Is this logical?

Aupmanyav · Jan 2, 2020

Trailblazer said:
Imo, we cannot ever understand God without an intermediary who has the qualities of both God and humans and can thus bridge the gap.
Likewise, I see no evidence of the God you believe in that can be Discovered.
Imo, it needs the Messengers to work properly, but even if we do not believe in them, we will learn our lessons through living. That is why we are on this earth.

- Your omni-potent Allah cannot make people understand him? What a funny Allah have you got!
- If there is no evidence of your Allah and none provided by your esteemed manifestation of Allah, mirror-copy, exact replica of Allah and the avatara, the returning Jesus, Krishna, Buddha and Saoshyant, all in one, why are you believing in all the crap?
- If the lessons can be learned through living, then what is the need of the esteemed prophets \ sons \ messengers \ manifestation \ mahdis?

Trailblazer said:
Baha'u'llah knew that in the future everyone would recognize Him so there was no hurry. God has never been in a hurry, the Bible says God is patient.

Bahaullah knew that irrespective of what he said, there will be ignoramuses who will still believe that. I can expect it for the ignorant Iranians of 1850s, what surprises me is that even in this 21st Century when science has made such giant leaps, there are people who believe that the Maid of Heaven came to Bahaullah with a message from Allah.

Trailblazer · Jan 3, 2020

Aupmanyav said:
Why is God 'hands off'?

Because there is no way to approach God, who is and has always been in His Own High Place.
God is kind of like the Wizard of Oz, except that you never find Him at the end of the story.

Aupmanyav said:
It is not necessary to accept existence of God in Dharmic religions. Even RigVeda says that Gods are later to the production of the world. I am an strong atheist Hindu, Buddha never accepted existence of God. What dharmic religions stress on is just humane action.

"Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?
The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?"
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation.

Okay thanks. There is sure a lot to learn about Hinduism and Buddhism. I am aware that some Buddhists and Hindus believe in a God or gods, whereas others are atheists. It's all good because it is how you live that really matters, not what you believe.

Trailblazer · Jan 3, 2020

Aupmanyav said:
- Your omni-potent Allah cannot make people understand him? What a funny Allah have you got!

My belief is that God does not want to MAKE people understand Him; He wants people to come to understand Him on their own. God is not one to force His Will upon anyone.

Aupmanyav said:
- If there is no evidence of your Allah and none provided by your esteemed manifestation of Allah, mirror-copy, exact replica of Allah and the avatara, the returning Jesus, Krishna, Buddha and Saoshyant, all in one, why are you believing in all the crap?

For me, the evidence is what Baha'u'llah wrote about them all being one spirit of God, in different human bodies. This also makes sense to me. One could never prove something like this.

Aupmanyav said:
- If the lessons can be learned through living, then what is the need of the esteemed prophets \ sons \ messengers \ manifestation \ mahdis?Bahaullah knew that irrespective of what he said, there will be ignoramuses who will still believe that. I can expect it for the ignorant Iranians of 1850s, what surprises me is that even in this 21st Century when science has made such giant leaps, there are people who believe that the Maid of Heaven came to Bahaullah with a message from Allah.

Imo, the Messengers of God reveal teachings and laws that guide our lives.

I have no problem with the Maid of Heaven anymore than I have a problem with the Burning Bush or the Dove or the Angel Gabriel who came to the other Messengers. These are just mediums through which the Holy Spirit communicates. There was no actual Maiden.

The Holy Spirit does not contradict science, it is simply outside the purview of science just like souls and the spiritual world and God.

Aupmanyav · Jan 3, 2020

Trailblazer said:
Because there is no way to approach God, who is and has always been in His Own High Place.
God is kind of like the Wizard of Oz, except that you never find Him at the end of the story.

Then why keep up with such an Allah?

Trailblazer said:
For me, the evidence is what Baha'u'llah wrote about them all being one spirit of God, in different human bodies.
There was no actual Maiden.
The Holy Spirit does not contradict science, it is simply outside the purview of science just like souls and the spiritual world and God.

What does he mean there? Are all humans Allah? Part of Allah? If the spirit is the same, then why does he not transmit his message directly? Then why prophets \ sons \ messengers \ manifestations \ mahdis? Why is the spirit of Allah not able to get the message of Allah?
No actual Maid of Heaven! Was Bahaullah lying? He mentioned her in his 'Súriy-i-Haykal'. What else that Bahaullah wrote is not to be believed?
You mean it is something that we cannot discuss? And accept only as blind faith? We cannot believe Bahaullah because as you said there was no Maid of Heaven visiting him. That was a lie.
Why are you trying to tie me in knots? Some place Bahais say something and then say different things at other places. Bible is true and Bible does not have words of Jesus? It is interpolated, edited, not first hand, etc.

Trailblazer · Jan 3, 2020

Aupmanyav said:
Then why keep up with such an Allah?

Because I have no interest in approaching God.

Aupmanyav said:
What does he mean there? Are all humans Allah? Part of Allah? If the spirit is the same, then why does he not transmit his message directly? Then why prophets \ sons \ messengers \ manifestations \ mahdis? Why is the spirit of Allah not able to get the message of Allah?

No, I do not believe that all humans are Allah or part of Allah. Baha'is believe that the spirit of all the Messengers is the same and that the message is not transmitted directly because no ordinary human could understand direct communication from Allah.

Aupmanyav said:
No actual Maid of Heaven! Was Bahaullah lying? He mentioned her in his 'Súriy-i-Haykal'. What else that Bahaullah wrote is not to be believed?
You mean it is something that we cannot discuss? And accept only as blind faith? We cannot believe Bahaullah because as you said there was no Maid of Heaven visiting him. That was a lie.

I spoke out of turn because I do not really know about the Maid of Heaven. You will have to ask another Baha'i if you want to know. I am not conversant with all Baha'i texts.

ecco · Jan 3, 2020

Trailblazer said:
1. I said that I believe the OT and the NT were the inspired Word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit, even though we do not know who wrote it.

So, you do believe every word in the OT and NT are absolute God's Words and Truth.

So, your beliefs include God creating the universe in six days about 6000 years ago.

I guess I was mistaken.

Trailblazer said:
2. I have produced an accurate concise Biblical prophecy that "I believe" refers to Baha'u'llah, and I explained why I believe it refers to Him. I am not going to explain that again.

Micah 7:12 “In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.”

You notions of consice and accurate are very different from most peoples notions of precise and accurate.

How is "In that day" concise and accurate? It's no better than, "once upon a time".

Where's he coming from? Somewhere "from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain."

Most important, you and your Bahai mentors intentionally fail to put the verse into context:

Where is the LORD thy God? ... 12In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

Is this a prophecy about Baha'u'llah's coming? Nah. It clearly says "Where is the Lord"? Going forward...He (The Lord thy God) is coming...

This is what you believe. I understand why you wouldn't want to explain it again.

CG Didymus · Jan 3, 2020

ecco said:
So, you do believe every word in the OT and NT are absolute God's Words and Truth.

So, your beliefs include God creating the universe in six days about 6000 years ago.

I guess I was mistaken.

You notions of consice and accurate are very different from most peoples notions of precise and accurate.

How is "In that day" concise and accurate? It's no better than, "once upon a time".

Where's he coming from? Somewhere "from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain."

Most important, you and your Bahai mentors intentionally fail to put the verse into context:

Where is the LORD thy God? ... 12In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

Is this a prophecy about Baha'u'llah's coming? Nah. It clearly says "Where is the Lord"? Going forward...He (The Lord thy God) is coming...

This is what you believe. I understand why you wouldn't want to explain it again.

Ah... prophecies... precise and accurate prophecies. A sign to a Jewish king that a young maiden or maybe a virgin will have a son. Fine. But later, what does that kid do? He eats curds and by the time he gets old enough to know the difference between right and wrong, the enemies of that Jewish king will be no more. Obviously that was precisely is talking about Jesus. That is, if context doesn't matter and all that a person believes is the gospels of Matthew and Luke. After all, what they said is part of God's Word, and therefore true. But... who said it was God's Word?

Trailblazer · Jan 3, 2020

ecco said:
So, you do believe every word in the OT and NT are absolute God's Words and Truth.

So, your beliefs include God creating the universe in six days about 6000 years ago.

I guess I was mistaken.

No, I do not believe that. I believe much of Genesis is allegorical, not literal, but that does not mean it is not God's Words and Truth.

ecco said:
You notions of concise and accurate are very different from most peoples notions of precise and accurate.

How is "In that day" concise and accurate? It's no better than, "once upon a time".

"In that day" means when the Messiah comes, the day in which he comes... It does not literally mean a 24 hour day, it means when he comes and while he is here this is what will happen.

ecco said:
Where's he coming from? Somewhere "from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain."

Most important, you and your Bahai mentors intentionally fail to put the verse into context:

Where is the LORD thy God? ... 12In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

Is this a prophecy about Baha'u'llah's coming? Nah. It clearly says "Where is the Lord"? Going forward...He (The Lord thy God) is coming...

I believe it is about Baha'u'llah and that Baha'u'llah was the Lord of Hosts. I could explain in detail how it was all fulfilled but I won't do it here unless I get permission from the staff since it could be construed as proselytizing.

ecco said:
This is what you believe. I understand why you wouldn't want to explain it again.

Because it could be construed as proselytizing, that is why. But if a staff member gives me permission I will post it because I already have it all written up in a Word document.

Bird123 · Jan 3, 2020

Aupmanyav said:
Where is this God's system? Do you mean 'what is happening' in the world? What reason you call it as God's system? What is the proof of existence of any God? However, if what has happened or happening in the world is God's system, it is a very despicable system.

God's system is what is happening in the world today. You see it as a very despicable system because religion has corrupted your view. To Understand, one must look beyond the mere surface to see what is really going on. If all the physics of this world add up completely so does the people factor. Work at understanding how the people factor does add up and you will start to Understand God. This will not be found in your holy books although pieces do exist within them all.

In this time-based causal universe, God's actions can be seen. If one walks this road of Discovery long enough, one will Discover God, not as a belief.

That's what I am seeing. It's very clear.

LuisDantas · Jan 3, 2020

Trailblazer said:
Is this logical? Why or why not?

God not communicating directly to everyone is an observation, something known. However, it does not follow that, since it is observable that God does not communicate directly to everyone, that this means that if God existed God would not communicate directly to everyone.

(Note: I did not write this.)

No, it is not really logical. Who knows whether a real God would communicate with anyone ?

Bird123 · Jan 3, 2020

Trailblazer said:
It is not God who needs a middle man, it is humans who need a middle man because we are human and can only understand another human. Imo, we cannot ever understand God without an intermediary who has the qualities of both God and humans and can thus bridge the gap.

Likewise, I see no evidence of the God you believe in that can be Discovered.

That is true. Whatever God's system is is going to work regardless of beliefs. Imo, it needs the Messengers to work properly, but even if we do not believe in them, we will learn our lessons through living. That is why we are on this earth.

Your quote:we are human and can only understand another human.
MY ANSWER: Is this statement really true? Example: Don't you understand your dog or cat very well even without words that you depend so much on? Do you really think the gap between God and His children can not be reached without a middle man?

Your quote:Likewise, I see no evidence of the God you believe in that can be Discovered.
MY ANSWER: All the secrets of the universe stare us all in the face. How much do we choose to be blind of? In order to see evidence, one must take a journey to Discovery rather than merely valuing and accepting Beliefs. As long as you value Beliefs above all else, you will never Discover the Real Truth.

Your quote:it needs the Messengers to work properly,
MY ANSWER: Who decided this? Do you even know how God's system really works or are you making rules in order that you can justify your beliefs?

Your quote:but even if we do not believe in them, we will learn our lessons through living. That is why we are on this earth.[/QUOTE]
MY ANSWER: Hmmm? then you are saying messengers are not needed. OK! It was a winding road, however it does seem we reached the right place.

That's what I see. It's very clear.

Trailblazer · Jan 3, 2020

LuisDantas said:
No, it is not really logical. Who knows whether a real God would communicate with anyone ?

That is especially true of an atheist. If he does not even believe God exists how could he ever know if or how God would communicate or to how many people?

LuisDantas · Jan 3, 2020

Trailblazer said:
That is especially true of an atheist. If he does not even believe God exists how could he ever know if or how God would communicate or to how many people?

Actually, we can simply decide that it is so.

It would be an arbitrary decision, but that comes with the territory.

All forms of funny, weird or just odd consequences come from treating such a vague idea as "God" as if it was some form of known quantity.

Trailblazer · Jan 3, 2020

LuisDantas said:
Actually, we can simply decide that it is so.

It would be an arbitrary decision, but that comes with the territory.

You certainly have a legitimate point, because most people just believe what they WANT to believe even though it does not conform with logic.

So you could decide that God would communicate directly to everyone if God existed, just because you WANT that to be true, even though no God has EVER been observed communicating directly to everyone.

However, it would be illogical to assert that since it is cannot be the case, because if God exists God has never been observed communicating directly to everyone, which means that God would not communicate directly to everyone if God existed...

I have probably written something to this effect at least 100 times to a certain atheist, so I could write it without even thinking.

It still has not sunk in, but I am not one to give up on anyone.

LuisDantas said:
All forms of funny, weird or just odd consequences come from treating such a vague idea as "God" as if it was some form of known quantity.

Ain't that the truth, given God is unknowable and unquantifiable.

Trailblazer · Jan 4, 2020

Bird123 said:
My quote: we are human and can only understand another human.

YOUR ANSWER: Is this statement really true? Example: Don't you understand your dog or cat very well even without words that you depend so much on? Do you really think the gap between God and His children can not be reached without a middle man?

I can understand my dog or cat because animals are an order of creation that is below the human level. Each level of creation can only understand what is on their level or below their level, not what is above their level. Can a plant understand an animal? Can a mineral understand a plant?

God is the Creator, like the painter who painted the painting. Can a painting understand the painter?

God is so far above all His creatures, exalted beyond human understanding, and that is why nobody can understand God without an Intermediary. This is what I believe because it makes logical sense to me.

Bird123 said:
My quote: Likewise, I see no evidence of the God you believe in that can be Discovered.

YOUR ANSWER: All the secrets of the universe stare us all in the face. How much do we choose to be blind of? In order to see evidence, one must take a journey to Discovery rather than merely valuing and accepting Beliefs. As long as you value Beliefs above all else, you will never Discover the Real Truth.

Imo, beliefs do not preclude Discovery. It is not an either/or. We can have beliefs and still make discoveries.

What do you think the Real Truth is? How do you think you can Discover the Real Truth?

Logically speaking, if two different people say they have Discovered the Real Truth, and those Truths differ, how can we know which one has the Real Truth?

Bird123 said:
My quote: it needs the Messengers to work properly,

YOUR ANSWER: Who decided this? Do you even know how God's system really works or are you making rules in order that you can justify your beliefs?

Imo, God decided this and that is why God sends Messengers. The only way to know how God’s system works at all is through what the Messengers reveal in scriptures.

Do you even know how God's system really works or are you making rules in order that you can justify your beliefs? How can you know any of this just by looking around in the world?

Bird123 said:
My quote: but even if we do not believe in them, we will learn our lessons through living. That is why we are on this earth.

YOUR ANSWER: Hmmm? then you are saying messengers are not needed. OK! It was a winding road, however it does seem we reached the right place.

I think Messengers are needed for humanity as a whole to survive and thrive and progress spiritually, but if some people do not recognize them and believe in them, those people can still grow spiritually and learn their lessons by living. Moreover, we all learn our lessons by living in this world, whether we believe in Messenger or not.

ecco · Jan 4, 2020

CG Didymus said:
After all, what they said is part of God's Word, and therefore true. But... who said it was God's Word?

Who said it was God's Word? A bunch of superstitious old geezers trying to start a new religion.

ecco · Jan 4, 2020

Trailblazer said:
1. I said that I believe the OT and the NT were the inspired Word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit, even though we do not know who wrote it.

Trailblazer said:
No, I do not believe that. I believe much of Genesis is allegorical, not literal, but that does not mean it is not God's Words and Truth.

If Genesis is allegorical, how can it be God's Words and Truth?

Do you ever recognize the mental gymnastics you put yourself through to try to make sense of your beliefs?

ecco · Jan 4, 2020

ecco said:
You notions of consice and accurate are very different from most peoples notions of precise and accurate.

How is "In that day" concise and accurate? It's no better than, "once upon a time".

Trailblazer said:
"In that day" means when the Messiah comes, the day in which he comes... It does not literally mean a 24 hour day, it means when he comes and while he is here this is what will happen.

Micah 7:12 “In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.”

You had said that the above-quoted verse was a prophecy of Baluluah's coming. Now you are saying that it refers to the Messiah's coming.

Is Baluluah now your Messiah in addition to being a Messenger?
Did the Messiah appear when Baluluah appear?
Please try to get your stories straight - preferably before posting.

Trailblazer said:
I believe it is about Baha'u'llah and that Baha'u'llah was the Lord of Hosts. I could explain in detail how it was all fulfilled

What now? A whole new term "Lord of Hosts"! Is that something you made up to try to make your prophecy a little more accurate? Puleeeeese.

Trailblazer said:
but I won't do it here unless I get permission from the staff since it could be construed as proselytizing.

I doubt explaining how a nonsensical prophecy could be construed as proselytizing. But please do. I can hardly wait to see more of your contorted rationalizing.

ecco · Jan 4, 2020

Trailblazer said:
That is especially true of an atheist. If he does not even believe God exists how could he ever know if or how God would communicate or to how many people?

What a ridiculous comment.

Muffled · Jan 4, 2020

Trailblazer said:
Is this logical? Why or why not?

God not communicating directly to everyone is an observation, something known. However, it does not follow that, since it is observable that God does not communicate directly to everyone, that this means that if God existed God would not communicate directly to everyone.

(Note: I did not write this.)

I believe it isn't intelligible let alone logical but if I read between the lines maybe he is saying something like the fact that God does not communicate wit everyone may mean that there is a God who doesn't communicate with everyone. Therefore a lack of communication with everyone does not prove that there is no God.

Is this logical?

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