Proof Jesus said he is not God in atleast 3 Gospel accounts

shmogie · Jan 5, 2020

stvdv said:
You just pick the verses that fit your belief

That's fine, as long as you don't superimpose them on others as being "The one and only Truth".

They are your truth, others have their truth.

"I and the Father are one, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father"

In th beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us "

Pretty clear to me.

shmogie · Jan 5, 2020

Iymus said:
I totally forgot I opted to no longer see his comments because of his stubbornness. Nothing against him personally. Naivety I can deal with but blatant stubbornness is something else.

The Best Foundation Trinitarians can have is

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

But when you start showing what is expedient they constantly move the goal post. Maybe I will create a post in the future addressing this specifically.

So, you are the judge of what stubborness is ? Non trinatarians are the most stubborn people I have ever met. They believe what they believe and do not want to be confused by facts. They even change the Bible to support their beliefs.

Expedience is your goal, rather than proper exegesis ?

Iymus · Jan 5, 2020

shmogie said:
"I and the Father are one, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father"

In th beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us "

Pretty clear to me.

Do not skip verse 29. The Father is Greater. The Son and Father are One in Agreement because the is subservient to his works.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

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If the Son is not subservient to the works of The Father do not believe him.

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

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A Son and Father are not One in the Same. One Originates and gives the other life. The other is dependent on that life giver. "simple concept"

Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

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Lastly those who do the will and works of the Father are also one with The Father thru Christ.

So The Father, The Son, and The Disciple of The Son are all one.

Iymus · Jan 5, 2020

shmogie said:
So, you are the judge of what stubborness is ? Non trinatarians are the most stubborn people I have ever met. They believe what they believe and do not want to be confused by facts. They even change the Bible to support their beliefs.

Expedience is your goal, rather than proper exegesis ?

You are playing the victim. I used to be Trinitarian at once so I can discern good from evil.

The Author of the Book of The Gospel of John is John, who is a man and mentioned no man has seen God at any time.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

John = Man
Man = Has never Seen God at any time.
John = Saw The Word
John= bare record / testified that The Word is The Son of God
=
The Word The Son of God = has not been God.

However was with God. Being Someone and Being With Someone are not the same.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
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I do not glorify the flesh. Because someone was made flesh of men does not make them my God, But to each his own.

1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

-------------------------------------

If you cannot see then I agree to disagree with you. That simple.

stvdv · Jan 5, 2020

shmogie said:
"I and the Father are one, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father"

Thank you for sharing. Makes me realize again how fortunate I have been

shmogie said:
In th beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us "

Pretty clear to me.

I am happy to hear that. Having things 'pretty clear' gives peace of mind. Peace of mind is very valuable,

QuestioningMind · Jan 5, 2020

Iymus said:
Simple Equation #1.

God = Good
Jesus = Not Good
Jesus = Not God

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mar 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
--------------------------------------------------------

Simple Equation #2

God = Good
Father = Good
Father = God

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
------------------------------------------------------

Closing verses

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Reading through the various posts on this thread only confirms what I've said for years: The god of the Christian bible is a phenomenally poor communicator. Here we have people who all agree that the bible is the word of god, yet even they can't agree on what this virtually incomprehensible book actually says. Almost makes you think that it's probably just the words of infallible human beings.

stvdv · Jan 5, 2020

QuestioningMind said:
Reading through the various posts on this thread only confirms what I've said for years: The god of the Christian bible is a phenomenally poor communicator. Here we have people who all agree that the bible is the word of god, yet even they can't agree on what this virtually incomprehensible book actually says. Almost makes you think that it's probably just the words of infallible human beings.

1 other option IMO.

It needs 2 for the Communication. Maybe the "God part" is good, but the problem is the other part.
I do think all Christians will agree with this

(that we can't blame God for bad communication)

robocop (actually) · Jan 5, 2020

Iymus said:
Simple Equation #1.

God = Good
Jesus = Not Good
Jesus = Not God

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mar 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
--------------------------------------------------------

Simple Equation #2

God = Good
Father = Good
Father = God

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
------------------------------------------------------

Closing verses

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Don't mean to contend, but Jesus supposedly had divine nature from His father and human nature from His mother.

QuestioningMind · Jan 5, 2020

stvdv said:
1 other option IMO.

It needs 2 for the Communication. Maybe the "God part" is good, but the problem is the other part.
I do think all Christians will agree with this (that we can't blame God for bad communication)

Sorry, but that sounds like the teacher who blames the children in his class when after giving a lesson half the children claim that what was taught is completely opposite of what the other half of the class claims was taught. When clearly it's the teacher who has failed to adequately communicate the lesson.

74x12 · Jan 5, 2020

It Aint Necessarily So said:
He didn't raise as many dead as he could have had he had that power, nor teach the people about using mold to extract life-saving antibiotics, nor even to wash their hands before delivering babies if he had that knowledge.

The fight goes on and every generation has it's own wars against evil. You know Jesus came for a specific purpose. That doesn't mean God didn't eventually give mankind the wisdom to fight germs. Not that I expect you to believe it but God gives wisdom in it's right time. All good and perfect gifts come from God. Not all battles that God has men fight are against satan or sin etc. Sometimes it's against medical ignorance etc. You can be used of God and not even believe in Him. And by the way; God rewards good also not just evil. So when we say "you reap what you sow" it's not always negative.

But Jesus came to do something far more important because the resurrection overcomes death itself.

It Aint Necessarily So said:
Or angry. Or ignorant of scripture. Or trying to escape accountability. I'm not sure that he was calling you stubborn, but I don't know why else he turned to that idea.

Maybe you're projecting feelings on people.

He was using that as a debate tactic and I countered it. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm over it.

It Aint Necessarily So said:
But this is just the milieu of religious apologetics, where people are easily offended.

I expect the old "stubborn" line from people like him. Who cares? I'm still going to call him on it. It's not personal; just a debate and if he wants to go for that old line; then he should be called.

Apparently he's already blocked me though. Whatever. People think they know scriptures and they clearly don't.

It Aint Necessarily So said:
I recently disagreed with somebody's claim that freedom was a central message of the New Testament. I presented contradictory scriptures, which were ignored. I was told that I was on a jihad and needed a Xanax, and that this was probably the result of being bruised by Christianity.

You should see how easily some atheists can get mad at me.

It Aint Necessarily So said:
It's de rigueur in this activity..I can easily imagine you becoming angry over my comment about Jesus' life being fairly ordinary, which of course was a position carefully considered, sincerely believed, and constructively offered.

Nothing more or less than expected. It's not like I haven't heard it all before. As long as you're not very rude about it; then you can disagree with my theology. Just relax because I think you're imagining me much more angry than I am.

As for how ordinary Jesus is. I don't agree and I notice you have to take away His miracles just to have a case. But, you'll notice the OP is no atheist but believes Jesus did every miracle. And he believes Jesus never sinned. So that's why I use that reasoning with him but I wouldn't use the same reasoning with you.

It Aint Necessarily So said:
But if one criticizes what another considers sacred, often none of that matters. You're become a bad guy who needs to be dressed down, as you were with the stubborn comment. This is how the deity of those scriptures sets the tone. Submission and believing by faith are virtues worthy of reward, and the alternatives deserve contempt and punishment

I might be the stubbornest person alive. But not in this case. If I'm stubborn for refusing his teaching; then it's good to be stubborn for a change.

Iymus · Jan 5, 2020

robocop (actually) said:
Don't mean to contend, but Jesus supposedly had divine nature from His father and human nature from His mother.

The Divinity and Supremacy of The Father is what is expedient because on a macro level and according to the volume of the book The Father is the only true God. many are called God but the Originator of Life / Source is the only true God. At the end of the day Jesus said plainly who his God and our God is. The one whose name and authority he came in. Many want to interpret otherwise for various reasons.

stvdv · Jan 5, 2020

QuestioningMind said:
Sorry

No need for sorry

QuestioningMind said:
but that sounds like the teacher who blames the children in his class

I was not talking about a Teacher who was blaming anyone or a Teacher who was claiming to be perfect

Iymus · Jan 5, 2020

QuestioningMind said:
Reading through the various posts on this thread only confirms what I've said for years: The god of the Christian bible is a phenomenally poor communicator. Here we have people who all agree that the bible is the word of god, yet even they can't agree on what this virtually incomprehensible book actually says. Almost makes you think that it's probably just the words of infallible human beings.

From someone from the outside looking in that would seem like a logical assessment. However that is for a reason. A deceiving god of this world is mentioned. I don't claim to know everything but I do suspect I have a strong foundation. Mostly what you are probably seeing are people arguing with the foundation such as Divinity of God and Commandments of God

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

robocop (actually) · Jan 5, 2020

Iymus said:
The Divinity and Supremacy of The Father is what is expedient because on a macro level and according to the volume of the book The Father is the only true God. many are called God but the Originator of Life / Source is the only true God. At the end of the day Jesus said plainly who his God and our God is. The one whose name and authority he came in. Many want to interpret otherwise for various reasons.

Sorry to disagree...

Iymus · Jan 5, 2020

robocop (actually) said:
Sorry to disagree...

Ok

3rdAngel · Jan 5, 2020

Iymus said:
Proof Jesus said he is not God in atleast 3 Gospel accounts

So what are you saying here? Are you saying we ignore the Gospel of JOHN which is the only gospel that witten by one of the APOSTLES that eye witnessed everything that JESUS said and did and the rest of the bible that shows the divinity of JESUS? Your claims to the three gospels seems to be an argument of silence - because nothing is mentioned in them on Christs devinity, then it must not be true despite the gospel of JOHN being the only eyewitness account of the four gospels and the rest of the bible disagreeing with you. Just saying I am not sure what you are trying to argue.

blessings

Iymus · Jan 5, 2020

3rdAngel said:
So what are you saying here? Are you saying we ignore the Gospel of JOHN which is the only gospel that witten by one of the APOSTLES that eye witnessed everything that JESUS said and did and the rest of the bible that shows the divinity of JESUS? Your claims to the three gospels seems to be an argument of silence - because nothing is mentioned in them on Christs devinity, then it must not be true despite the gospel of JOHN being the only eyewitness account of the four gospels and the rest of the bible disagreeing with you. Just saying I am not sure what you are trying to argue.

blessings

John is a man.

John 1: 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

QuestioningMind · Jan 5, 2020

stvdv said:
No need for sorry

I was not talking about a Teacher who was blaming anyone or a Teacher who was claiming to be perfect

I did not claim that you were talking about a teacher... it's called an ANALOGY. And if the method god chose to relay his message ends up with half his believers believing one thing and the other half believing the exact opposite it suggests that the method god chose is very ineffective i.e. god is a very poor communicator. And you stating that we cannot blame god for being a poor communicator is akin to the teacher blaming the lack of understanding of his students on the students.

3rdAngel · Jan 5, 2020

Iymus said:
John is a man.

John 1: 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

This does not respond to or address the post you are quoting from. The Gospel of JOHN is God's Word from an eye witness to the Messiah and scripture, which you seem to be denying. While the other gospels are not eyewitness accounts to the Messiah or to his divinity.

Iymus · Jan 5, 2020

3rdAngel said:
This does not respond to or address the post you are quoting from. The Gospel of JOHN is God's Word which you seem to be denying.

For Heavens Sake you are the one that brought the Gospel of John into this equation.

Jesus said he is not God.

The Author of The Gospel of John saw Jesus

The Author of The Gospel of John said no man hath seen God.

Jesus said he is not God and John does not contradict him unless you actively find ways to interpret and contradict otherwise.

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whether you agree or disagree i provided reference below.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Proof Jesus said he is not God in atleast 3 Gospel accounts

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