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Baha’i Faith, homosexuality, and censorship

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
While I'm glad you do, the thing is though, that clarity and reality kind of makes us LGBTQ+ see the Baha'i faith as bigoted, prejudiced, and not living up to their outward claims. Even if we do respect Bahaullah and his writings.

Hi Kat.

I do not accept that the Baha’i Faith teaches bigotry or prejudice. This passage from Abdul-Baha goes right into the matter and this is what we are being taught. You decide whether it constitutes bigotry and prejudice or whether something else is intended. You be the judge.


“O ye lovers of this wronged one! Cleanse ye your eyes, so that ye behold no man as different from yourselves. See ye no strangers; rather see all men as friends, for love and unity come hard when ye fix your gaze on otherness.

And in this new and wondrous age, the Holy Writings say that we must be at one with every people; that we must see neither harshness nor injustice, neither malevolence, nor hostility, nor hate, but rather turn our eyes toward the heaven of ancient glory. For each of the creatures is a sign of God, and it was by the grace of the Lord and His power that each did step into the world; therefore they are not strangers, but in the family; not aliens, but friends, and to be treated as such.

Wherefore must the loved ones of God associate in affectionate fellowship with stranger and friend alike, showing forth to all the utmost loving-kindness, disregarding the degree of their capacity, never asking whether they deserve to be loved”

Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá
‘Abdu’l-Bahá

Are not LGBT+ humans and so included here? I say a resounding yes most definitely. So you are not an ‘us and them’ according to these teachings.
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
Hi Kat.

Just wanted to say that I consider you an equal and a friend although I don’t know you personally. You’re human just as I am and you are always welcome in my home.

Just because people have different ideas, think differently or have different beliefs doesn’t mean they can’t love and accept each other the way they are.

I have some new catholic friends and they know I’m a Baha’i yet they love me. They bring food to my home, they bought us curtains for our living room the other day and are going to paint our front door which looks bad.

I keep saying to them ‘why are you even associating with us because we are Baha’is but they say they love us. And you know Catholics say Christ hasn’t yet returned but Baha’is say He has so they should be shunning us not being terrific friends shouldn’t they?

It seems we are living in or have arrived in an age and are approaching a stage of maturity where differences of belief, thought, are no longer able to keep us apart. So with you I don’t see this ‘us and them’ barrier which is imaginary anyway, I only see you as part of my larger human family and would welcome you in my home and heart anytime as there is no reason not to as our common human bond is much stronger than our diverse beliefs as it is generic.

This is why it’s such a wonderful age to live in today because our common humanity is becoming the new religion which includes one and all sinner and saint atheist and believer. It doesn’t matter who you are you are our family (whether you like it or not lol)


We share conflicting ideas here because it is a debating forum but I want you to know that to me your humanity comes first and you are valued as my equal and sincere apologies if any of my words have caused you sorrow.

It's cool. Maybe I did get a bit heated because it's hard to sit there and listen to Baha'is talk about how part of their religious views is to see homosexuality as unnatural, and also hard for when they try to do the opposite like Jim and still see it as such, but try to more or less, metaphorically speaking, include us at the eating table.

I'm not sure universal recounciliation of all groups is the answer at this point in time. But it may be some day. I think there is a need for different groups right now because sometimes separation is necessary. For example, I am transitioning to a female. But there are people out there who are so transphobic, they tend to get heated or violent about it. Creating categories divides the people up in useful ways sometimes, I mean I know it's going to cause me distress to join a site categorized as far right, but less distress to embrace sites with identity politics and that are LGBT+ friendly. Also, until I know for sure where people stand on issues, whether they will embrace dogma with followers that have supported anti-LGBT+ movements, or their human side, I have to be cautious of people.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The more I think about it, the more I realize... one can't be a Baha'i and be an ally to LGBTQ+ both. It's a slap in the face.

To be honest you are probably right. At the very least it would be extremely difficult if not impossible with the Baha’i Faith as it stands. There is full acceptance of the reality that someone may have an exclusivity same sex orientation. However that state is seen as being a handicap to be overcome rather than fully embraced and legitimised. Its not hard to imagine that being offensive to many who identify as gay. Further the Baha’i Faith acknowledging that many people are unable to overcome their sexual orientation would then expect those who identify as gay to abstain from sexual relationships. That is far removed from same sex couples having equal status under civil law in many countries.

To be fair there are those with strong connections both within and outside the Baha’i Faith who would like to see Baha’i laws changed and become liberalised as they have been in some churches. There may be a couple of Baha’is like that on this forum. They may even highlight that the Baha’i Administration would be unlikely to take any action in many cases of same sex relationships. If an Assembly did intervene it would initially encouraged the couple (if both are Baha’is) to study and abide by both the law and spirit of the writings. The worse consequences would be loss of administrative rights. That means being unable to fully participate in Baha’i elections or attend the Baha’i nineteen day feast. For some people that may not be such a big deal as there’s all the other activities they could attend. There is no shunning of such a Baha’i as exists in some religions.

Many Baha’is such as myself argue that the statements made by Shoghi Effendi and the House of Justice are very clear on matters of legitimate sexual expression and the laws of marriage. Further the authority conferred on the institutions of the Guardian and Universal House of Justice can be derived from the pen of Bahá’u’lláh Himself.

Hope that makes sense. I’m responding to help you better understand some of the contradictory messages you may hear from Baha’is. Even conservative Baha’is such as myself see people who identify as LGBTQ+ as being equal to everyone else regardless, as we all have struggles in life without exception. Baha’i law only applies to those who identify as Baha’i.
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
To be honest you are probably right. At the very least it would be extremely difficult if not impossible with the Baha’i Faith as it stands. There is full acceptance of the reality that someone may have an exclusivity same sex orientation. However that state is seen as being a handicap to be overcome rather than fully embraced and legitimised. Its not hard to imagine that being offensive to many who identify as gay. Further the Baha’i Faith acknowledging that many people are unable to overcome their sexual orientation would then expect those who identify as gay to abstain from sexual relationships. That is far removed from same sex couples having equal status under civil law in many countries.

To be fair there are those with strong connections both within and outside the Baha’i Faith who would like to see Baha’i laws changed and become liberalised as they have been in some churches. There may be a couple of Baha’is like that on this forum. They may even highlight that the Baha’i Administration would be unlikely to take any action in many cases of same sex relationships. If an Assembly did intervene it would initially encouraged the couple (if both are Baha’is) to study and abide by both the law and spirit of the writings. The worse consequences would be loss of administrative rights. That means being unable to fully participate in Baha’i elections or attend the Baha’i nineteen day feast. For some people that may not be such a big deal as there’s all the other activities they could attend. There is no shunning of such a Baha’i as exists in some religions.

Many Baha’is such as myself argue that the statements made by Shoghi Effendi and the House of Justice are very clear on matters of legitimate sexual expression and the laws of marriage. Further the authority conferred on the institutions of the Guardian and Universal House of Justice can be derived from the pen of Bahá’u’lláh Himself.

Hope that makes sense. I’m responding to help you better understand some of the contradictory messages you may hear from Baha’is. Even conservative Baha’is such as myself see people who identify as LGBTQ+ as being equal to everyone else regardless, as we all have struggles in life without exception. Baha’i law only applies to those who identify as Baha’i and wish to follow the Teachings of Bahá’u’lláh.

There are certainly divides at times. LGBT+ is often opposed for religious reasons. And Baha'i still shows itself on a regular basis as more Abrahamic than universal and accepting. So do we take the initial knee-jerk reaction and judge based on the fact Baha'i may encourage some to have very anti-LGBT+ views, or do we delve deeper to learn that in some limited situations, where Baha'I authority hasn't spoken, they may be accepting of it until, if the Baha'i authority ever speaks, then they must follow that new unknown command?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I cannot understand God and Allah. They create the LGBTQ, and then they say either they remain celibate or be coined sinners, fit to be killed in this world and be condemned to eternal hell in their next. In Hinduism, it is OK. They may be people who for some reason been born as LGBTQ in this life. They may again be born as heterosexual males and females in their next birth. We (generally) believe in reincarnation. We have LGBTQ Gods and Goddesses and those who are partial to them. These deities are worshiped by all people, heterosexuals as well as LGBTQ.

There is a mention of such a case in Mahabharata. In that case, the mistake lay in incorrect prayer by the priest. The women wanted to be reborn as male. Due to the incorrect prayer, she was again born as a female. When she complained, the priest did another prayer and changed her sex to male (easy :)). The person went on to become a general of the Kaurava army and brave warrior (Shikhandi).

But what about Abrahamic religions? What can be said of their God and Allah? I do not know how Jews see the problem. Perhaps not very differently.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
There are certainly divides at times. LGBT+ is often opposed for religious reasons. And Baha'i still shows itself on a regular basis as more Abrahamic than universal and accepting. So do we take the initial knee-jerk reaction and judge based on the fact Baha'i may encourage some to have very anti-LGBT+ views, or do we delve deeper to learn that in some limited situations, where Baha'I authority hasn't spoken, they may be accepting of it until, if the Baha'i authority ever speaks, then they must follow that new unknown command?
Unless you became a Baha’i, decided to enrol and participated fully in Baha’i community, life why does it matter? You’ll find love and acceptance from some in the Baha’i community as with other faith communities. Some Baha’is you’ll have little in common with.

In regards learning about the Baha’i Faith or any religion for that matter do as little or as much study or practice as you want.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I cannot understand God and Allah.

Its the same thing. Your statement is like saying "i dont understand my mom and my mother".

They create the LGBTQ, and then they say either they remain celibate or be coined sinners, fit to be killed in this world and be condemned to eternal hell in their next.

Where does it say that? Have you done any analysis on this?

But what about Abrahamic religions? What can be said of their God and Allah?

Again the same thing.

I do not know how Jews see the problem. Perhaps not very differently.

Jews or Muslims dont represent God. They represent themselves. So if you wish to know what their God taught them, even if you dont believe their scripture has any validity that should be your foundation in analysis of the subject.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Then why care about us LGBT+ at all if you oppose us? Why make threads about homosexuality? Why not just identify with your Baha'i brothers?
Sorry, that came out scrambled. I’m not opposed to LGBTQ+ people. Do you think that I’m I’m opposed to political identity factions. That can be misunderstood too. If you’d like to understand my position better, I’ll try to explain in PM or in the Interview forum.

(edited to correct a typo)
 
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PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
Unless you became a Baha’i, decided to enrol and participated fully in Baha’i community, life why does it matter? You’ll find love and acceptance from some in the Baha’i community as with other faith communities. Some Baha’is you’ll have little in common with.

In regards learning about the Baha’i Faith or any religion for that matter do as little or as much study or practice as you want.

It matters if I associate with Baha'is. Although I'm not following the teachings, they are. Whether their lifestyle affects me is the question. Especially in cases where I get told certain things by them.

And I think it's an important question if we start talking about Baha'is and homosexuality. After all, I am the T and the G/B in LGBTQ+.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Can't confuse something that's muddled and confusing already.
It's not just this subtopic for me, but much wider. You couldn't imagine how many times I've asked for clarification on all kinds of topics within the Baha'i faith. Saying you respect all faiths, then dissing them in another post is a good example.
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
It's not just this subtopic for me, but much wider. You couldn't imagine how many times I've asked for clarification on all kinds of topics within the Baha'i faith. Saying you respect all faiths, then dissing them in another post is a good example.

True. I have let them off the hook in the past because I needed to think my thoughts through and was at a questioning time. But now, I made the decision to be Transgender and transition, so I really can't be overly passive to subjects that matter to me that are on my own field, unless they think I'm going too far and ask me to put my attention elsewhere.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
It matters if I associate with Baha'is. Although I'm not following the teachings, they are. Whether their lifestyle affects me is the question. Especially in cases where I get told certain things by them.

And I think it's an important question if we start talking about Baha'is and homosexuality. After all, I am the T and the G/B in LGBTQ+.

It also would matter to the entire planet and all people when these types of bigoted religions actually do grow. Pakistan is an example. Once 20% Hindu, it is now around 1%. Forced conversion, exodus, intolerance, have all played a factor. In the disputed Kashmir, there is, as we speak, a huge exodus back to the safe confines of Mother India.

I think the tolerant and loving people have a duty to stand up to bigotry and injustice to ensure it doesn't grow any bigger than it is now.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
True. I have let them off the hook in the past because I needed to think my thoughts through and was at a questioning time. But now, I made the decision to be Transgender and transition, so I really can't be overly passive to subjects that matter to me that are on my own field, unless they think I'm going too far and ask me to put my attention elsewhere.

Have a smooth transition. (I know nothing about it so don't really know what to say, other than to extend my best wishes.)
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
I’m not objecting to people debating about homosexuality in this thread, but I won’t be debating about it here myself, because that might create confusion about the point that I’m trying to make in this thread. The point that I want to make in this thread is that I don’t think that there is any rule in the Baha’i Faith community against Baha’is promoting views contrary to Baha’i teachings or what their Universal House of Justice says about them. I’m using my views about homosexuality as an example of that. For more than ten years I have been promoting my views about homosexuality in Internet discussions, views which some people think are contrary to Baha’i teachings and what the House of Justice has said about them. I have informed the House of Justice and other Baha’i institutions of my activities on the Internet, and asked them to advise me if they saw any need for it. No Baha’i institution has ever told me that I’m breaking any rules, or even that my views are wrong.

Part of what I’m saying about homosexuality is this:
- I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against all homosexual relations.
- I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against two women or two men calling their relationship a “marriage” or having it legalized as one.
- I disagree with calling homosexuality an illness. I’m a man, and I’ve fallen in love with men sometimes and felt sexually attracted to men sometimes. Once I was sexually aroused looking at a tree. I don’t see any of that as an illness or liability at all.

I don’t think that any of that contradicts anything in Baha’i scriptures, no matter how many people say that it does or who they are, if it isn’t coming from any Baha’i institution.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
It's cool. Maybe I did get a bit heated because it's hard to sit there and listen to Baha'is talk about how part of their religious views is to see homosexuality as unnatural, and also hard for when they try to do the opposite like Jim and still see it as such, but try to more or less, metaphorically speaking, include us at the eating table.
I’m a little confused about what you’re saying here, but if you’re saying that I see homosexuality as unnatural, that isn’t true. I don’t.
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
I’m a little confused about what you’re saying here, but if you’re saying that I see homosexuality as unnatural, that isn’t true. I don’t.

I'm saying, why go against Baha'i and go against their interpretations on homosexuality, when trying to make a case for LGBT+ and tolerance of them really won't go over well for some of us LGBT+ when you are part of a religion which is anti-LGBT+ even if the only reason for it is their other followers interpreting as such?
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
To be fair there are those with strong connections both within and outside the Baha’i Faith who would like to see Baha’i laws changed and become liberalised as they have been in some churches. There may be a couple of Baha’is like that on this forum.
Just for information in case anyone is wondering, if there are any Baha’is like that in this forum, I am not one of them.
 
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