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Who is Jesus?

rrobs

rrobs

Well-Known Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
As opposed to the Tanakh where Jesus is never called the Son of God. LOL

Just thought your wording was funny.
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Not my wording. It's in the NT, which I understand you to not believe. Still, it doesn't matter whether anyone believes it or not. The actual words, "son of God" are mentioned about 50 times in the writings. Belief is optional. Some do and some don't.

I like your little ditty about loving God and your neighbor. The NT says that is what one must do to fulfill the law. It makes sense. Who would lie to, steal from, or kill someone they loved?
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
rrobs said:
Not my wording. It's in the NT, which I understand you to not believe. Still, it doesn't matter whether anyone believes it or not. The actual words, "son of God" are mentioned about 50 times in the writings. Belief is optional. Some do and some don't.

I like your little ditty about loving God and your neighbor. The NT says that is what one must do to fulfill the law. It makes sense. Who would lie to, steal from, or kill someone they loved?
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You said, it was stated over 50 times in the NT ALONE which implies that is is also said in the "old" testament (but not as much). That is not true. It is not said even one time in the Tanakh that Jesus is the Son of God. I'm sure that this grammatical slip was just an oversite and you didn't really mean it. That's why I was joking back at ya. :)

shalom
 
rrobs

rrobs

Well-Known Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
You said, it was stated over 50 times in the NT ALONE which implies that is is also said in the "old" testament (but not as much). That is not true. It is not said even one time in the Tanakh that Jesus is the Son of God. I'm sure that this grammatical slip was just an oversite and you didn't really mean it. That's why I was joking back at ya. :)

shalom
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Well, I have to admit it wasn't really a simple grammatical slip. I had just never realized the lack of the title in the OT. But now that I think about it, I can see that what you say is sure enough true. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

I believe God has a reason for every word He uses, so I think there is some good reason for His never having inspired Moses, et, al,. from using the term. I think it gives a verse in the NT more meaning to me.

Rom 1:4,

And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:​

Jesus was not "officially" the son of God until after God raised him from the dead, so obviously that would have been after the OT.

Thanks again. I appreciate your input. And just when I thought I knew everything about the scriptures! :) But now I do....:):):)....NOT!

Take care my friend.
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
rrobs said:
Not my wording. It's in the NT, which I understand you to not believe. Still, it doesn't matter whether anyone believes it or not. The actual words, "son of God" are mentioned about 50 times in the writings.
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You believe Ephraim is Son of God?
 
j1i

j1i

Smiling is charity without giving money
rrobs said:
I understand and appreciate your thoughts. It reminds me of a couple of verses in Romans,

Rom 1:19-20,

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
​
It seems like man has a conscious and knows intuitively that there is a God. According to these verses, simply looking at the night sky, the oceans, a hummingbird, the birth of a baby, and much more, instills man with the idea that there is something greater than himself.

I believe there is a truth. The question is, what is that truth? That is the question Pilot asked Jesus (John 18:38). Had Pilot heard some of Jesus' earlier teachings, he would have known the answer.

John 17:17,

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
​
Of course belief in that statement is purely one's own choice. I just so happen to believe it and I've found through many years of research that the scriptures are a most unique body of writings. I've proven to myself many times that the words they contain are true, that the scriptures fit like a hand in a glove, with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision. There is simply no way some 40 different people over a period of thousands of years could have penned a book with such perfectness. People say the scriptures are full of contradictions, but that is only because they go to them already believing that, and never take the time to do the work necessary to see they in fact do not contradict themselves. Any perceived contradiction is either a result of mistranslation (Greek/Hebrew to English) or one's own misunderstanding. When they are approached with a conviction that, as John said, God's word is truth, then it is possible to rise above the lies of the devil and learn the true nature of life, God, and His son Jesus Christ.

Unfortunately the churches have done a bang up job of ruining the Biblical story. The Apostle Paul told Timothy that everyone had turned against him, that the church was invaded by men who taught lies.

2Tim 1:15,

This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.​

Acts 20:29,

For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.​

2Cor 11:4,

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we (Paul and company) have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].
​
By and large, that is where we stand to this day. Forgetting the scriptures themselves, even a cursory study of church history will show that the churches of today resemble Greek philosophy and Egyptian mysticism way more than the things actually written in the scriptures. By "a cursory study" I mean one or two hours at most. The information is there, people just chose to ignore it because it would ruin all of their traditions and non-scriptural ideas. I guess it's easier to just go along with the crowd instead of doing the work (2 Timothy 2:15) it takes to unravel the truth taught in the scriptures.

If, as you imagined, we lived in a world without God's revealed word, we would have some conscious of right and wrong which the scriptures mention in Romans, but we would have no way of knowing what to do with it. Well, I suppose God could reveal it to some individuals, but by and large we need those words to tell us the true nature of the things of God.
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Certainly, we Muslims are the same as all believers. We believe in the Torah, the Bible and the true Gospel

But we differ in the interpretation of the texts of the Bible
There is intentional forgery in parts of the Bible GOSPEL
For example
Those who give testimony in heaven three are soul, blood and water
Those who bear witness in heaven are three: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit

This deliberate false reference motivates me to not trust the idea of the Trinity, and I have the right to object
Because there is no clear proof in the Gospels that Jesus is the Son of God
Yes, I believe in Jesus and the Holy Gospel, and I know that he is from God
But there is no evidence that Jesus was the son of God

Let's go to the old versions to expose the idea of the Trinity and you will find that there is no mention of it at all

We all believe in Jesus and denying faith in the Prophet Jesus, meaning denying faith in the God message and denying the Bible means faith in the God message
 
rrobs

rrobs

Well-Known Member
j1i said:
Certainly, we Muslims are the same as all believers. We believe in the Torah, the Bible and the true Gospel

But we differ in the interpretation of the texts of the Bible
There is intentional forgery in parts of the Bible GOSPEL
For example
Those who give testimony in heaven three are soul, blood and water
Those who bear witness in heaven are three: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit

This deliberate false reference motivates me to not trust the idea of the Trinity, and I have the right to object
Because there is no clear proof in the Gospels that Jesus is the Son of God
Yes, I believe in Jesus and the Holy Gospel, and I know that he is from God
But there is no evidence that Jesus was the son of God

Let's go to the old versions to expose the idea of the Trinity and you will find that there is no mention of it at all

We all believe in Jesus and denying faith in the Prophet Jesus, meaning denying faith in the God message and denying the Bible means faith in the God message
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I know the Bible does not mention a trinity. You are absolutely correct about the forgery. Just because Jesus is the son of God has nothing to do with a trinity. In fact you'd think the idea of a son being the same person as his father is absurd.

If you believe the Bible, you surely must believe that Jesus was raised from the dead to die no more, thus making him a most unique prophet. If I'm not mistaken (I haven't studied all the faiths in much detail), there is no such claim in any other religion. Am I wrong?

Take care.
 
j1i

j1i

Smiling is charity without giving money
rrobs said:
I know the Bible does not mention a trinity. You are absolutely correct about the forgery. Just because Jesus is the son of God has nothing to do with a trinity. In fact you'd think the idea of a son being the same person as his father is absurd.

If you believe the Bible, you surely must believe that Jesus was raised from the dead to die no more, thus making him a most unique prophet. If I'm not mistaken (I haven't studied all the faiths in much detail), there is no such claim in any other religion. Am I wrong?

Take care.
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this is what i have in quran
59 The likeness of Jesus in God’s sight is that of Adam: He created him from dust, then said to him, “Be,” and he was.


4:157 And for their saying, “We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of God.” In fact, they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them as if they did. Indeed, those who differ about him are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it, except the following of assumptions. Certainly, they did not kill him.
158 Rather, God raised him up to Himself. God is Mighty and Wise.
159 There is none from the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them.

They would eventually believe in the truth of Jesus and that he was a prophet sent by God

and this

3:55 God said, “O Jesus, I am terminating your life, and raising you to Me, and clearing you of those who disbelieve. And I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return; then I will judge between you regarding what you were disputing.

The spirit of Jesus is captured and he is deceased until God returns his soul

The idea of the Trinity is a diabolical idea until it is brought to the Antichrist at the end of time
When the Antichrist comes out, he will be so noble and righteous that many will believe in him as God
And everyone who does not believe in it will fight
While he is hurting and torturing believers, God will be angry and bring Jesus back to life to kill him and will be on the side of Muslims
The first thing that Jesus will do when he descends will break the cross and kill the Antichrist and the Pig and will not accept negotiations with others
Anyone who refuses to believe in God as it is with Muslims will be attacked by Jesus until Gog and Magog are out
Then Jesus and the Muslims will hide in a cave between Palestine and Egypt
Jesus will marry and live his life cycle as an ordinary person and perform Islamic laws and will go to Mecca for the Hajj and die during this period

that happy time if the child will put his hand inside the snake's mouth and will not bite it
Likewise, the lion and the lamb will live in peace
After Jesus and the Mahdi died

There will be no good in this world never ever
Evil will spread rapidly and will worship idols until God is angry and establish the resurrection (Judgment Day).
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
rrobs said:
I am trying to see what people who have not read the Bible, or who have read it only a little, understand about the nature of Jesus. I don't care if you believe it or not, just trying to get an idea of what people think it says.

Do people already "know" that Jesus is God before ever cracking the book. In other words, if and when they do open the book for the first time, do they have preconceived ideas about Jesus?

Thanks!
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I wasn't raised christian. Years ago, I think around 15ish, I remember mother saying she wanted to marry in a church. It wasn't a big wedding or traditional like she wanted. While there, I was looking in many of the classrooms and found a children's bible. I ran into someone in the hall and he saw me and said I could keep it.

I read it for the pictures. One day mother (who isn't christian) took us to church cause she wanted to have a perfect family (boy and a girl, single family home, christian, and a labor dog [no kidding]). She dropped us off after the first couple weeks.

That's when I learned about the biblical jesus. I never believed in god and had any concept of him introduced to me. As a kid, you know, you only really accustomed to what you know with your five senses unless taught otherwise (I knew who santa was, type of thing). I tried praying how I saw the other people do, no luck (didn't know what I was supposed to get in return). I wrote my prayers.

I never had a spiritual experience of jesus; so, I don't know "who" he is personally. I have nothing against him. He just seem like someone in a book just as other greek influenced books. I read a lot of philosophy books-Plato, Sacrates, things like that.

Later, when I found out people are worshiping the death and blood of a person it made me uneasy. I see him as a regular guy who stood up for what he believed, guided people in his faith in god, and pretty much did what many other spiritual leaders did. I don't have a reason to think of him anymore than that
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
rrobs said:
I don't think I've made myself clear. Let my try this;

Do people already "know" that Jesus is God before ever cracking the book. In other words, if and when they do open the book for the first time, do they have preconceived ideas about Jesus?
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Oh. That too. No. Referring to your OP, I haven't had preconceived ideas of jesus. I never heard of him until I read the bible in full when I was younger. The closest I every got to the spiritual jesus was the physical Eucharist. This was near 10 years ago.
 
idea

idea

Question Everything
rrobs said:
Satan understood exactly what God said in Genesis 3:15 when God promised a seed, a son, that would bruise his head, i.e., eliminate him for good. What do you suppose Satan's priority became after hearing God say that? Kill the baby! Satan did his absolute best to make sure the promised seed would never see the light of day. He decided he could do that by killing someone in the bloodline of Jesus, thus preventing Jesus from ever making the scene here on earth. He almost succeeded in the days of Noah when God said,

And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually. Gen 6:5
​
Was it God's will for Harod to kill all the babies under 2 years old in an attempt to eliminate the promised seed? Nope. That would have been yet another attempt of many by Satan to keep himself in power over this world. It always amazes me to hear someone say, "God took my baby to be with Him in heaven." The first thing that pops into my mind is that they are really saying, "God murdered my baby because He is so selfish and wanted another dead baby with Him in heaven." What an absurd thought! I often wonder what people think Satan is doing when God is supposedly killing millions of people in wars and such. Do they think Satan just stands by smiling while God does his dirty work for him?

Given that man had free will (God couldn't just force them to be good), His only option was to eliminate all but Noah who just so happened to be both a righteous man, as well as a man through whom the promised seed would eventually come. It may be more accurate to say that it was men who beat their own head against a rock because they refused to live as God intended. Remember, when God created them His idea was for them to live a perfect live in a perfect setting. It certainly wasn't His idea for them to believe the lies of the devil.

Try to imagine God's dilemma; It wasn't His will to just kill people, but He knew that if He didn't do something eventually Satan would succeed in eliminating someone in the bloodline of Christ, thus eliminating Christ himself. That of course would mean we would still be dead in trespasses and sins, without God and without hope. God's hands were full in trying to keep the bloodline alive. Remember, people have free will. God dealing with Israel might be compared to herding millions of cats to do your will! Not an easy task to say the least, but somehow God managed to work with that herd of cats to get them to do what it took to keep the bloodline alive. True, it wasn't always pretty, but I can't imagine what else God could have done. He begged people to believe His words and was a plain as He could be in telling them what happens to them when they disobey.

Deut 30:19,

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:​

Anyway, eventually God pulled it off, His son came into the world and redeemed mankind from sin and death. But along the way, Jesus also revealed the true will of God, showing that God is love and not evil. Paul explained that it was always God's will for people to be saved and know the truth. Jesus also revealed how the true cause of all evil things was Satan and not his Father, God. Before Jesus opened the eyes of those who believe, it simply was not available for people to grasp the full reality of Satan and his doings, so God simply "took the rap" for all the evil done in the world.

In any case, we, in this age of grace, should now know that God's will if for EVERYBODY to be saved and know the truth. But, as I've said and we must never forget, man has free will, and if he wants to start wars, then so be it. God will do His best to work with man's free will, and He often succeeds in minimizing the damage.

In short, don't blame God for all the stupid decisions man has made throughout history. Hopefully all of this will give you something to think about regarding the apparent difference between the God of the OT and the God Jesus revealed in the NT. God did the best He could to herd the cats, but unfortunately many suffered and died trying to go against God's perfect will. God would have been more than happy for Adam to have simply obey one simple command, and thereby live a life of true righteousness and holiness. It's absolutely amazing that He could have changed pulled off our redemption through his son, who also had free will and was tempted just like the rest of us. Fortunately for us, the man (not some grotesque, pagan god-man construct) Jesus obeyed his Father to the letter, even to a gruesome death on the cross.

Take care...
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"In any case, we, in this age of grace, should now know that God's will if for EVERYBODY to be saved and know the truth. But"

I've told others "if it doesn't work out well for everyone, it won't work out well for me either" .. I told God I will be the last person to heaven, or not at all - if everyone is not given the correct educational experiences, I hold the teacher accountable. God is not God unless everyone is refined. God is not loving and just, not someone I want to spend eternity with, unless everyone makes it to heaven. All tears wiped away, everyone refined, everyone together forever-it is all or nothing for me.
 
rrobs

rrobs

Well-Known Member
idea said:
"In any case, we, in this age of grace, should now know that God's will if for EVERYBODY to be saved and know the truth. But"

I've told others "if it doesn't work out well for everyone, it won't work out well for me either" .. I told God I will be the last person to heaven, or not at all - if everyone is not given the correct educational experiences, I hold the teacher accountable. God is not God unless everyone is refined. God is not loving and just, not someone I want to spend eternity with, unless everyone makes it to heaven. All tears wiped away, everyone refined, everyone together forever-it is all or nothing for me.
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Even Donald Trump? :)
 
W

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
rrobs said:
I don't think I've made myself clear. Let my try this;

Do people already "know" that Jesus is God before ever cracking the book. In other words, if and when they do open the book for the first time, do they have preconceived ideas about Jesus?
Click to expand...


Jesus was 'the holy child' where John the Baptist was 'filled with the Holy Spirit' which suggests Jesus being somehow God who is the only one intrinsically inherently holy.

Jesus in almost every prayer addressed God as Father so 'son of God' is a claim.
The son can grant access to his Father and so Jesus is one who can grant access to the Father

There are striking comparisons between the ordinary and pressious materials the tabernacle is made from which is consistent with Jesus being fully God and fully man.

But go deep not shallow and I would not rely on the theology of the first glance or superficial notions.
 
rrobs

rrobs

Well-Known Member
whirlingmerc said:
Jesus was 'the holy child' where John the Baptist was 'filled with the Holy Spirit' which suggests Jesus being somehow God who is the only one intrinsically inherently holy.

Jesus in almost every prayer addressed God as Father so 'son of God' is a claim.
The son can grant access to his Father and so Jesus is one who can grant access to the Father

There are striking comparisons between the ordinary and pressious materials the tabernacle is made from which is consistent with Jesus being fully God and fully man.

But go deep not shallow and I would not rely on the theology of the first glance or superficial notions.
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Thanks for the reply. Did you already know Jesus was God before you acutally read it for yourself?
 
idea

idea

Question Everything
rrobs said:
Even Donald Trump? :)
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What gives more joy, seeing someone punished eternally? Or seeing someone have a change in heart? To choose hope and faith, why not have hope in the best possible outcome for everyone?
 
rrobs

rrobs

Well-Known Member
idea said:
What gives more joy, seeing someone punished eternally? Or seeing someone have a change in heart? To choose hope and faith, why not have hope in the best possible outcome for everyone?
Click to expand...
I totally agree. So does God.

Deut 30:19,

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

God did not make robots. He gave us free will. He was quite forthright in telling us what will happen if we choose rightly or wrongly while pleading with us to choose the right and life instead of wrong and death. Sounds good to me.

Take care.
 
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