Proof Jesus said he is not God in atleast 3 Gospel accounts

Iymus · Jan 6, 2020

QuestioningMind said:
Unfortunately this occurs:

Yes, and any God that chooses a method of communication where THIS can occur is a VERY poor communicator. Communicating a vital message by handing it down over centuries using oral stories that were eventually written down by fallible human beings in languages that are now long dead is a sure way to guarantee that the message will become virtually incomprehensible and can be interpreted in almost any way anyone might want. In fact, it's the method I would use if I wanted to create mass confusion, instead of understanding.

Whether God is known or not known people are going to make there choices. We cannot hold others or a higher power accountable for our own actions.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

For the sincere and disciplined, either the message will get to them or they will remain under grace.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

stvdv · Jan 6, 2020

QuestioningMind said:
Then please DO clarify what this is supposed to mean:

It needs 2 for the Communication. Maybe the "God part" is good, but the problem is the other part.
I do think all Christians will agree with this (that we can't blame God for bad communication)

If god isn't the problem, but rather 'the other part'... I have to assume that the 'other part' are the human beings receiving the message. It sure SOUNDS like you're blaming the students for not being able to comprehend the teachers lesson.

Okay, now you shift again to something new "me blaming the students". You are the one using the word "blaming" here. I was talking about "not blaming" ... remember? I was only talking about "problems in communication". I don't see the need to blame anyone. It's just what it is. Why blame God? I have never seen God. Would seem silly to me, if I would start blaming God. Especially if people define God as perfect. Then better first adjust the definition of God, if you like to blame God.

You read too much into my words.

First of all I am not a Christian.

But being here on RF it was quite obvious that quite a few Christians agree on 1 thing "God is good"
Some might go as far to say God is omniscient, omnipotent and some other omnis
I was having this in mind, when I was writing:
I do think all Christians will agree with this (that we can't blame God for bad communication)

I did not say that I agree or disagree with that. What I personally think, I have not yet communicated to you. And I won't. Because God is a bit too abstract to me, to start this whole blaming game, which I even find not interesting nor useful, when speaking about spirituality.

Is it, that you try to find a mistake in what I wrote? Or do you have issues with what I said?
Are you maybe an Atheist, and my words "Maybe the 'God part' is good" triggered you?
I did say "maybe", I did not make any claim, just looking at it from a different angle, that's all

Redemptionsong · Jan 6, 2020

Iymus said:
Him worshiped as God = No. Him worshiped as only begotten Son of God = Yes.

Our Lord is worthy of being worshiped as the Son of God; not as God.

Lord God alone is worthy of being worshiped as God.

Well, you might like to give this some more thought.

Luke 20:42,43. 'And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.'

Psalm 99:5. 'Exalt ye the LORD our God, and worship at his footstool: for he is holy.'

Are there two Gods worthy of worship?

stvdv · Jan 6, 2020

Iymus said:
We cannot hold others or a higher power accountable for our own actions.

We can

, and some do.

It could mean "we don't like to take our own responsibility".

It could also be a highly enlightened being totally lost in God. Seeing God, breathing God, being God. Not many, that advanced, are around nowadays. At last I have not met many. But from their POV it might be correct to say "I hold God accountable for all my actions". I am not that advanced, so I don't speak from personal experience, but it just seems logical to me, if it is true what the Saints have declared "Only God is real, all else is maya/illusion/everchanging".

This is a view as I came across while being in India.

Oh, check. I see we are in Biblical Debates here; I did not realize that till now. So just forget all about what I said, if it confuses you.

Although Jesus allegedly has said something along the lines of "I and my Father are One" ... if I am not mistaken. If that is true, then Jesus' actions are totally in sync with His Father's actions. So Jesus could "hold God (Father, Higher Power) accountable for his actions, because, as seen from Jesus His advanced spiritual state, His actions = God's actions.

This part is more in sync with Biblical Debate I guess.

Iymus · Jan 6, 2020

Skwim said:
What you call equations here, are better known in logic as syllogisms. A syllogism is a kind of logical argument that applies deductive reasoning to arrive at a conclusion based on two or more propositions that are asserted or assumed to be true. There are 19 valid forms, which combined with true premises produce a sound argument. Your first "equation" is one such sound argument :

God = Good
Jesus = Not Good
Jesus = Not God

In traditional form his would be stated as

God is Good
No Jesus is Good
_______________
No Jesus is God

For reasons not pertinent to this post, this particular form of syllogism is named Camestres, which in logic is stated as

All M are P
No S are P
_____________
No S are M

Unfortunately, your second "equation"

God = Good
Father = Good
Father = God

is not sound, because the conclusion "Father = god" doesn't logically follow. The form of your argument

All M are P
All S are P
__________
All S are M

is invalid. To see why, simply substitute different terms

All Butter is Yellow............... ("is" and "are" are interchangeable depending on the number in the statement)
All School buses are Yellow
______________________
All School buses are Butter

.

.

Is second equation more in accordance with syllogisms?

Simple Equation #2

God = Good
Father = Good
God = Father

Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

stvdv · Jan 6, 2020

Iymus said:
God = Good
Father = Good
God = Father

What I have learned in India is, that we never should put "God" on the left side of the "=" sign
Easy to understand; it would mean you limit God

Iymus · Jan 6, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
Well, you might like to give this some more thought.

Luke 20:42,43. 'And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.'

Psalm 99:5. 'Exalt ye the LORD our God, and worship at his footstool: for he is holy.'

Are there two Gods worthy of worship?

The Lord our God is The Lord of Heaven and Earth and Head of David's Lord. Lord God appointed his only begotten Son, lord / heir of all things; not God of all things. There is an only true God worthy of worship as a God: Not two but one or no other god in accordance with Deu 6:4 and Exo 20:3

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Skwim · Jan 6, 2020

Iymus said:
Is second equation more in accordance with syllogisms?

Simple Equation #2

God = Good
Father = Good
God = Father

As I said, it doesn't qualify as a valid syllogism.

Unfortunately, your second "equation"

God = Good
Father = Good
Father = God
is not sound, because the conclusion "Father = god" doesn't logically follow. The form of your argument

All M are P
All S are P
__________
All S are M

is invalid. To see why, simply substitute different terms

All Butter is Yellow............... ("is" and "are" are interchangeable depending on the number in the statement)
All School buses are Yellow
______________________
All School buses are Butter

Thing is, even if though the two premises are true the conclusion doesn't logically follow. All School buses are NOT Butter. So, while it may be true that Father = God, it can't be proven by your "equation." Ya gotta think up a better one.

.

QuestioningMind · Jan 7, 2020

Iymus said:
Whether God is known or not known people are going to make there choices. We cannot hold others or a higher power accountable for our own actions.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

For the sincere and disciplined, either the message will get to them or they will remain under grace.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

We can hold this higher power accountable for being a phenomenally poor communicator, whose poor choice for communicating his message has created thousands of different sects and often led to violence. Actually, it doesn't sound like a method that a truly higher power would make use of, more like a horribly fallible method created by fallible human beings.

LightofTruth · Jan 7, 2020

Iymus said:
Is second equation more in accordance with syllogisms?

Simple Equation #2

God = Good
Father = Good
God = Father

Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

When the man called Jesus "Good Master" Jesus rebuked him by saying, "Why call me good? there is none good but God".
Jesus therefore did not put himself on the level of Goodness with God because, as he said, "I can of my own self do nothing"
All the good and mighty works that Jesus did was from the anointing of God with the Holy Spirit and with power.

LightofTruth · Jan 7, 2020

QuestioningMind said:
We can hold this higher power accountable for being a phenomenally poor communicator, whose poor choice for communicating his message has created thousands of different sects and often led to violence. Actually, it doesn't sound like a method that a truly higher power would make use of, more like a horribly fallible method created by fallible human beings.

The problem for the many different sects is that they ADD their own ideas into Scripture rather than allow the Scripture to teach them.
For example, the Scripture nowhere speaks of an inherent immortal soul in man but yet the many sects teach that man was given an immortal soul at his creation.
The consequences of holding to that false idea are many. For one thing, it allows for the idea of eternal torment in a place they call "hell". Again, the term "eternal torment" is nowhere found in Scripture. So, you see what I mean?

Redemptionsong · Jan 7, 2020

Iymus said:
The Lord our God is The Lord of Heaven and Earth and Head of David's Lord. Lord God appointed his only begotten Son, lord / heir of all things; not God of all things. There is an only true God worthy of worship as a God: Not two but one or no other god in accordance with Deu 6:4 and Exo 20:3

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

You're in a real muddle here, lymus. You're trying to make a distinction between 'lord / heir of all things' and 'God of all things' - and such a distinction does not exist in scripture!

Deut. 6:4 'Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:'
If Jesus Christ is not Lord, or God, then he is not worthy of worship. If he is Lord and God, then he is worthy of worship.

The mistake you are making is not recognising that God was in Jesus Christ reconciling the world unto himself.
Colossians 1:19,20. 'For it pleased the Father that in him [Jesus] should all fulness dwell; And having made peace through his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.'

Hosea 13:4. 'Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.'

Was Jesus Christ our saviour, or not? It amounts to the same question as the one about worship. Our saviour deserves our worship.

Iymus · Jan 7, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
You're in a real muddle here, lymus. You're trying to make a distinction between 'lord / heir of all things' and 'God of all things' - and such a distinction does not exist in scripture!

Deut. 6:4 'Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:'
If Jesus Christ is not Lord, or God, then he is not worthy of worship. If he is Lord and God, then he is worthy of worship.

The mistake you are making is not recognising that God was in Jesus Christ reconciling the world unto himself.
Colossians 1:19,20. 'For it pleased the Father that in him [Jesus] should all fulness dwell; And having made peace through his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.'

Hosea 13:4. 'Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.'

Was Jesus Christ our saviour, or not? It amounts to the same question as the one about worship. Our saviour deserves our worship.

Sighs

1. David made distinction between Lord God his God and his lord the only begotten Son of God.

Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
--------------------

2. Jesus made distinction between Lord God his Father and himself.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
------------------------

3. Luke made distinction between Lord God The Highest "Most High" and his only begotten Son.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

----------------------------

4. Corinthians distinguishes The God and Father who is the Head of Christ from Christ.

2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
-------------------------------

5. Timothy distinguishes Lord God from lord.

1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
------------------------------------------

6. Romans distinguishes God from Jesus

Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
-------------------------

7. Isaiah distinguished Lord God from his righteous servant.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
----------------------------------------------

8. Jesus is not The Lord our God The Father who is The Mosh High God and Ancient of Days "Lord God"

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
----------------------------------------------------

9. God our Father is the True Saviour because Jesus came in his name / authority. So on a Macro level God our Father is my Saviour with Jesus his righteous servant being his appointed Saviour.

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
-----------------------------

10. God was in his Righteous Servant "Jesus" thru his Righteous Servant being subservient to his will and works; Thru his Righteous Servant declaring and representing him.

Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
--------------------------

11. Deflect as you like, but according to the New Testament "Deu 6:4" is referring to The Father not his only begotten son.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Joh 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

12. Commandments of God are of The Father because he is the only True God

Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Iymus · Jan 7, 2020

Iymus said:
Simple Equation #1.

God = Good
Jesus = Not Good
Jesus = Not God

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mar 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
--------------------------------------------------------

Closing verses

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

I used to be Trinitarian or believe Jesus is the Most High God at one point so I would probably try to refute my own post by saying that Jesus said that he is not Good because he was in the flesh of men.

However that would contradict a Christian Dogma That Jesus "The Word" is God because he was made flesh.

So either way I would shoot my self in the foot.

Iymus · Jan 7, 2020

Skwim said:
As I said, it doesn't qualify as a valid syllogism.

Unfortunately, your second "equation"

God = Good
Father = Good
Father = God
is not sound, because the conclusion "Father = god" doesn't logically follow. The form of your argument

All M are P
All S are P
__________
All S are M

is invalid. To see why, simply substitute different terms

All Butter is Yellow............... ("is" and "are" are interchangeable depending on the number in the statement)
All School buses are Yellow
______________________
All School buses are Butter

Thing is, even if though the two premises are true the conclusion doesn't logically follow. All School buses are NOT Butter. So, while it may be true that Father = God, it can't be proven by your "equation." Ya gotta think up a better one.

.

It seems I would have to be more specific and use Heavenly Father so the conclusion can logically follow.

#1

No Man = Heavenly Father
Jesus = Man
Heavenly Father = Not Jesus

Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Mat 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

#2

Heavenly Father = Lord of Heaven and Earth
God = Lord of Heaven and Earth
Heavenly Father = God

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Iymus · Jan 7, 2020

stvdv said:
We can, and some do.

It could mean "we don't like to take our own responsibility".

It could also be a highly enlightened being totally lost in God. Seeing God, breathing God, being God. Not many, that advanced, are around nowadays. At last I have not met many. But from their POV it might be correct to say "I hold God accountable for all my actions". I am not that advanced, so I don't speak from personal experience, but it just seems logical to me, if it is true what the Saints have declared "Only God is real, all else is maya/illusion/everchanging".

This is a view as I came across while being in India.

Oh, check. I see we are in Biblical Debates here; I did not realize that till now. So just forget all about what I said, if it confuses you.

Although Jesus allegedly has said something along the lines of "I and my Father are One" ... if I am not mistaken. If that is true, then Jesus' actions are totally in sync with His Father's actions. So Jesus could "hold God (Father, Higher Power) accountable for his actions, because, as seen from Jesus His advanced spiritual state, His actions = God's actions.

This part is more in sync with Biblical Debate I guess.

The lesser cannot hold the greater accountable.

Yes Jesus did say he and his Father are one but in the prior verse he said his Father is greater and later on he essentially said if he is not subservient to the works of The Father believe him not.

This means the context of him and his Father being one is One in Agreement. Also The Disciples of Christ are also One with The Father and the Son. See references below.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Essentially:

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Jayhawker Soule · Jan 7, 2020

Regarding "Proof Jesus said ..."

Believe what you will, but the fact remains that you have zero proof of anything that Jesus said,

Redemptionsong · Jan 7, 2020

Iymus said:
Sighs

1. David made distinction between Lord God his God and his lord the only begotten Son of God.

Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
--------------------

2. Jesus made distinction between Lord God his Father and himself.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
------------------------

3. Luke made distinction between Lord God The Highest "Most High" and his only begotten Son.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

----------------------------

4. Corinthians distinguishes The God and Father who is the Head of Christ from Christ.

2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
-------------------------------

5. Timothy distinguishes Lord God from lord.

1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
------------------------------------------

6. Romans distinguishes God from Jesus

Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
-------------------------

7. Isaiah distinguished Lord God from his righteous servant.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
----------------------------------------------

8. Jesus is not The Lord our God The Father who is The Mosh High God and Ancient of Days "Lord God"

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
----------------------------------------------------

9. God our Father is the True Saviour because Jesus came in his name / authority. So on a Macro level God our Father is my Saviour with Jesus his righteous servant being his appointed Saviour.

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
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10. God was in his Righteous Servant "Jesus" thru his Righteous Servant being subservient to his will and works; Thru his Righteous Servant declaring and representing him.

Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
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11. Deflect as you like, but according to the New Testament "Deu 6:4" is referring to The Father not his only begotten son.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Joh 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

12. Commandments of God are of The Father because he is the only True God

Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

It's important that ALL scripture makes sense, not just your selection! All the passages that you have quoted above are easily explained if you understand the manner of God's intervention in this world.

The problem created by all unitarians, such as yourself, is one of proximity. If God cannot dwell on earth, then sin cannot be overcome justly. God, and God alone, is without sin; therefore, only God is able to overcome sin and death.

God has a perfect and just way of solving the problem of sin and death. But ONLY GOD IS ABLE TO SAVE. The God who was above all, came to dwell amongst us, that we might receive within us His Holy Spirit, and be redeemed.

All the scriptures that you quote can be explained as part of God's plan. Father - Son - Holy Spirit; this is the demonstration of God's condescension and love. The Holy Spirit directs us to the Son; in turn, the Son points us to the Father. It's one Spirit, one God.

If you have some other idea of how God saves mankind, then please go ahead and explain! So far, you have not managed to answer the two points made in my earlier posts. Is Jesus worthy of worship? Is Jesus Christ our Saviour?

We can now add a further question; Is Jesus Christ without sin?

Iymus · Jan 7, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
It's important that ALL scripture makes sense, not just your selection! All the passages that you have quoted above are easily explained if you understand the manner of God's intervention in this world.

The problem created by all unitarians, such as yourself, is one of proximity. If God cannot dwell on earth, then sin cannot be overcome justly. God, and God alone, is without sin; therefore, only God is able to overcome sin and death.

God has a perfect and just way of solving the problem of sin and death. But ONLY GOD IS ABLE TO SAVE. The God who was above all, came to dwell amongst us, that we might receive within us His Holy Spirit, and be redeemed.

All the scriptures that you quote can be explained as part of God's plan. Father - Son - Holy Spirit; this is the demonstration of God's condescension and love. The Holy Spirit directs us to the Son; in turn, the Son points us to the Father. It's one Spirit, one God.

If you have some other idea of how God saves mankind, then please go ahead and explain! So far, you have not managed to answer the two points made in my earlier posts. Is Jesus worthy of worship? Is Jesus Christ our Saviour?

We can now add a further question; Is Jesus Christ without sin?

1. Much of your words are Romanticism in order to make one feel good and comfortable. According to the Bible God saves "or does anything for that matter" by his will and authority alone.

2. Anyone is worthy of worship in their respective position of authority, leadership , power , etc.
Jesus is worthy of worship as Son or Anointed of God: Not literally God himself.

1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

3. On a Macro or Volume of The book level Jesus is not our saviour but an appointed saviour who came in the name of the true Saviour and only true God to be subservient to his will.

Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4. According to the Bible, If Jesus literally claimed to be God, and spoke of himself as God, and did his own will and authority, instead of his God and Father that sent him then he is with Sin.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Joh 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

Redemptionsong · Jan 7, 2020

Alternatively, here are three referenced syllogisms!

P1. God alone is worthy of worship [Exodus 20:3,5; Rev. 22:8,9]
P2. Jesus Christ is worthy of worship [John 9:38; John 20:28; Rev. 5:13,14]
C. Therefore, Jesus Christ is God. [1Tim.6:14,15 > Rev. 17:14]

P1. God alone saves from sin and death [Hosea 13:4]
P2. Jesus Christ saves from sin and death [Titus 2:13,14]
C. Therefore, Jesus Christ is God [Titus 2:11]

P1. God alone is without sin (holy)[1 Samuel 2:2]
P2. Jesus Christ is without sin [1 Peter 2:22]
C. Therefore, Jesus Christ is God [John 5:26,27]

Proof Jesus said he is not God in atleast 3 Gospel accounts

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