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Why do church scandals bother us so much?

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I think really, we hold religious people to a higher standard. We hate hypocrisy (unless of course it's our own selves). We have this notion that if religion is authentic, then the people who practice will be a cut above. But is that fair??

I think that to a certain extent it is. For those who wish to better themselves as human beings, who wish to become more decent, more moral, ethical, kinder, compassionate, loving and just individuals, the religions of the world have the tools to help them reach their goal. IOW religion is an opportunity -- the parisioner has the choice to avail himself of that opportunity.

OR NOT. Let's face it. People attend religious services for all sorts of reasons. It is only the minority that attend with a mind to change themselves for the better. The majority are not there to put in the work. They are there, rather, to network for their career, to socialize with the young marrieds group, to look for a spouse, to receive praise for their service to the community, to have the approved kind of family... there are a million reasons to attend that have nothing with spiritual growth. It's not that these are bad reasons. And I'm glad that they are there. It's just that these are NOT reasons that are going to lead to an individual living on a higher ethical plane than someone who is religiously unhoused.

Given that so many people are in faith communities for reasons other than religious growth, it should not surprise us AT ALL that they succumb to all the same problems and vices as those who have no synagogue, church, mosque, or temple. They are dealing with all the same temptations, and they have all the same character flaws that are not being worked on getting in their way.

So why should it shock us when the Church Treasurer embezzles? Why? Indeed he may even fudge on the taxes thinking he is helping out God's church.

These boards that cover up scandals of their priests and pastors? Please! Principals do this for their coaches -- why does it surprise us that a church would do the same for its own leadership? it's the identical human trait.

And I hate to say it, but yes, there are thieves, wife beaters, gangsters, rapists, and child molesters sitting in the pews. You sit with them every week unaware who they are.

Folks, people are people. Stop pointing these self righteous fingers. Sure when these scandals happen they need to be dealt with swiftly and appropriately. But let's all grow up a little bit.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
And I hate to say it, but yes, there are thieves, wife beaters, gangsters, rapists, and child molesters sitting in the pews. You sit with them every week unaware who they are.

One of the reasons that no eulogy is allowed during a Catholic rite of Christian burial.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
One of the reasons that no eulogy is allowed during a Catholic rite of Christian burial.
Forgive me. I don't understand the connection. Simply because we don't know everything about a person, you guys don't allow a eulogy? You don't allow family members to share? nothing? Can you elaborate?

BTW, as long as I have your ear, may I ask you a few questions, since I'm in a curious mood?

Do you do a Catholic funeral for those who did not receive last rites? Where is the line? Do you do Catholic funerals for those who committed suicide but were certifiably mental? (I'm think that this perhaps means that this rules out mortal sin?) I've had three friends in my life commit suicide but none were Catholic.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
New I think really, we hold religious people to a higher standard. We hate hypocrisy (unless of course it's our own selves). We have this notion that if religion is authentic, then the people who practice will be a cut above. But is that fair??
When we're talking about religious leaders and organizations, yes, it's most certainly fair.

Religion gets all sorts of special privileges in our society, both quantitative and qualitative. Religious organizations, ministers, and the donors who support them get special tax breaks. When TV shows have panel discussions on ethics, religious ministers happily participate, putting themselves forward as experts on the subject.

Anti-secularists who push for prayer before public meetings try to justify this by arguing that the prayer helps to set a proper tone for the meeting... that making the meeting more religious makes it better in its process and outcomes.

The religious school boards here that are funded by tax dollars (on a per-student basis) market themselves to parents by arguing that their religious nature makes them better at instilling students with a proper foundation of morality and character. They set a higher standard for themselves.

If some religious leader wants to be treated as just another guy off the street when he does something wrong, that's fine... but only if he's treated as just another guy off the street when he's asking for tax subsidies or special treatment from society.

OTOH, if he invites the money and social status when things are going well, then he also sets up a higher standard to be judged by when things go wrong.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
So why should it shock us when the Church Treasurer embezzles? Why? Indeed he may even fudge on the taxes thinking he is helping out God's church.
The issue there, I think, is that churches often don't have to make the same financial filings as legitimate charities, so there are additional checks against embezzlement - and other wrongdoing - for similar organizations.

The justification for not requiring these filings from churches is, presumably, that they aren't needed. When these sorts of things happen to churches, it just helps to underscore how their special treatment isn't really warranted by anything.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I think really, we hold religious people to a higher standard. We hate hypocrisy (unless of course it's our own selves). We have this notion that if religion is authentic, then the people who practice will be a cut above. But is that fair??

I think that to a certain extent it is. For those who wish to better themselves as human beings, who wish to become more decent, more moral, ethical, kinder, compassionate, loving and just individuals, the religions of the world have the tools to help them reach their goal. IOW religion is an opportunity -- the parisioner has the choice to avail himself of that opportunity.

OR NOT. Let's face it. People attend religious services for all sorts of reasons. It is only the minority that attend with a mind to change themselves for the better. The majority are not there to put in the work. They are there, rather, to network for their career, to socialize with the young marrieds group, to look for a spouse, to receive praise for their service to the community, to have the approved kind of family... there are a million reasons to attend that have nothing with spiritual growth. It's not that these are bad reasons. And I'm glad that they are there. It's just that these are NOT reasons that are going to lead to an individual living on a higher ethical plane than someone who is religiously unhoused.

Given that so many people are in faith communities for reasons other than religious growth, it should not surprise us AT ALL that they succumb to all the same problems and vices as those who have no synagogue, church, mosque, or temple. They are dealing with all the same temptations, and they have all the same character flaws that are not being worked on getting in their way.

So why should it shock us when the Church Treasurer embezzles? Why? Indeed he may even fudge on the taxes thinking he is helping out God's church.

These boards that cover up scandals of their priests and pastors? Please! Principals do this for their coaches -- why does it surprise us that a church would do the same for its own leadership? it's the identical human trait.

And I hate to say it, but yes, there are thieves, wife beaters, gangsters, rapists, and child molesters sitting in the pews. You sit with them every week unaware who they are.

Folks, people are people. Stop pointing these self righteous fingers. Sure when these scandals happen they need to be dealt with swiftly and appropriately. But let's all grow up a little bit.

Being a religious leader entails being socially seen as a moral authority. It should then come as no surprise that the judgment is harsher when they are found out to be acting immorally.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Forgive me. I don't understand the connection. Simply because we don't know everything about a person, you guys don't allow a eulogy? You don't allow family members to share? nothing? Can you elaborate

Eulogies are allowed for as long as there are people who wish to offer one, but after the closing of the Rite. The priest does not eulogize during the Mass for the very reason that unknown to the priest there may be family members and others who know the person not to be fitting the statement offered as that is know only by God.

Do you do a Catholic funeral for those who did not receive last rites?

It is no longer referred to as 'Last Rites' but 'the sacrament of the sick and dying'. And yes they have a funeral Mass. The very last sacrament the dying would receive is Viaticum.

Do you do a Catholic funeral for those who did not receive last rites? Where is the line? Do you do Catholic funerals for those who committed suicide but were certifiably mental? (I'm think that this perhaps means that this rules out mortal sin?) I've had three friends in my life commit suicide but none were Catholic.

Several years ago a priest in our diocese committed suicide and was given a Catholic funeral so yes.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I think really, we hold religious people to a higher standard. We hate hypocrisy (unless of course it's our own selves). We have this notion that if religion is authentic, then the people who practice will be a cut above. But is that fair??
Allegedly Jesus was really clear on this
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I think really, we hold religious people to a higher standard. We hate hypocrisy (unless of course it's our own selves). We have this notion that if religion is authentic, then the people who practice will be a cut above. But is that fair??

I think that to a certain extent it is. For those who wish to better themselves as human beings, who wish to become more decent, more moral, ethical, kinder, compassionate, loving and just individuals, the religions of the world have the tools to help them reach their goal. IOW religion is an opportunity -- the parisioner has the choice to avail himself of that opportunity.

OR NOT. Let's face it. People attend religious services for all sorts of reasons. It is only the minority that attend with a mind to change themselves for the better. The majority are not there to put in the work. They are there, rather, to network for their career, to socialize with the young marrieds group, to look for a spouse, to receive praise for their service to the community, to have the approved kind of family... there are a million reasons to attend that have nothing with spiritual growth. It's not that these are bad reasons. And I'm glad that they are there. It's just that these are NOT reasons that are going to lead to an individual living on a higher ethical plane than someone who is religiously unhoused.

Given that so many people are in faith communities for reasons other than religious growth, it should not surprise us AT ALL that they succumb to all the same problems and vices as those who have no synagogue, church, mosque, or temple. They are dealing with all the same temptations, and they have all the same character flaws that are not being worked on getting in their way.

So why should it shock us when the Church Treasurer embezzles? Why? Indeed he may even fudge on the taxes thinking he is helping out God's church.

These boards that cover up scandals of their priests and pastors? Please! Principals do this for their coaches -- why does it surprise us that a church would do the same for its own leadership? it's the identical human trait.

And I hate to say it, but yes, there are thieves, wife beaters, gangsters, rapists, and child molesters sitting in the pews. You sit with them every week unaware who they are.

Folks, people are people. Stop pointing these self righteous fingers. Sure when these scandals happen they need to be dealt with swiftly and appropriately. But let's all grow up a little bit.

It does not shock or surprise me at all. Religions are a sham
concocted by and perpetrated by those with something to gain.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
When we're talking about religious leaders and organizations, yes, it's most certainly fair.

Religion gets all sorts of special privileges in our society, both quantitative and qualitative.

It does, and the preachers do. And Elmer Gantry was
far from the only preacher to use his position to conceal
what he really was.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
That may be true in the USA but it most certainly is not the case in Europe.
Nowadays, local bishops and priests have more leeway to determine such matters, and Pope Francis is especially pushing leaving local situations to the local clergy, although not in all cases of course.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Basically I can agree with a lot of the OP but various religions note hypocrisy as a particularly bad sin.

Christians certainly do this. The NT is full of such verses. In the Quran, hypocrites are identified as worse than the enemies of Islam.

in the East, we find a sage, Tukaram, saying:
"Having long hair and ash-smeared bodies,
there are many frauds in variegated guises.
Tukaram says, 'Let their dead conscience be burnt;
it is no sin to thrash them!'"

I could easily be wrong, but I don't think Judaism and Buddhism single out hypocrisy as much as these other religions.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
I think really, we hold religious people to a higher standard. We hate hypocrisy (unless of course it's our own selves). We have this notion that if religion is authentic, then the people who practice will be a cut above. But is that fair??

I think that to a certain extent it is. For those who wish to better themselves as human beings, who wish to become more decent, more moral, ethical, kinder, compassionate, loving and just individuals, the religions of the world have the tools to help them reach their goal. IOW religion is an opportunity -- the parisioner has the choice to avail himself of that opportunity.

OR NOT. Let's face it. People attend religious services for all sorts of reasons. It is only the minority that attend with a mind to change themselves for the better. The majority are not there to put in the work. They are there, rather, to network for their career, to socialize with the young marrieds group, to look for a spouse, to receive praise for their service to the community, to have the approved kind of family... there are a million reasons to attend that have nothing with spiritual growth. It's not that these are bad reasons. And I'm glad that they are there. It's just that these are NOT reasons that are going to lead to an individual living on a higher ethical plane than someone who is religiously unhoused.

Given that so many people are in faith communities for reasons other than religious growth, it should not surprise us AT ALL that they succumb to all the same problems and vices as those who have no synagogue, church, mosque, or temple. They are dealing with all the same temptations, and they have all the same character flaws that are not being worked on getting in their way.

So why should it shock us when the Church Treasurer embezzles? Why? Indeed he may even fudge on the taxes thinking he is helping out God's church.

These boards that cover up scandals of their priests and pastors? Please! Principals do this for their coaches -- why does it surprise us that a church would do the same for its own leadership? it's the identical human trait.

And I hate to say it, but yes, there are thieves, wife beaters, gangsters, rapists, and child molesters sitting in the pews. You sit with them every week unaware who they are.

Folks, people are people. Stop pointing these self righteous fingers. Sure when these scandals happen they need to be dealt with swiftly and appropriately. But let's all grow up a little bit.

I've been finding that many religions or all of them have scams and cons going on in them. I know that some of the men in India who work in the motels do give free yoga sessions to women they are attracted to and get them in bed with them instead of giving yoga session.

I ran into Buddhists scamming through livestream not long ago. So Christians are not the only ones. But considering the poor people sermons Jesus gave it makes my skin crawl to see big rich pastors of mega churches.
 
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Riders

Well-Known Member
Sometimes there are reports like from the FLDS groups that literally use bible scripture and tell their 12 year old wives they are not obeying God if they don't have sex with them,use the scripture itself to force abuse on children. Its makes the hair on my neck stand up.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
That may be true in the USA but it most certainly is not the case in Europe.

Oh I think it is.

In 1989 the Vatican published the revised Order of Christian Funerals (OCF) for the United States. The long-standing prohibition of eulogies at Catholic funerals was again upheld and restated. A brief homily based on the readings should always be given at the funeral liturgy, but never any kind of eulogy. [OCF # 141] In the revised General Instruction of the Roman Missal promulgated by John Paul II in year 2000 (GIRM 2000), this prohibition of eulogies was again restated: At the Funeral Mass there should, as a rule, be a short homily, but never a eulogy of any kind
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Being a religious leader entails being socially seen as a moral authority. It should then come as no surprise that the judgment is harsher when they are found out to be acting immorally.
A doctor is an authority on health. If a doctor is in poor health, is his expertise any less?
 
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