Non-Trinitarians: What's wrong with the Trinity?

74x12 said:

I have one God you have two gods.

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I'm curious what you make of verses like these:

"I [God] said, 'You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you.'" (Psalms 82:6)

"Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your Law, "I said, you are gods"?...and Scripture cannot be broken—'" (John 10:34-35)

sojourner said:

Seems plainly taught to me.

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Please point me to a place in the Bible that plainly teaches the Trinity doctrine.

sojourner said:

No. We don’t have to concede that, cause it just ain’t true.

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Well it was Jesus that called Satan "the ruler of this world". Was Jesus teaching something false?

Hi 101G,

101G said:

who do you thing gave satan that power? listen,
Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God". (that just got the devil and his power).

Romans 13:2 "Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation". (that's what the devil is going to get).

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I certainly agree with the above verses. But you asked how it is that the Almighty God can receive power. And that is the simple answer. God is taking back power from Satan that rightfully belongs to himself. (I already noted that God allowed Satan to have that power temporarily.)

"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign." (Revelation 11:17)

cataway said:

and his name is?

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Clearly, from scripture; He has more than one name. But, the latest name He has revealed is Yeshua. Jesus. It means Yah's salvation. This is the only name given among men whereby you must be saved. So right now this is the most important name you can know.

When you call Jesus Lord you are doing so unto the glory of the Father not anyone else.

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:11)

So, we proclaim Jesus is Lord to the glory of the only true God. Again Jesus said when you see Him you see the Father. And John taught (in his 1st epistle) whoever has the Son has the Father also, but if you deny the Son then you don't have the Father. It's really simple. The Father has revealed Himself to us in this age through the Son of God and everyone should honor the Son if they really want to honor the Father. There is no other way to come to the Father or to honor Him than through Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the invisible God revealed. He who was Spirit; made tangible. Made in the exact imprint of the image of God so we could know Him and we would not want to serve idols. The likeness of God we could only imagine before and so people made idols. Jesus is the true image of God rather than one from imagination.

TJ1 said:

I'm curious what you make of verses like these:

"I [God] said, 'You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you.'" (Psalms 82:6)

"Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your Law, "I said, you are gods"?...and Scripture cannot be broken—'" (John 10:34-35)

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Yes, there are many called gods but which of these "gods" are for the church? According to the scriptures there is only one God for the church. That is the Father. So He is the only God. But anyone who believes Arianism has two gods for the church. They have God the Father and another "god" the Lord Jesus Christ who is Lord of the church beneath the Father.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

So, what we believe simply brings these together as one God. The Father is the only God and He was manifest in human form as the Lord Jesus Christ. It's really simple and makes sense because the church is not supposed to have two Gods.

Yet we are commanded to honor the Son exactly as we honor the Father. (John 5:23) This cannot be unless He is equal with the Father and so we have an impasse. Either there are two Gods or else Jesus is indeed the Father manifest.

TJ1 said:

I certainly agree with the above verses. But you asked how it is that the Almighty God can receive power. And that is the simple answer. God is taking back power from Satan that rightfully belongs to himself. (I already noted that God allowed Satan to have that power temporarily.)

"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign." (Revelation 11:17)

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How did God take power? For whom did He take power? Did God need to fear satan or death? Did God take it without Jesus? God took the power over satan and death through Jesus the Son of man. And that's clear enough.

So then; the Almighty took the power for our sake and this shows us exactly why God would want or need to become a human being. He did it for us; not for Himself.

Jesus is God manifest.

TJ1 said:

So God the Father "receives" or 'takes' power in the sense that his kingdom begins its rule over the whole earth.

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I just don't understand why people worship a deity who apparently isn't in charge.

cataway said:

20 But he added: “You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”

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Except God often visited people, starting with Adam and Eve. This "rule" doesn't seem to happen until much later. Did God get a really bad zit?

TJ1 said:

God has allowed him to have that power.

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If God can't be bothered to be God of this world, why should I bother caring about Him?

sojourner said:

Except that this is a recognized heresy.

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What if the official doctrine is the heresy and the heresy is actually the real deal?

PearlSeeker said:

Trinity pattern is observable in nature. Sight - three primal colors. Music - triads (chords)...

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That only works for humans. Other lifeforms see and hear more than us.

TJ1 said:

Well it was Jesus that called Satan "the ruler of this world". Was Jesus teaching something false?

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Jesus said Satan was the Father of Lies and he never lies in any of his actual scenes. So ....

74x12 said:

When you call Jesus Lord you are doing so unto the glory of the Father not anyone else.

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Or I could just call God Lord and skip the middle man.

Kelly of the Phoenix said:

What if the official doctrine is the heresy and the heresy is actually the real deal?

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Those in the Apostolic Succession have the authority to make the determination.

Kelly of the Phoenix said:

Or I could just call God Lord and skip the middle man.

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John 14:6 might have something to say about that.

TJ1 said:

Please point me to a place in the Bible that plainly teaches the Trinity doctrine

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John 1 for starters (but I’m sure you’ll logic-twist your way out of that). But most compellingly, the fact that Jesus was resurrected. Resurrection and raising from the dead were reserved for gods.

TJ1 said:

Well it was Jesus that called Satan "the ruler of this world". Was Jesus teaching something false?

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What was the context? Who was the gospel writer? What was his motivation for writing? What didJesus specifically mean by “this world?” What kind of literary criticism can you provide for the phrase and its context?

Kelly of the Phoenix said:

I just don't understand why people worship a deity who apparently isn't in charge.

Except God often visited people, starting with Adam and Eve. This "rule" doesn't seem to happen until much later. Did God get a really bad zit?


If God can't be bothered to be God of this world, why should I bother caring about Him?


What if the official doctrine is the heresy and the heresy is actually the real deal?


That only works for humans. Other lifeforms see and hear more than us.


Jesus said Satan was the Father of Lies and he never lies in any of his actual scenes. So ....


Or I could just call God Lord and skip the middle man.

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hummmm did not even use one scripture to back up your thoughts

Kelly of the Phoenix said:

Or I could just call God Lord and skip the middle man

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Except that completely ignores the fact that Jesus isn’t strictly a “middleman.” To make him so robs Xy of the essence of its theological uniqueness.

cataway said:

hummmm did not even use one scripture to back up your thoughts

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Didn’t know that was a requirement.

Hello,

Thanks for your reply.

74x12 said:

Yes, there are many called gods but which of these "gods" are for the church?

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Specifically, it is servants of the true God, invested with authority and power by him, that are sometimes called 'gods' and/or 'sons of God' in scripture. Moses was called such, as well as angels and human judges of Israel. When Jesus was confronted by his opposers that challenged his authority, as recorded in John 10, the reason he referenced Psalm 82 was because he was claiming for himself the very same type of authority and titles that had given to those Israelite judges. He was claiming to be, not God, but God's unique representative on the earth.

74x12 said:

Yet we are commanded to honor the Son exactly as we honor the Father. (John 5:23) This cannot be unless He is equal with the Father and so we have an impasse.

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Jesus is not the equal of his Father, for Jesus himself says that "the Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28) Throughout scripture, it is in the manner in which you honor the servant that it is said that you honor that servant's master. Which is why we have this sort of thing recorded in scripture:

"And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king."

This didn't mean King David was God himself, manifest in the flesh. David was merely God's anointed king, his representative. Jesus fills that same role, albeit on a grander scale, today.

Hello,

sojourner said:

John 1 for starters (but I’m sure you’ll logic-twist your way out of that). But most compellingly, the fact that Jesus was resurrected. Resurrection and raising from the dead were reserved for gods.

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I asked for a place in scripture that plainly teaches the Trinity doctrine, so why are you giving vague references intended to prove Jesus is God? Explicit proof of the Trinity doctrine would require something along the lines of: 'There are three persons making up the one God.' Where is that taught plainly in scripture?

sojourner said:

What was the context? Who was the gospel writer? What was his motivation for writing? What didJesus specifically mean by “this world?” What kind of literary criticism can you provide for the phrase and its context?

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I gave Jesus' explicit words, i.e. calling Satan "the ruler of this world." The burden is upon you to give a reason to qualify that in a manner differently than face-value; don't expect me to explain it away.

And that's not the only place in scripture that Satan is described in this way. Jesus himself repeatedly calls him "the ruler of this world". At 2 Corinthians 4:4 he is described as "the god of this age". And at 1 John 5:19 it is said "that the whole world is under the control of the evil one."

Hello Kelly,

Kelly of the Phoenix said:

I just don't understand why people worship a deity who apparently isn't in charge.

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The scriptures show that while God is indeed all powerful, that doesn't mean he cannot exercise his power selectively. For example, we have this example recorded for us in scripture:


The true God was still in charge, although he had temporarily relinquished his direct control over Israel to a foreign, hostile power. There was a purpose for this. Similarly, God has allowed Satan to rule over a rebellious world, beginning with Adam, for a limited time. This is why Jesus acknowledged Satan's rulership, and it's why Jesus didn't call Satan a liar when he tried to tempt Jesus with giving him rulership over all the kingdoms of this world.


Once God's purpose for allowing the world to live in rebellion has been served, then he will take back direct control via his kingdom, which will occur at an appointed time.

74x12 said:

How did God take power? For whom did He take power? Did God need to fear satan or death? Did God take it without Jesus? God took the power over satan and death through Jesus the Son of man. And that's clear enough.

So then; the Almighty took the power for our sake and this shows us exactly why God would want or need to become a human being. He did it for us; not for Himself.

Jesus is God manifest.

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In all sincerity, I don't see how that would follow at all. Nowhere in scripture is Jesus called "God manifest" as you call him, but rather he is called "the last Adam." (1 Corinthians 15:45) The atonement required to set the human family free from bondage to sin and death required an 'eye for eye' sacrifice, i.e. the equal of Adam.

The scriptures give the pattern of Abraham and his 'sacrifice' of Isaac for the reality of God sending, not himself, but his Son into the world to be a sacrifice for us.

Eddi said:

So, non-Trinitarians - what's wrong with all this? (pic related)

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The image simplifies something into a false mechanism, that isn't as precise as the real workings.

Everything comes from the Source: there are 24 Elders in Heaven, and 1 Messiah, with 7 Spirits of God, thus making 25 + 1 + 7 = 33.
[GALLERY=media, 9104][/GALLERY]
Masons use 33, and the Pyramid with the Eye as symbolism; yet it is meant for everyone, as this is the dynamics of our reality.

The idea the religions argue over what our reality is, where with each religion competing; it is stupid like children fighting over who is best, when they're all the same thing.

The Source's code is the Word, and the Holy Spirit is all code, plus all the Divine Council are all code... So ultimately there is only the Oneness of Source; not a Trinity.

In my opinion.

PearlSeeker said:

Even if Trinity is a latter theological invention it still reflects fundamental archetypal/esoteric truths. There is some correspondence with yin-yang archetypes (ying, yang and balance as the third). Father - giver, Son - receiver, Spirit - relationship/dynamic ... Trinity pattern is observable in nature. Sight - three primal colors. Music - triads (chords)...

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Kelly of the Phoenix said:

That only works for humans. Other lifeforms see and hear more than us.

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You're right about colors. The triadic pattern is written in the human mind and body...

In music however it is written in the sound itself - harmonic series. Major triad is already in "the chord of nature" or "naturklang".

TJ1 said:

I asked for a place in scripture that plainly teaches the Trinity doctrine, so why are you giving vague references intended to prove Jesus is God?

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1) I don’t think they’re so “vague.” They’re rather in-your-face.
2) They’re not intended to “prove” anything. They’re intended to make a theological statement about the nature of God.
3) Doctrines are not often lifted directly from scripture, and there’s no “rule” that says they ought to be, except for the one you’ve made up here.

TJ1 said:

I gave Jesus' explicit words, i.e. calling Satan "the ruler of this world." The burden is upon you to give a reason to qualify that in a manner differently than face-value; don't expect me to explain it away.

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Nope. The burden is on you to read responsibly, rather than treat the Bible like Cosmopolitan. I’ve already done my due diligence; now it’s your turn.

Hello,

sojourner said:

1) I don’t think they’re so “vague.” They’re rather in-your-face.
2) They’re not intended to “prove” anything. They’re intended to make a theological statement about the nature of God.
3) Doctrines are not often lifted directly from scripture, and there’s no “rule” that says they ought to be, except for the one you’ve made up here.

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I said that the Trinity doctrine, which is purported to be the central doctrine of Christianity, is not taught plainly in scripture. Your response was that it is in fact taught plainly, at John 1 and where it's said that Jesus was resurrected. That is not the Trinity doctrine taught plainly.

Can you show me anywhere in scripture where we are taught that God is three Persons in one Being? If not, please at least concede that.

sojourner said:

Nope. The burden is on you to read responsibly, rather than treat the Bible like Cosmopolitan. I’ve already done my due diligence; now it’s your turn.

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I just gave you 2 additional scriptures to back up my point regarding Satan being "the ruler of this world" according to Jesus. Do you have any specific counterpoints to add to the discussion? If you feel I've misrepresented the original meaning or intent of these verses, by all means please explain to me how I did that. I definitely want to read responsibly.