Baha’i Faith, homosexuality, and censorship

Jim said:

Does anyone have any doubts or questions now, about where the censorship and repression of the views of Baha’is is coming from, in Internet discussions?

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I have no doubt Jim that you have taken it to a whole new level of confusion, that may not have been there prior to those posts.

RegardsTony

To the moderators: I’m grateful for you not moving this to the Baha’i DIR forum as some people might like for you to do. I did not intend for this discussion to be for Baha’is only, and moving it to the Baha’i DIR forum would effectively exclude me from posting in it, because registering for that forum would be drawing a line between me and others that I do not want to draw.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I have no doubt Jim that you have taken it to a whole new level of confusion, that may not have been there prior to those posts.

RegardsTony

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Tony ... I believe in the friendliness and sincerity of your intentions, and I have some idea of how this might be distressing you. One of my recent posts was aimed at helping to relieve that distress. I’m sorry if that failed.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I have no doubt Jim that you have taken it to a whole new level of confusion, that may not have been there prior to those posts.

RegardsTony

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I’m sorry for how this might be alarming and distressing you, and I’ve tried in one or two of my posts to help relieve that distress. I’m sorry if that failed. I’ll think some more about that.

I’ve seen a rumor being circulated in Internet discussions that the House of Justice is trying to censor and repress some views, that some Baha’is can not say what they honestly think in Internet discussions, without a risk of losing their membership or maybe even being declared Covenant breakers. Part of some campaigns against the House of Justice has been trying to convince Bahá’ís who disagree with what some other Baha’is are saying in Internet discussions, that they can’t say what they think without a risk of losing their membership or being declared Covenant breakers. I’m trying to show that the rumor is false. Do you think that the rumor is true? Do you think that openly disagreeing with what you and Adrian think about homosexuality and same-sex marriage puts me in danger of losing my membership or being declared a Covenant breaker? Maybe you do think that. Maybe I trust the House of Justice more than you do. If you don’t think that, if you don’t think that the House of Justice is trying to censor and repress views that it disapproves of, then why are you opposing what I’m trying to do in this thread?

adrian009 said:

No.

Although I feel your OP would be best in same faith debates it is clear that some of your statements are confusing for those on this forum who are either unfamiliar with the Baha’i Faith or have limited knowledge of it. My comments are to provide clarity and correct and misunderstandings.

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While I'm glad you do, the thing is though, that clarity and reality kind of makes us LGBTQ+ see the Baha'i faith as bigoted, prejudiced, and not living up to their outward claims. Even if we do respect Bahaullah and his writings.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I have no doubt Jim that you have taken it to a whole new level of confusion, that may not have been there prior to those posts.

RegardsTony

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Can't confuse something that's muddled and confusing already.

Jim said:

Tony ... I believe in the friendliness and sincerity of your intentions, and I have some idea of how this might be distressing you. One of my recent posts was aimed at helping to relieve that distress. I’m sorry if that failed.

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I have no distress Jim, I do worry for you and your health and wish you all the best, always.

I see what is happening is just a confusion that is not needed Jim. I will put it as plain as I can.

You need to make clear the ideas, without veiling any intent of what your are offering.

You are correct that a Baha'i can have their view if they state that it is theirs.

On the other hand, we as a community looking for a foundation in unity, can not make such important topics more controversial than they are in the current world understandings, outside what is already offered in the writings.

I can see no avenue for suggesting that same sex relationships can be considered in the Baha'i Faith, as it appears you are suggesting there may be an avenue for this, if sexual relations are not involved, or if official marriage is not involved.

So try to say clearly what you are saying and in that way clear answers can be given.

Regards Tony

KAT-KAT said:

Can't confuse something that's muddled and confusing already.

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I personally see there are no grey areas in the Baha'i Writings. Challenging to our current thoughts, would be a better ways to put it.

Regards Tony

The Baha’i Writings are clear on the topics mentioned in this thread and so I would refer people to them if they wish to know the official Bahá’í view.

Where I can I try and find the relevant passages concerned on a topic but people are encouraged to independently check anything we say against the Writings themselves as they are the standard. The Writings are the standard not individual view points.

The official Bahá’í Reference Library can be found here where anyone can search for any topic for the official Bahá’í view.


Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

Jim said:

I ask you again, have you been authorized by any Baha’i institution to call my views erroneous, in these forums?

From what you’ve been saying in another thread, some people might think that you have been authorized by a Baha’i institution to publicly accuse me of violating a rule of the Baha’i Faith, without first advising me about it privately. I don’t think that any Baha’i institution would ever do such a thing. Do you?

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I’ve already addressed the question as to where the authority within the Baha’i Faith resides in a post early in this thread:

Baha’i Faith, homosexuality, and censorship

The authority rests with the Baha’i writings themselves and with the authoritative interpretations and elucidations of Abdu’l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice.

This point has been reiterated by two other Baha’is who have contributed to this thread. I’ve never seen any Baha’is claim to be here on behalf of any Baha’i Institutions let alone to represent an official Baha’i position. The writings on many matters are so clear we have those who are not Baha’is using the Baha’i writings to question and correct your statements.

KAT-KAT said:

While I'm glad you do, the thing is though, that clarity and reality kind of makes us LGBTQ+ see the Baha'i faith as bigoted, prejudiced, and not living up to their outward claims. Even if we do respect Bahaullah and his writings.

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I appreciate your honesty in how you see the Baha’i Faith and why you would see it that way.

Although addressed to another...

Jim said:

I’m sorry for how this might be alarming and distressing you, and I’ve tried in one or two of my posts to help relieve that distress. I’m sorry if that failed. I’ll think some more about that.

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I can’t imagine any of the Baha’is here are even remotely distressed by differences of opinion. But I speak for myself of course.

Jim said:

I’ve seen a rumor being circulated in Internet discussions that the House of Justice is trying to censor and repress some views, that some Baha’is can not say what they honestly think in Internet discussions, without a risk of losing their membership or maybe even being declared Covenant breakers.

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I’ve never seen or heard of any such rumours here on RF in the three years I’ve been active on this forum.

Jim said:

Part of some campaigns against the House of Justice has been trying to convince Bahá’ís who disagree with what some other Baha’is are saying in Internet discussions, that they can’t say what they think without a risk of losing their membership or being declared Covenant breakers.

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Once again I’ve never seen or heard of such a campaign on this forum.

Jim said:

Do you think that the rumor is true?

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It sounds as if someone is trying to make something out of nothing.

Jim said:

Do you think that openly disagreeing with what you and Adrian think about homosexuality and same-sex marriage puts me in danger of losing my membership or being declared a Covenant breaker?

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No.

The point is you’re not disagreeing with Tony and I. You are disagreeing with Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice. Even so, I personally would be astonished if the institutions of the faith formerly approached you let alone removed your membership. As you’ve repeatedly told us, you have been posting views contrary to the Universal House of Justice for years and no one has done anything. Even when you have informed the institutions of your activities nothing has happened. I can’t see that changing anytime soon.

The more I think about it, the more I realize... one can't be a Baha'i and be an ally to LGBTQ+ both. It's a slap in the face. Doesn't matter if you have an LGBT+ family member you love, you still support them not LGBT+, or have donated some money to LGBT+ people. You're still like Chick Fil A who supported anti-LGBT+ stuff, then apologized, but that doesn't erase the sin unless you make a full transition into changing your ways, which I don't think they have, so many LGBT+s still won't touch those restaurants.

The best you can do is say your beliefs are a bit less conservative than most in your faith, that you occasionally try. Just be careful about trying to aid us because some of us are sensitive enough we don't do well around people who say they support us, but have too many inner conflicts to do so. We'll get our love and support other ways from people who know how to show it

adrian009 said:

As you’ve repeatedly told us, you have been posting views contrary to the Universal House of Justice for years and no one has done anything.

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You are misquoting me in a stigmatizing way. I have never said that I’ve been posting views contrary to the Universal House of Justice. I think that I might be contradicting some things that the House of Justice has said about Baha’i teachings. If you equate that with opposition to the House of Justice, that looks to me like putting the House of Justice in the position of an authoritative interpreter of Baha’i scriptures, which it is not and has never claimed to be.

KAT-KAT said:

The more I think about it, the more I realize... one can't be a Baha'i and be an ally to LGBTQ+ both. It's a slap in the face. Doesn't matter if you have an LGBT+ family member you love, you still support them not LGBT+, or have donated some money to LGBT+ people. You're still like Chick Fil A who supported anti-LGBT+ stuff, then apologized, but that doesn't erase the sin unless you make a full transition into changing your ways, which I don't think they have, so many LGBT+s still won't touch those restaurants.

The best you can do is say your beliefs are a bit less conservative than most in your faith, that you occasionally try. Just be careful about trying to aid us because some of us are sensitive enough we don't do well around people who say they support us, but have too many inner conflicts to do so. We'll get our love and support other ways from people who know how to show it

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If you’re saying that to me, I’m not trying to be an ally to LGBTQ+. I apologize if I ever gave you any reason to think that I am. I’m opposed to all identity factions, including LGBTQ+ factions.

Jim said:

If you’re saying that to me, I’m not trying to be an ally to LGBTQ+. I apologize if I ever gave you any reason to think that I am. I’m opposed to all identity factions, including LGBTQ+ factions.

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Then why care about us LGBT+ at all if you oppose us? Why make threads about homosexuality? Why not just identify with your Baha'i brothers?

Jim said:

Does anyone have any doubts or questions now, about where the censorship and repression of the views of Baha’is is coming from, in Internet discussions?

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Censorship? I do not see it anywhere. All people are mentioning their views freely (thanks to RF). Repression? How can one be repressed on internet? No one is being banned from the forum.

Jim said:

If you’re saying that to me, I’m not trying to be an ally to LGBTQ+. I apologize if I ever gave you any reason to think that I am. I’m opposed to all identity factions, including LGBTQ+ factions.

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Then Jim, as I have already said and will say that again. Your views do not match with Bahais. Why hang around them? For Bahais, LGBTQ are people with an illness that needs medical attention, as Shoghi Effendi said.

Aupmanyav said:

Then Jim, as I have already said and will say that again. Your views do not match with Bahais. Why hang around them? For Bahais, LGBTQ are people with an illness that needs medical attention, as Shoghi Effendi said.

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Exactly. And I'm not going to beat around the bush and say no members have provided evidence of this to Jim, they have. Either you're LGBT+ or you support Baha'i and their anti-LGBT+ views. We LGBT+ don't need coddled, just say you agree with Baha'i.

KAT-KAT said:

Exactly. And I'm not going to beat around the bush and say no members have provided evidence of this to Jim, they have. Either you're LGBT+ or you support Baha'i and their anti-LGBT+ views. We LGBT+ don't need coddled, just say you agree with Baha'i.

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Hi Kat.

Just wanted to say that I consider you an equal and a friend although I don’t know you personally. You’re human just as I am and you are always welcome in my home.

Just because people have different ideas, think differently or have different beliefs doesn’t mean they can’t love and accept each other the way they are.

I have some new catholic friends and they know I’m a Baha’i yet they love me. They bring food to my home, they bought us curtains for our living room the other day and are going to paint our front door which looks bad.

I keep saying to them ‘why are you even associating with us because we are Baha’is but they say they love us. And you know Catholics say Christ hasn’t yet returned but Baha’is say He has so they should be shunning us not being terrific friends shouldn’t they?

It seems we are living in or have arrived in an age and are approaching a stage of maturity where differences of belief, thought, are no longer able to keep us apart. So with you I don’t see this ‘us and them’ barrier which is imaginary anyway, I only see you as part of my larger human family and would welcome you in my home and heart anytime as there is no reason not to as our common human bond is much stronger than our diverse beliefs as it is generic.

This is why it’s such a wonderful age to live in today because our common humanity is becoming the new religion which includes one and all sinner and saint atheist and believer. It doesn’t matter who you are you are our family (whether you like it or not lol)


We share conflicting ideas here because it is a debating forum but I want you to know that to me your humanity comes first and you are valued as my equal and sincere apologies if any of my words have caused you sorrow.