The Resurrection: Why does it matter?

blü 2 · Jan 3, 2020

PruePhillip said:
Correct. He was killed as a common criminal.

In the synoptics he's a religious criminal (Are you the the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? &c) and also a political criminal ('Are you the King of the Jews?'). In John the picture is not as clear. In Paul there's scarcely a picture at all.

PruePhillip said:
But it clearly was a Big Deal at the time.

On the exact contrary, if indeed it happened, it was a big nothing at the time, and certainly not as reported ─ the Jewish religious authorities involving the Prefect personally in a religious dispute would hardly have escaped comment.

PruePhillip said:
But the Jews were not going to give the oxygen of publicity to this event. Made no difference, Jesus' death, like His birth, meant Nothing to the Jews

A very funny way, then, for God to communicate with his own chosen people ─ indeed, bald incompetence, you'd have to say.

But as for 'giving oxygen' to the death, I've asked you before, assuming an historical Jesus, on what basis the Jews should have considered Jesus to be a messiah in the Jewish sense? He wasn't anointed, he wasn't a national leader or a war leader, he favored peace with Rome, so what messianic hint do you say the Jewish leadership missed, exactly?

Trailblazer · Jan 3, 2020

CG Didymus said:
It Jesus did rise from the dead, and he is the only way to get your sins forgiven, then Jesus is superior to everyone else.

Maybe you forgot the most important Christian doctrine. It was the cross sacrifice that wiped away our sins. The resurrection was a completely superfluous add-on, an unnecessary story that was added to the NT. Imo, the main reason it was added on was so they could continue adding things on, like the bodily ascension and the return of Jesus in the clouds.

None of this came from Jesus. Before He died, Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Jesus said "It is done!" when He died on the cross. Then the Gospel writers brought Jesus back to life in the stories, probably figuring most people would not catch on that they were just stories; and that is exactly what happened, most Christians believed the stories were true.

So, if Jesus was not going to return, what is the point of the bodily resurrection, just to show that Jesus is superior to everyone else because His body could come back to life, a body that would ultimately die anyway?

lukethethird · Jan 3, 2020

Trailblazer said:
It seems to me that the bodily resurrection of Jesus is a matter of great concern for both Christians and atheists.

Those atheists, just like those people that don't golf concerning themselves with golf all the time, what's with that?

rational experiences · Jan 3, 2020

Trailblazer said:
I do not think anything Paul wrote means that the physical body of Jesus rose from the dead; I believe Christians interpreted what he said incorrectly.

However, if Jesus never actually rose from the dead, what about all the stories about the empty tomb and those who saw the resurrected Jesus walking around, how do you explain those? How and why did they get written into the NT?

The reference in science, by a male using natural consciousness in a natural atmosphere.

Said God the stone radiating history physical mass equals but is not equal to the spirit gas body in the Heavenly mass metal UFO mass science attacked/radiating.

Walking, our life spiritually gets given a vision/image/voice recording. Which males who invented machine activated/caused. So machines can use/own cause our vision/image and voice to be recorded and transmitted. How Jesus the male body that had died in human DNA genetics attacked as a God O world wide history.....was male represented as the body image removed out of male existence.

Teachers in the name of Jesus as the experience were a multi male group, just as taught. Yet human victims as a victim is a one of. So one male was owner of the stigmata to his body which he displayed in public forums as radiating attacking his flesh...for without public scrutiny and public proof they had no support back then to stop Satanism. What that Group Healer/spiritual male aware philosophy had taught.
What science discussed as a self taught human lesson.

A male knew what the physical mass of stone was in radiation terms/radiating in a gas metallic massed atmosphere....radiating.

And then Mr know it all, egotist, said that he knew then how to make God O physical mass disappear also.

Yet if he changed the atmospheric mass gas natural body...….to attack God O and make stone disappear as its flesh, the body of God in science, then his own bio body would get attacked as notification.

The story of Jesus.

An empty tomb, means that the spirit that once abided as the gas inside of stone fusion was gone removed.

If a scientist today in modern life said to self, how is God the stone related to a sacrifice and be saved, sacred ICE is that answer.

When Earth was attacked in natural history, dinosaurs wiped out. Given eternal cell life in death and snap frozen...half of the snap freeze iced stone, that got snap frozen also in natural history, is why Earth still exists today.
For it got instant snap frozen/HELD.

Stone was held was ICE, and water, the spirit virtually of our life...seeing our life is mainly as a bio form mainly water.

ICE melts as it is today due to EVIL CULT/ufo science converting attacks, causes...as always taught as Satanism, the condition cult...….science history.

When ICE melts, the water/oxygen and microbial forms get put back, what our life in Nature uses......what got told....and it was told after the fact of the attack as caused in temple pyramid irradiation attack.

Trailblazer · Jan 3, 2020

Samantha Rinne said:
Trailblazer, I also think the other thing he would be annoyed with is "fanclubism" of taking his "No one comes to the father but through me" as a command that you must be Christian.

I believe that the only way to the Father was through Jesus during His Dispensation, and that is why Jesus said that, but it does not say "No one comes to the father but through me for all of eternity" and I believe that is where Christians went wrong. Because of this one verse, they have rejected the Messengers of God that came after Jesus.

Samantha Rinne said:
This passage means specifically that only Jesus is a personification of the true and eternal God,

I believe that was true during the Dispensation of Jesus, but not true for all time.

Trailblazer · Jan 3, 2020

lukethethird said:
Those atheists, just like those people that don't golf concerning themselves with golf all the time, what's with that?

You tell me and then we will both know.

Trailblazer · Jan 3, 2020

rational experiences said:
The reference in science, by a male using natural consciousness in a natural atmosphere.

Said God the stone radiating history physical mass equals but is not equal to the spirit gas body in the Heavenly mass metal UFO mass science attacked/radiating.

Walking, our life spiritually gets given a vision/image/voice recording. Which males who invented machine activated/caused. So machines can use/own cause our vision/image and voice to be recorded and transmitted. How Jesus the male body that had died in human DNA genetics attacked as a God O world wide history.....was male represented as the body image removed out of male existence.

Teachers in the name of Jesus as the experience were a multi male group, just as taught. Yet human victims as a victim is a one of. So one male was owner of the stigmata to his body which he displayed in public forums as radiating attacking his flesh...for without public scrutiny and public proof they had no support back then to stop Satanism. What that Group Healer/spiritual male aware philosophy had taught.
What science discussed as a self taught human lesson.

A male knew what the physical mass of stone was in radiation terms/radiating in a gas metallic massed atmosphere....radiating.

And then Mr know it all, egotist, said that he knew then how to make God O physical mass disappear also.

Yet if he changed the atmospheric mass gas natural body...….to attack God O and make stone disappear as its flesh, the body of God in science, then his own bio body would get attacked as notification.

The story of Jesus.

An empty tomb, means that the spirit that once abided as the gas inside of stone fusion was gone removed.

If a scientist today in modern life said to self, how is God the stone related to a sacrifice and be saved, sacred ICE is that answer.

When Earth was attacked in natural history, dinosaurs wiped out. Given eternal cell life in death and snap frozen...half of the snap freeze iced stone, that got snap frozen also in natural history, is why Earth still exists today.
For it got instant snap frozen/HELD.

Stone was held was ICE, and water, the spirit virtually of our life...seeing our life is mainly as a bio form mainly water.

ICE melts as it is today due to EVIL CULT/ufo science converting attacks, causes...as always taught as Satanism, the condition cult...….science history.

When ICE melts, the water/oxygen and microbial forms get put back, what our life in Nature uses......what got told....and it was told after the fact of the attack as caused in temple pyramid irradiation attack.

Thanks for sharing your ideas. Science is not a subject I ever studied, nor was spiritualism, although both are fascinating. You are talking WAY over my head, but hopefully there are some people here who will understand what you are saying and what you mean.

rational experiences · Jan 3, 2020

The Bible story is linked to the Temple/pyramid science of the ancients.

Re practiced after the Ice Age. Archaeology proved that all life on Earth a long time ago....totally destroyed. Human artefacts found deep inside of the body of Earth, that proof.

Moses story, stories written after the fact of attack......minds irradiated/bio life cell mutated….healing heard AI, machine voiced male recording and visions/images....seen and heard as the physical Genetical life healed.

So they wrote the advice and knew, that when life re evolved and the humans owning the healed GENETICS, scientists returned, as Satanists, that they would do it again. And it was proven true.

When you say to a lying evil CULT male science group history, the controllers of our natural life......science did not exist...for no machine exists built by itself. And it needs a human being male to build it...and own it and control it.....and you attacked us. And they say that a lot of strung together thinking male thoughts as stories made a thesis.

And they say to self......O SI R IS and ISIS as the ancient Egyptian attack and the sis......is living self proof that they thought of all the evil states to attack natural life with.

When human life and mind body gets irradiated we get sick, die from early age death, and our minds poisoned by heavy metals in the Earth radiated gases, forces our memories to be lost, and we lose our ability to remember and to speak or understand old languages....for we get harmed.

Jesus was just a story review about life being sacrificed attacked in CULT UFO science conditions that were named as Satanic....purposely chosen against the survival on God the stone O planet Earth.

Trailblazer · Jan 4, 2020

InChrist said:
The fact that it goes against science or at least human understanding is what demonstrates that it was an event God alone orchestrated. Only God the Creator of life can bring the dead back to life. Jesus made a point of telling the disciples that He was not a spirit, but literally risen flesh and bones. ( Luke 24: 38-39).

I understand that these are the Christian beliefs and there is no way to prove beliefs are not true, because beliefs are not provable or disprovable. So when someone says Jesus said this or Jesus did that, there is no way to verify that ever happened. Christians talk about it as if it was a fact, but it is a belief, not a fact. If it was able to be proven as a fact of history, atheists would be Christians.

Because beliefs cannot be proven true it is futile for believers to argue with other believers over differing beliefs. Imo, we should just allow people to have their own beliefs and love our fellow humans even if we disagree. I think this is what Jesus would want.

People normally believe what they have learned growing up and unless they are unhappy with those beliefs they will probably stay with them throughout life. They would have to have a reason to change, since nobody does anything for no reason. There is no reason for anyone to change unless they question their beliefs or get tired of their religion.

Trailblazer · Jan 4, 2020

PruePhillip said:
It matters for this reason: if Jesus really was resurrected then it speaks to the
hope that WE could be resurrected.

Why would anyone want to be resurrected from their grave and live forever in a physical body?
I know I would never want that. That would be hell, not heaven.

According to my beliefs, death of the body does not mean the end of life, it is just the beginning of a whole new life in the spiritual world, heaven, where the immortal soul take on a new form, a spiritual body. A spiritual body has none of the needs or limitations of the physical body, no more disease and no more pain.

rational experiences · Jan 4, 2020

The male human living on O one planet said that the planet history is natural and just O one.

That science discussed O Earth as being a stone planet, that created as that one entity O its own gas heavens from the eruption of its body.

Being what is said in science a O corrupted body.

The Sun in science was said to be a body that rebelled in the Universe and became a self consuming body, that falls out eventually into the deep pit of empty space.

What male science first said as the history, invention, theorising science....as male humans.

So they said that there is no other Deity accept O one....the stone planet as science themes.

The male said that God the one entity survived being attacked by the Sun that exploded and did not form an atmosphere....it formed a spatial attack.

And due to bodies of stone existing in space, already created, and were wandering, they released their stone, cooled spatial radiation by gas release and saved the O body of stone.

The story of how ONE the O stone body was saved by its own spirit...the gases.

How that science story original theme was taught.

A male in human science then said I will by my will....human and a scientist, change the body of God O the stone, and he did.

Which is named as MASS O MATHS, the numbering to remove mass and convert.

And he did.

So prophetically stone in space released its body....being what a stone prophet is.

It released its gases/spirit and the sacrifice of that stone wandering star prophet then fell to Earth the ONE body and saved it from male science attacking it.

As the told story against occultism....the state of science.

Where the story came from.

So a prophet was only a story about star fall of stone and how that body of stone had saved the O Earth in a known male caused science converting of the physical body of God the O Earth.

rational experiences · Jan 4, 2020

Trailblazer said:
Why would anyone want to be resurrected from their grave and live forever in a physical body?
I know I would never want that. That would be hell, not heaven.

According to my beliefs, death of the body does not mean the end of life, it is just the beginning of a whole new life in the spiritual world, heaven, where the immortal soul take on a new form, a spiritual body. A spiritual body has none of the needs or limitations of the physical body, no more disease and no more pain.

We are born from the act of 2 human being adults having sex.
We are not created in some male thinking thought conditions.

Science knows that after the multi living animal lives, 2 human beings as a statement in science as to be informed is told that it then owns its own life....as if it is added onto from an animal. Yet it is a whole human life, not an animal that is making that claim and lying.

For you are not living in the life body of any animal being....you are only a whole self, totally separate self thinking only on self behalf...as a living self present being.

Science tries to force coerce humanity into believing its fake stories told for machine reactions.....that do not in any human thinking condition own any condition that a natural bio life lives and owns, and it is about time that you all stop lying to yourselves about the stories you study on behalf of lying scientists, secretly interviewing everyone on spiritual forums

PruePhillip · Jan 4, 2020

Trailblazer said:
Why would anyone want to be resurrected from their grave and live forever in a physical body?
I know I would never want that. That would be hell, not heaven.

According to my beliefs, death of the body does not mean the end of life, it is just the beginning of a whole new life in the spiritual world, heaven, where the immortal soul take on a new form, a spiritual body. A spiritual body has none of the needs or limitations of the physical body, no more disease and no more pain.

Resurrected as in living again - in the spirit.

PruePhillip · Jan 4, 2020

blü 2 said:
In the synoptics he's a religious criminal (Are you the the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? &c) and also a political criminal ('Are you the King of the Jews?'). In John the picture is not as clear. In Paul there's scarcely a picture at all.
On the exact contrary, if indeed it happened, it was a big nothing at the time, and certainly not as reported ─ the Jewish religious authorities involving the Prefect personally in a religious dispute would hardly have escaped comment.
A very funny way, then, for God to communicate with his own chosen people ─ indeed, bald incompetence, you'd have to say.

But as for 'giving oxygen' to the death, I've asked you before, assuming an historical Jesus, on what basis the Jews should have considered Jesus to be a messiah in the Jewish sense? He wasn't anointed, he wasn't a national leader or a war leader, he favored peace with Rome, so what messianic hint do you say the Jewish leadership missed, exactly?

Luke 24 it says " "Are you a stranger lodging alone in Jerusalem, that you have known nothing of the things
that have lately happened in the city?"
So yes, it was a Big Deal. Jesus was taken in the night, tried during that night and killed the next morning.
This was way outside Jewish law. It took serious conniving by people in high places to do this.
So sure, it was "Nothing to see here, move along, move along" by some, and a shameful episode by others
- the killing of a famous and supremely innocent man.

And again - THERE ARE TWO MESSIAHS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT - THE REDEEMER AND THE KING.
Jesus came as Redeemer, and he will return as King. And as Zechariah (et al) put it, the Jews will see their
king reigning over the nations one day - but it's the lowly one they crucified.

Trailblazer · Jan 4, 2020

PruePhillip said:
Resurrected as in living again - in the spirit.

Resurrected and continuing to live in the spirit, which expresses itself through a spiritual body.

Since the soul (spirit) is immortal, it does not die when the physical body dies. The soul (spirit) simply leaves the physical body and continues to live in the spiritual world (heaven). What is written in this book, Heaven and Hell, explains what I believe happens when our body dies. The book was written by a Christian.

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

stvdv · Jan 4, 2020

Trailblazer said:
I am an ordinary person

Always good to realize "I am an ordinary person". Same for me, this realization keeps me humble and grounded; a bit more in "reality". Some realized Masters claim something like "You are not the body, you are not the mind ... you are a spark of the Divine". I do love this teaching, but I have not yet realized this myself

. Working on it though

.

Trailblazer said:
I do not think there is anything "special" about someone rising from the dead

What you (or I) write only becomes "special" when we do not think it anymore, but when we really realize this, correct?

Trailblazer said:
even if it was possible, which I do not think it is

Might 'you not believing it is possible' be the reason you are writing "I don't think it is 'special'."?

Trailblazer said:
Logically speaking, even if a body rose from the grave, it would ultimately have to die because all physical things die eventually

But that again (I assume), is just logically speaking. Not speaking from "having realized it yourself".

Trailblazer said:
So what is all the fuss about?

When we have not realized this ourselves, what do our words really mean?
Maybe here it is the right place to realize "So what is all the fuss about?

"

I am still attached to body and emotions. I run to the dentist when having a tooth ache (root canal trouble). So for sure I am not detached from body nor pain.. Would you run to the dentist? Running to dentist when in pain shows our enlightened state (detached from body or just mental thoughts about it).

To me it feels "special" if someone rises from death. That means he overcame body attachment. That in itself is very "special", very few achieve this.

Trailblazer said:
So what is all the fuss about?

If you really believe what you wrote then you would say the same about Bahaullah for example (or me about Sai Baba):
Bahaullah (Sai Baba) was just a man, like ca. 50% of the world population. Nothing special about all the things people attribute to him. The books He wrote, what about it? There have been written so many good books, even better ones. What is all the fuss about this Bahaullah (Sai Baba) man; being so special? There is only 1 God, so no need to make Bahaullah (Sai Baba) look so special.

blü 2 · Jan 4, 2020

Samantha Rinne said:
You're picking apart the argument, rather than reading it as a whole.

On the contrary, I'm reading the whole and finding six incompatible accounts. the earliest at least twenty and the latest about seventy years after the event ─ none contemporary, none independent, none by an eye-witness. The reports together have not the slightest credibility even in ordinary terms, let alone addressing the special problems of demonstrating a miracle.

Samantha Rinne said:
The reason the resurrection is relevant is that it undermines state power.

How, exactly? No one noticed it at the time, no one mentions it until we come to Paul at least twenty years after the alleged crucifixion and resurrection. If it had been an historical event capable of shaking the Roman polity, do you really think it could go missing from history for twenty years?

Samantha Rinne said:
The reason Jesus was crucified, was that the Jews and Romans believed he threatened their power.

That would be considered a fair reason to execute someone in those days, and the gospels point the finger at the Jewish religious leadership rather than the Romans. But the author of Mark greatly overstates the public impact of his Jesus, whom he devises principally from passages in the Tanakh which it pleases him to see as messianic prophecies (and as Ted Weeden points out, his trial scene of Jesus is based on Josephus' account of the trial of Jesus son of Ananias in Wars bk 6 ch. 5.3).

Samantha Rinne said:
Render Unto Caesar: A Most Misunderstood New Testament Passage - LewRockwell LewRockwell.com

What Mr Rockwell lacks in historical nous and accuracy he makes for in invention.

Samantha Rinne said:
No serious historian doubts Jesus's existence.

That kind of argument is known as the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

None of the NT authors ever met an historical Jesus. Paul's statements about the earthly life of Jesus fit into two lines; he never names Jesus' parents or mentions his birth, never says why Jesus was arrested and crucified, even says that Jesus wasn't called Jesus until after his death (Philippians 2:9-10). The author of Mark devises his story by moving his Jesus through those 'messianic prophecies' I mentioned; and he may have had some sayings attributed to Jesus as well. The authors of Matthew and Luke draw on this, the only purported biography of substance, and rewrite it to fit their respective theologies, 'prophecies', sayings and tales. The author of John, a gnostic like Paul, also uses Mark for his outline. However, one piece of evidence that arguably favors an historical Jesus is the way he never mentions his mother without vituperation, the sole exception being John's crucifixion scene (Mark 3:31, Mark 6:3, Mark 15:40, Matthew 10:35, Luke 11:27. John 2:3, contrast John 19:26).

blü 2 · Jan 4, 2020

PruePhillip said:
Luke 24 it says " "Are you a stranger lodging alone in Jerusalem, that you have known nothing of the things that have lately happened in the city?"

But the author of Luke wasn't there (and says so). That's all hearsay, copying heavily from Mark, 'correcting' Mark's theology, adding his own favorite tales and sayings, and also Matthew's nonsense about Jesus' birth (you'll recall that Mark's Jesus is born of ordinary Jewish parents without angel messengers or Magi, and doesn't become son of God till adopted after his baptism) and so on. Luke is written more than fifty years after the traditional date of the crucifixion.

PruePhillip · Jan 4, 2020

blü 2 said:
But the author of Luke wasn't there (and says so). That's all hearsay, copying heavily from Mark, 'correcting' Mark's theology, adding his own favorite tales and sayings, and also Matthew's nonsense about Jesus' birth (you'll recall that Mark's Jesus is born of ordinary Jewish parents without angel messengers or Magi, and doesn't become son of God till adopted after his baptism) and so on. Luke is written more than fifty years after the traditional date of the crucifixion.

Crucifixion was about AD25. About.
Luke's Acts ends AD 66 and he wrote his Gospel prior to Acts.
So maybe his Gospel was written 20-30 years after Jesus, and
taken wholly from extant texts, eye witnesses or those who heard
the account from eye witnesses.

You will notice that John makes no mention of Jesus' virgin
birth, for instance - doesn't mean anything, don't read stuff
where it isn't. John gave us about seven small stories about
Jesus - nothing about the law, or history, or current events.
Each author shaped their account as you and I would shape
it. Been listening to the defeat of Jeremy Corbyn in the UK
election - each person saw Corbyn differently --- intellectual,
idiot, idealist, fighter, kindly, ideologue etc..

CG Didymus · Jan 4, 2020

Trailblazer said:
Maybe you forgot the most important Christian doctrine. It was the cross sacrifice that wiped away our sins. The resurrection was a completely superfluous add-on, an unnecessary story that was added to the NT. Imo, the main reason it was added on was so they could continue adding things on, like the bodily ascension and the return of Jesus in the clouds.

In paraphrasing Christian beliefs, I'm not worried about getting all the details of their doctrines right. If the resurrection was an "add-on", then the gospel writers weren't writing something that was true. Baha'is say it was "true" but symbolic. I don't think so. If it wasn't true, then it was a fabrication. I think they were writing a fictional story to get pagans to believe that their God/man was superior and greater than all other prophets.

They claim that this man, Jesus, was the Son of the one and only real God. He alone had the power to forgive sins. By rising from the dead, he conquered death. He "proved" himself alive to the disciples. They touched him, ate with him. He was real... and then floated off into the sky. So he was symbolically the Son of God? He symbolically forgave sins? He symbolically rose from the dead? He symbolically appeared and then disappeared? He symbolically ascended to heaven? And, we could continue. He was symbolically born of a virgin. He symbolically walked on water. He symbolically raised Lazarus from the dead and so on.

Then, the story of Jesus is fiction... and I'm fine with that. The resurrection is no big deal. And the life of Jesus is no big deal. It's a myth. Or, the improbable. It's all literally true. But for both of us... "the Baha’i explanation wanting because it does not really explain why so much was written about the resurrection in the NT, as if it really happened." So is it symbolic or a lie? For me, if it's not literally true, then it is a lie.

The Resurrection: Why does it matter?

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