Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe to say that God would or wouldn't communicate runs contrary to the evidence. Certainly God does what He wants and the evidence is that He does not talk to everyone.
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Is this logical?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
I believe to say that God would or wouldn't communicate runs contrary to the evidence. Certainly God does what He wants and the evidence is that He does not talk to everyone.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe I don't agree with you. I see the claims as evidence. It may not be evidence that you accept or believe in but it is evidence just the same. As God I am talking to you right now. I know you will not accept that because you don't know me and probably were not in on that thread telling why I believe my experience is evidence.
Shad
Veteran Member
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So some old geezer says that God spoke to him. Other old geezers wrote down what that other old geezer said and did. Then, some other old geezers said that what those other old geezers wrote about that first old geezer is the Word of God. Then and another old geezer says that God spoke to him and said that the other old geezer was right on, but what was written about him was wrong, and that the old geezers that said it was the "literal" Word of God were wrong too. That now we should believe in the new old geezer because what he wrote is the Word of God. I kind of get it. If an old geezer says it's true, somebody's going to believe him.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, what he is saying is that no God has ever been observed communicating directly to everyone, but that does not mean that if God existed God would not communicate directly to everyone.
How logical is that?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I believe that is incorrect. We have no proof of God communicating with anyone, but there is evidence that God has communicated to certain people who I call Messengers. However, their claims that God communicated to them is NOT the evidence because that would be circular reasoning. In fact, Baha'u'llah said that His claim was not any part of the evidence and told us what the evidence was to support His claim.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Easy peasy.... God uses allegories to communicate spiritual truths.
No, I don't need to do that since my beliefs make complete sense. Otherwise, I would toss them in the trash can.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yep, as a Baha'i, that is what I believe. He was the return of Christ, the Messiah of the Jews, and the Promised One of all the religions. He was also a Messenger and a Servant of God.
Yes, the Messiah appeared when Baha'u'llah appeared, Imo.
No, just because I never mentioned it does not mean it is not part of the story. As a Baha'i, I believe that Baha'u'llah was the Lord of Hosts because that is who He claimed to be. If His other claims are true, then this claim has to also be true, logically speaking.
I am not going to take that risk, especially since it won't make any difference to you. If you really want to know how all the prophecies were fulfilled, you can read Thief in the Night. It is online to read for free. If you do not read it, I will take that to mean this is just a game for you, and you do not want to know the truth. the ball is in your court.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
As it reads it is incorrect, I will give you that, so I will rephrase it.
An atheist can know how God would communicate or to how many people even though an atheist does not believe in God, because an atheist can read scripture just as well as any believer.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Indeed, God only talks to those who He chooses to talk to, and that is not everyone.
Bird123
Well-Known Member
Your quote: Can a mineral understand a plant?
MY ANSWER: These are not children of God. How can they understand anything?
Your quote:Can a painting understand the painter?
MY ANSWER: A painting is not a child of God.
Your quote:God is so far above all His creatures, exalted beyond human understanding, and that is why nobody can understand God without an Intermediary.
MY ANSWER: Is this just an excuse to let others do the work for you? Can you really be satisfied with mere Beliefs? Beliefs an intermediary is needed. Beliefs this intermediary comes from God just because he says he does. Beliefs this intermediary knows what he is talking about.
This is the very thing I could never do. Cause I said so would never be the end even if that belief was what I wanted to hear. That is our difference. I am one who will not depend on beliefs. Beliefs merely point a direction by which one needs to search in order to Discover the Real Truth.
Maybe one needs to reach that point before one can really Discover anything and that's in all fields.
Your quote:beliefs do not preclude Discovery.
MY ANSWER: I suppose there are times people stumble on Discoveries. On the other hand, most Discoveries start out with beliefs then comes the work it takes to confirm that those beliefs are the Real Truth.
Your quote:What do you think the Real Truth is? How do you think you can Discover the Real Truth?
MY ANSWER: Want the Real Truth? How long you got? On the other hand, it would be merely a Belief for you unless you took the effort to Discover the Real Truth yourself.
Your quote:Logically speaking, if two different people say they have Discovered the Real Truth, and those Truths differ, how can we know which one has the Real Truth?
MY ANSWER: This is easy. The one telling you the real truth will point the direction by which you can Discover the Real Truth for yourself. Religion has corrupted the minds of so many when they teach people to value Beliefs over all else. It is really a selfish and evil thing to do. On the other hand, it is a lesson many need to learn. When one relies on blind beliefs, one can end up anywhere.
Your quote:The only way to know how God’s system works at all is through what the Messengers reveal in scriptures.
MY ANSWER: This is the way to know what another person Believes is God's system. They do not know God's system. Their beliefs do not add up. It reflects them, not God. Look at the system itself. The answers and Real Truth stare us in the face.
Your quote:How can you know any of this just by looking around in the world?
MY ANSWER: Have you ever put a 5000 piece jigsaw puzzle together? You will be lost at first, however, in time, the pieces will come together to reveal the Truth.
OK, let's be smart. In searching for the Truth one must be open to Truth one might not readily agree with. One must be open. Since all the physics add up completely, so must everything about God since physics reflect God's actions. Ebb and Flow of true knowledge. Example: If I were to build a car, every car will carry certain things: I place to sit, an engine, steering. Get the point.
No one pointed the direction for me. Perhaps that is why God stopped in when God saw my progress.
Figure out how it all works. Knowing the system will show you it's creator. It's not what those holy books are teaching. On the other hand they might have pieces within them, but holy books reflect mankind. God's actions reflect only God. I guess it comes down to what one wants. I wanted to know the Real Truth.
Your quote:I think Messengers are needed for humanity
MY ANSWER: Messengers are regular people. They speak for themselves, not God. Keep that in mind. God is above those petty things mankind holds so dear in those holy books. That is how I know they are not God.
Well, That is what I am seeing. It's very clear.
I make no demands on anyone. Be who you must! It's a part of the plan! I realize the journey to Discovery I mention isn't easy. It might be beyond many. On the other hand, I think everyone can learn something watching God's actions.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not believe that we are children of God because I do not believe that God has a family since God is not a person.
I do not believe that anyone can understand God because God is too far above humans, not on our level.
I do not believe that we are children of God because I do not believe that God has a family since God is not a person.
To me, it is not an excuse, it is reality. Beliefs have nothing to do with it. Logically speaking, an Intermediary is needed to bridge the gap between God who is so far above us, out of our reach.
I do not believe that the Intermediary comes from God because he says He does. That would be a dumb reason to believe. I believe because of who He is, what He did and what He wrote. It certainly sounds like He knows what He is talking about to me, but that is just me.
But you have beliefs of your own. You believe you are the one who has to discover the Truth. That is a belief.
With no direction, people follow their own way, and that way is not always the best way, and it certainly is not God’s Way.
That is definitely advisable, that we confirm that our beliefs are the Real Truth rather than just believing them.
So you have the Real Truth and if I believed you it would just be a belief unless I discovered it for myself? I could say the same thing; I believe I have the Real Truth but it would just be a belief for you unless you Discovered it for yourself.
So we both believe that Truth has to be Discovered by oneself.
I am pointing you in a direction by which you can Discover the Real Truth for yourself so why am I not telling you the real truth? What better direction can you point me in? Am I just supposed to go wandering around willy-nilly looking for Discoveries and hoping I will hit pay dirt?
I have no idea what you mean by Beliefs. Do you mean teachings of the Prophets? What is wrong with following those? How can that lead to selfishness and evil when they teach against that?
Oh, I get it now, you know about God’s system than the Messengers who were sent by God. How do you think you can know God’s system; that is the 100-dollar question? Look at what system? The Messengers do not have beliefs, they have teachings that they get from God. They reflect God’s attributes because they are mirror images of God.
What are the answers and Real Truth that stare us in the face?
With the puzzle, you can see that it came together. How do you think that you can know the Truth about God; that is the 100-dollar question?
If you are going to go by your own advice, you also need to be open to a Truth you might not readily agree with and you must be open. Fair is fair.
How do physics reflect God’s actions?
How do you think you can ever know God’s system or God’s actions? That is the 100-dollar question. Okay, so you can look at the Creation and say God created this so this reflects God’s nature. Then what? How does that tell you anything about what God is doing now?
Holy books are not teaching God’s actions, they are teaching how humans should live.
You are a regular person and you speak for yourself, not for God. What gives you the authority to speak for God?
I believe that the Messengers speak for God because they are not ordinary people; they have a human and divine nature. What petty things are you referring to?
Again, how do you know what God’s actions are? You still have not answered my question.
Shad
Veteran Member
Nope. That is just a claim pretending to be evidence.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No Messenger ever said that His claim was the evidence.
Shad
Veteran Member
Irrelevant.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Very relevant, because you said "That is just a claim pretending to be evidence."
Shad
Veteran Member
Requiring a person to say X is irrelevant was my point. What your messenger claims is evidence is just another claim not actual evidence.
Bird123
Well-Known Member
Clearly, you haven't understood a word I have said. You are not ready.
Religion has corrupted your view. You can not understand. No one is speaking for God, not me, not your messengers, and no religion. On the other hand, I have pointed a direction by which you can find God and not as a Belief. It's all in your hands.
Well, that's what I see. It's very clear. I see who you are.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Evidence by definition is evidence, a claim by definition is a claim.
Evidence is not a claim and a claim is not evidence.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I understood what you said, I simply disagree.
I believe that God sends Messengers who speak for God. I do not believe anyone can "find God" but they can find out something about God through what the Messengers reveal about God.
I think at this point it is best that we agree to disagree.