Is progressive revelation believable?

od19g6 · Jan 4, 2020

oldbadger said:
Hello again......... On several occasions you have mentioned the word 'spiritual'.

I have already asked you ...'Do you believe in spirits?' and 'Do you believe in mediums?'

Could you answer that, please?

Hello.

I know that I haven't been on the forum and I sincerely apologize for that. Really to be honest until recently I haven't gone on forums much and I don't consider myself that good of a writer. I'm just a guy that loves this faith and I try to honestly convey it the best I can.

So let's start anew because I really need to catch up, ha ha.

We do believe in spirits, we are spirits.

We do believe that some people do have legitimate psychic faculties, including mediums.

od19g6 · Jan 4, 2020

Milton Platt said:
Can you list some absolute truths?

Well some of the absolute truth are the foundational spiritual principles that each revelation has taught.

For example:

God is eternal.

The true human reality is eternal.

Listening to the Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations are the best way for divine education.

Forgiveness.

Do unto others as you would be done unto yourself.

Things like that.

od19g6 · Jan 4, 2020

CG Didymus said:
Od19g6, where are you? Let's see what Baha'is have to show a progression between the first four of the major religions on their list.

Don't worry I'm finally back. Even though I have to do a lot of catching up ha ha.

So let's start anew.

Bird123 · Jan 4, 2020

od19g6 said:
Hi everyone.

I know that I haven't been on the forum and I sincerely apologize for that. Really to be honest until recently I haven't gone on forums much and I don't consider myself that good of a writer. I'm just a guy that loves this faith and I try to honestly convey it the best I can.

So what do you say that we start anew because I really have to catch up ha ha.

So let me start with this question. Do you think there is a connection between progressive revelation and the world being ever advancing?

Holy books are creations of mankind. That is who they reflect entirely.

God's system, along with mankind's advancing does not depend on holy books. On the other hand, religion and those holy books are a catalyst that brings so many of the world's problems out in the open so they can be dealt with. After all, when one thinks they have God's blessing, they can justify anything.

The learning and growing will advance us all forward.

That's what I see. It's very clear.

od19g6 · Jan 4, 2020

Bird123 said:
Holy books are creations of mankind. That is who they reflect entirely.

God's system, along with mankind's advancing does not depend on holy books. On the other hand, religion and those holy books are a catalyst that brings so many of the world's problems out in the open so they can be dealt with. After all, when one thinks they have God's blessing, they can justify anything.

The learning and growing will advance us all forward.

That's what I see. It's very clear.

You know, it wasn't really the holy scriptures that caused the problems in human history. It was ultimately human selfishness and prejudice that was the real cause. Just like you said: "when one thinks they have God's blessing, they can justify anything". Over time things became convoluted and distorted. Some of this stuff is not the original words of the ancient scriptures.

Some of the reasons why religion appears in the world is because of education and unity. We believe in the harmony of science and spirituality. Those are the two pillars the teaches humanity about reality.

CG Didymus · Jan 4, 2020

od19g6 said:
Don't worry I'm finally back. Even though I have to do a lot of catching up ha ha.

So let's start anew.

One of the issues with the Baha'i concept of progressive revelation is it needs a manifestation that brought a new message from the one true God and a religion was formed around those teachings. But with Hinduism the only messenger ever mentioned is Krishna and Hinduism was already established. So slowly, we are all learning more and more about Hinduism. And come to find out, they had several, not manifestations, but incarnations of God. And the also have many Gods. And they also have many Scriptures. So it makes it difficult to fit them into the same progression with the Abrahamic religions.

oldbadger · Jan 5, 2020

od19g6 said:
Hello.

I know that I haven't been on the forum and I sincerely apologize for that. Really to be honest until recently I haven't gone on forums much and I don't consider myself that good of a writer. I'm just a guy that loves this faith and I try to honestly convey it the best I can.

So let's start anew because I really need to catch up, ha ha.

We do believe in spirits, we are spirits.

We do believe that some people do have legitimate psychic faculties, including mediums.

Fair enough.
That's just about what I believe.
There are(were) those cultures that believe that everything has spirit 'including everything'.... all matter, all lifeforms. I imagine that when humans lived on the edge of life, self-subsisting upon the sends of the seasons and the surges of the migrations that they were indeed closer to spirit than we could ever be.
I imagine that the Baptist was close to his world and his God. Clear sighted and content with everything apart from the dirt of corruption that he knew was the Temple priesthood.
I do not believe that we can be like that if we live in mammon, pretending to be 'it' for some satisfied feeling of righteousness. Oh dear...... I go on.

JesusKnowsYou · Jan 5, 2020

CG Didymus said:
Something stinks, but I don't think it's you. It's "unfortunate" for the Baha'is. It's unfortunate that if in context the verses about the "comforter" are about the Holy Spirit. It's unfortunate that Baha'is say they believe all religions are one, and then say Jesus did not rise from the dead. It's unfortunate that Baha'is say they believe in the Bible, but they say that somebody changed the story about Abraham taking his son to be sacrificed. Baha'is say it was Ishmael not Isaac. It's unfortunate that Baha'is are supposed to be clearing everything up, but they have only added more questions and reasons to doubt all religions.

If you try to stand for everything - you end up standing for nothing.

CG Didymus · Jan 5, 2020

Bird123 said:
Holy books are creations of mankind. That is who they reflect entirely.

God's system, along with mankind's advancing does not depend on holy books. On the other hand, religion and those holy books are a catalyst that brings so many of the world's problems out in the open so they can be dealt with. After all, when one thinks they have God's blessing, they can justify anything.

The learning and growing will advance us all forward.

That's what I see. It's very clear.

Baha'is don't believe many of the Bible stories, especially the creation story. And they don't believe the resurrection story in the NT. Yet, they say the messages came from God. I would agree with you. It sounds like people are making up things about God and Gods that fit their culture and society. Some cultures seem to have been stifled by their religious beliefs and didn't advance until they went beyond limiting themselves to those beliefs.

CG Didymus · Jan 5, 2020

od19g6 said:
You know, it wasn't really the holy scriptures that caused the problems in human history. It was ultimately human selfishness and prejudice that was the real cause. Just like you said: "when one thinks they have God's blessing, they can justify anything". Over time things became convoluted and distorted. Some of this stuff is not the original words of the ancient scriptures.

Some of the reasons why religion appears in the world is because of education and unity. We believe in the harmony of science and spirituality. Those are the two pillars the teaches humanity about reality.

The Bible was against every other culture around the Hebrews. The Egyptians, Philistines, and all the others. God told them to go kill them. And sometimes even kill the women and children of those people. So did God really tell them that, or did the Hebrews say God told them to kill them to justify it?

CG Didymus · Jan 5, 2020

JesusKnowsYou said:
If you try to stand for everything - you end up standing for nothing.

What is strange... they really don't stand for everything. They "confirm" that the Bible is the Word of God, but they don't believe it literally. They also say that Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken to be sacrificed. So, if they are right, not one Bible in the world today has that story correct. Of course the biggest story they say is not literal is the resurrection of Jesus. So they really don't stand up for everything in the Bible. They stand up for their interpretation of the Bible and that their prophet fulfilled all the prophecies.

od19g6 · Jan 5, 2020

CG Didymus said:
One of the issues with the Baha'i concept of progressive revelation is it needs a manifestation that brought a new message from the one true God and a religion was formed around those teachings. But with Hinduism the only messenger ever mentioned is Krishna and Hinduism was already established. So slowly, we are all learning more and more about Hinduism. And come to find out, they had several, not manifestations, but incarnations of God. And the also have many Gods. And they also have many Scriptures. So it makes it difficult to fit them into the same progression with the Abrahamic religions.

So, every revelation that came into the world had a divine Teacher, or else we wouldn't even know about the revelation / teachings. You have to be really careful with religions that are very old like hinduism. Potentially over time things get convoluted and are not in their original state. I've heard from a source that hinduism was originally in essence about one God:
"But just how many Gods are there? One.": Hinduism Upanishads

Vinayaka · Jan 5, 2020

od19g6 said:
So, every revelation that came into the world had a divine Teacher, or else we wouldn't even know about the revelation / teachings. You have to be really careful with religions that are very old like hinduism. Potentially over time things get convoluted and are not in their original state. I've heard from a source that hinduism was originally in essence about one God:
"But just how many Gods are there? One.": Hinduism Upanishads

"I heard from a source' isn't much of an argument, but carry on. Baha'is have been claiming to know more about Hinduism than Hindus do for quite some time on this forum. It's nothing new.

od19g6 · Jan 5, 2020

CG Didymus said:
Baha'is don't believe many of the Bible stories, especially the creation story. And they don't believe the resurrection story in the NT. Yet, they say the messages came from God. I would agree with you. It sounds like people are making up things about God and Gods that fit their culture and society. Some cultures seem to have been stifled by their religious beliefs and didn't advance until they went beyond limiting themselves to those beliefs.

We believe in the bible. But we have to be careful not take it totally literally. They're are mystical, divine and spiritual meanings in a lot of the biblical stories.
Like the creation story. How could you believe that story was totally literal? You can't because it totally flips on science. One again that story has a divine meaning.

One again we believe is in the "resurrection" story. But you have to be careful about that story. It may not be what the usual christian take it to mean.
Miracles are not decisive proof revelation. Because miracles are only good for people that experienced them right then and there. The miracles, say for instance Jesus Christ did, wasn't just mere spectacles, they were about divine teachings at the same time. For instance when Jesus Christ healed the blind man, while yes, He literally did heal a person that was blind, it was also a spiritual message. The message was: whoever is spiritually blind and can't see, Jesus Christ is the divine Teacher that will help you spiritually see.

od19g6 · Jan 5, 2020

CG Didymus said:
The Bible was against every other culture around the Hebrews. The Egyptians, Philistines, and all the others. God told them to go kill them. And sometimes even kill the women and children of those people. So did God really tell them that, or did the Hebrews say God told them to kill them to justify it?

So could you give me the source and context of: God told them to go kill them. And sometimes even kill the women and children of those people.

od19g6 · Jan 5, 2020

Vinayaka said:
"I heard from a source' isn't much of an argument, but carry on. Baha'is have been claiming to know more about Hinduism than Hindus do for quite some time on this forum. It's nothing new.

Well you have to remember, it's not like I'm a historian.
Revelations like hinduism is very old. Probably some of those scriptures is not even the original.

Vinayaka · Jan 5, 2020

od19g6 said:
Revelations like hinduism is very old.

Well, thanks for informing me.

Bird123 · Jan 5, 2020

od19g6 said:
You know, it wasn't really the holy scriptures that caused the problems in human history. It was ultimately human selfishness and prejudice that was the real cause. Just like you said: "when one thinks they have God's blessing, they can justify anything". Over time things became convoluted and distorted. Some of this stuff is not the original words of the ancient scriptures.

Some of the reasons why religion appears in the world is because of education and unity. We believe in the harmony of science and spirituality. Those are the two pillars the teaches humanity about reality.

While mankind values so many petty things, they incorporate it in their religions, schools and societies. They don't even know they are teaching this stuff.
You are right. There is a long way to go. On the other hand, one can cross the world even taking baby steps given enough time. Looks like this is the case.

Well, that's what I am seeing. It's very clear.

Bird123 · Jan 5, 2020

CG Didymus said:
Baha'is don't believe many of the Bible stories, especially the creation story. And they don't believe the resurrection story in the NT. Yet, they say the messages came from God. I would agree with you. It sounds like people are making up things about God and Gods that fit their culture and society. Some cultures seem to have been stifled by their religious beliefs and didn't advance until they went beyond limiting themselves to those beliefs.

I guess people want it all served up on a silver platter. Give them a box of beliefs. They can memorize them and the work is done. They are totally blind to everything but that box of beliefs.

Let's look at an action of God. God does not just give out knowledge. If God did, mankind surely would not be using fossil fuels polluting so badly. God places the knowledge and truth all around us. God knows there is wisdom acquired on the journey to discover those answers. This is incorporated in the entire world. I do not understand why people think God would make religion an exception. God didn't. Religion has never ever been about God.

How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured out how? Everything about God is out there too, waiting for someone to Discover it. In this time-based causal universe, God's actions can be seen just as in the case of how God has determined how knowledge is to be acquired. God's actions reflect God. God's actions can not be altered by mankind. It's real rather than a box of the beliefs of mankind.

Yes, true creation: God created the universe to unfold and grow just like a seed grows into a giant tree. There is true Genius behind all God's actions. The universe is unfolding in such a way that mankind will be able to figure it all out in time. Yes, mere stories of creation can not compare to Reality.

Well, that's what I am seeing. It's very clear.

CG Didymus · Jan 5, 2020

od19g6 said:
So could you give me the source and context of: God told them to go kill them. And sometimes even kill the women and children of those people.

So are you sure this is the one true God? And this message is a progression from Hinduism and Zoroastrianism?

Joshua 6:21 21
They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

Deuteronomy 20:10-16
10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace.
11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.
12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city.
13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.
14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies.
15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.

1 Kings 18
22 Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets...
25 Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first... Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire.”
26 So they took the bull given them and prepared it. Then they called on the name of Baal...
29 Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response...
36 At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: “LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command.
37 Answer me, LORD, answer me, so these people will know that you, LORD, are God...
38 Then the fire of the LORD fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.
39 When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The LORD—he is God! The LORD—he is God!”
40 Then Elijah commanded them, “Seize the prophets of Baal. Don’t let anyone get away!” They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there.

Is progressive revelation believable?

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