums, including in this thread. It’s a rule against contention and strife. To avoid that, I’ve been trying to learn not to post until I can do it with genuinely friendly feelings towards everyone. I haven’t succeeded very well with that in this thread.
Jim, I have read your posts, a few times over, expecially on the later ones, to try to avoid any misunderstandings.
Why do you not give it in a way, so we can see what you are really trying to say?
I currently see that you see the vast majority of Baha'i, have not grasped the concepts in the Baha'i Faith as you see them, maybe it is part of your life?
Give it a go, see what can come of it.
Regards Tony
Last edited:
Jim
Nets of Wonder
I’ve seen some posts in this thread and in another that look to me like accusing me of opposing Baha’u’llah, His interpreters and the House of Justice. It isn’t clear to me if anyone really is accusing me of that, but however that may be, I don’t think that I am. I agree that there is a rule against opposing them, but I don’t think that I am breaking that rule, or encouraging anyone else to do so. I’m saying that there is no rule against promoting views contrary to Baha’i teachings or what the House of Justice says about Baha’i teachings. I think that a person can openly disagree with Baha’i teachings and what the House of Justice says about them without opposing Baha’u’llah, His interpreters or the House of Justice. I’m saying that it’s possible to openly disagree with Baha’i teachings and what the House of Justice says about it, without breaking any rules of the Baha’i Faith. I’ve used my views about homosexuality as an example of that, but it is not a perfect example because I haven’t learned to do it without any contention or strife with other Baha’is.
Apart from possibly one sentence in a message from the House of Justice, I personally don’t think that I’m disagreeing with Baha’i teachings on homosexuality or what the House of Justice has said about it, but some people think that I am, so that’s why I’m using it as an example.
Again, what I’m saying is that it’s possible for a Baha’i to openly disagree with Baha’i teachings and what the House of Justice says about them, without breaking any rules of the Baha’i Faith community and without any risk of losing their membership or being declared a Covenant breaker. I haven’t seen any arguments against that, that look convincing to me. The only arguments that I’ve seen are:
- Some people think that I’m wrong.
- Some people might think that I’m violating the Baha’i Covenant.
- I personally have not succeeded in doing it without ever falling into strife and contention with people around me.
Does anyone have any other arguments against what I’m saying? Again, what I’m saying is that it’s possible for a Baha’i to openly disagree with Baha’i teachings and what the House of Justice says about them, without violating the letter or the spirit of any rule of the Baha’i Faith community and without any risk of losing their membership or being declared a Covenant breaker. Does anyone have any arguments against that, besides the ones that I’ve listed above?
Apart from possibly one sentence in a message from the House of Justice, I personally don’t think that I’m disagreeing with Baha’i teachings on homosexuality or what the House of Justice has said about it, but some people think that I am, so that’s why I’m using it as an example.
Again, what I’m saying is that it’s possible for a Baha’i to openly disagree with Baha’i teachings and what the House of Justice says about them, without breaking any rules of the Baha’i Faith community and without any risk of losing their membership or being declared a Covenant breaker. I haven’t seen any arguments against that, that look convincing to me. The only arguments that I’ve seen are:
- Some people think that I’m wrong.
- Some people might think that I’m violating the Baha’i Covenant.
- I personally have not succeeded in doing it without ever falling into strife and contention with people around me.
Does anyone have any other arguments against what I’m saying? Again, what I’m saying is that it’s possible for a Baha’i to openly disagree with Baha’i teachings and what the House of Justice says about them, without violating the letter or the spirit of any rule of the Baha’i Faith community and without any risk of losing their membership or being declared a Covenant breaker. Does anyone have any arguments against that, besides the ones that I’ve listed above?
Last edited:
Jim
Nets of Wonder
I do. As long as you persist in thinking that I’m lying about my motives and intentions, there’s no way that I can describe them, that you will understand.
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Thank you, those are very clear.
And I can understand. The moment you allow angry thoughts in your mind, you pollute yourself, and will become bitter, very unhealthy
On the other hand if you allow the others to hurt you, you will get a lot of suppressed anger in you; also very unhealthy
So, unless one is totally detached from pain/hurt etc., I believe it is best to avoid people who hurt you (emotional) more than you can handle.