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halbhh

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
9-10ths_Penguin said:
Why would a "real Christian" not simply want to do what Jesus explicitly commanded?

But I say to you, do not resist the evildoer.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:39 - New English Translation
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Read it with real listening, and we should realize that goes a lot further than one might at first guess (unless one has already learned the deep lesson). It means all the time in every situation everywhere, see.

Of course, it doesn't mean stand idly by doing nothing when innocents are being harmed in some way. You get that by context. He didn't mean something that contradicts other things He instructed us.

But, it does mean there are very strong boundaries in how we defend our own selves. :) It's because of faith that we don't have to defend our own selves.

Defending the innocent though, is itself a direct commandment in scripture too, see. One simply needs full reading (entire books through) with good listening to get the correct meanings for many things like this.

There aren't any contradictions here. It's the true listening -- full reading -- that helps you get it.
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
halbhh said:
Of course, it doesn't mean stand idly by doing nothing when innocents are being harmed in some way. You get that by context. He didn't mean something that contradicts other things He instructed us.
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Why wouldn't it mean that? Presumably, the faithful Christian believes that God sees every need and is more than capable of filling it, so what could a person hope to add by worrying over the situation? That's also one of the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels.

halbhh said:
But, it does mean there are very strong boundaries in how we defend our own selves. :) It's because of faith that we don't have to defend our own selves.
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There are strong boundaries? By all means: please give some examples of cases where Jesus says that it's appropriate for his followers to use violence.
 
Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
Windwalker said:
Hogwash, that that verse means what you say. Did he tell them to defend themselves when the priests and soldiers came? Do you think he thought "two swords" was actually "enough" to defend themselves? And when one servant cut off the ear of one of those sent to get them, Jesus did not then command, "Fight! Every last one of you, fight for our lives!", or did he do the exact opposite of "defending themselves" by healing the servant's ear instead?

No. I think what he was saying was "it's enough, because you are not going to need them". And since you likely believe that scripture does not contradict itself between the different gospel authors account of this capture of Jesus, then you have to stack Luke's verse you cite, against Matthew's which says in 26:52, "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword".

Don't make Jesus a liar in your sad defense of right wing Christians loving guns and Jesus on equal footing as the way of God.
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Concerning (Matt. 26:52), Jesus had already been telling His disciples that due to the rejection of Him by Israel, He was now destined for the Cross. This was a settled matter. The sword would do nothing to stop it.

Cncerning (Luke 22;38), these were the new instructions from Jesus that would serve the disciples once He was crucified. They were completely different then previous ones as He was present with them in Body and Spirit. Now He was leaving. Thus every man should have his own sword, for his protection. Not to necessarily further the Kingdom of God, but for their personal protection while Jesus is gone.

So, don't slip on that hogwash of yours.

Good-Ole-Rebel
 
oldbadger

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
sooda said:
I wouldn't advertise that I had a gun. Crooks target homes where they think they can steal guns and sell them.
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Question.
How would a crook get in to this home that they have targeted?

Which days?
What times?
What method of entry.
What for?
Any tools?

Try and build a burglary scenario for us. Please.
 
oldbadger

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Revoltingest said:
Every now & then I hear of proposed legislation to publish
the names of all concealed carry license holders. The
reason you give is one argument against such a law.
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But for a householder to put up signs warning that trained guard dogs are always present, and all residents are gun users could deter loads.
 
halbhh

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
9-10ths_Penguin said:
Why wouldn't it mean that? Presumably, the faithful Christian believes that God sees every need and is more than capable of filling it, so what could a person hope to add by worrying over the situation? That's also one of the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels.


There are strong boundaries? By all means: please give some examples of cases where Jesus says that it's appropriate for his followers to use violence.
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Why should a Christian do something to defend innocents? Answer: Because it's the direct commandment from God. (do you want me to show you?, just ask and I'll be happy to do so more than just the 1 verse below; though it is enough for me already, there is more.)

Believers are under a command then to do something, as they can, which will be various things uniquely in unique situations, and quite a range of possible things like for some fleeing and calling for help via 911 or such, and for others even throwing their body in the way to save others sometimes. Quite a very wide range of unique situations and actions. No fixed simple rule, but the general principle.

Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.
 
Fool

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Good-Ole-Rebel said:
If you don't want to use it, why would you carry it? Foolish statement.

Whether both are Texans is immaterial.

Good-Ole-Rebel
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being Christ like isn't just having a silver tongue. A rotten tree is known by it's rotten fruit.


Welcome to texas
 
74x12

74x12

Well-Known Member
9-10ths_Penguin said:
Two people in opposite sides of a situation both decide to arm themselves, but only one of them is dangerous?
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They are both dangerous but one is dangerous only if you enter their house. That's the key difference between them.
9-10ths_Penguin said:
You're never forced into it.
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How can you say you're never forced into it? Have you personally been in a situation like this?
9-10ths_Penguin said:
There's a difference between defending onesself in the heat of the moment and deliberately keeping deadly weapons so that they'll be at hand in that moment. One shows premeditation.
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Premeditation to defend yourself? I see no crime in that.
9-10ths_Penguin said:
Every death by trauma should be investigated. Doesn't matter if we're talking about a self-defense shooting, hunting accident, falling off a ladder, motor vehicle collision, or a workplace fatal injury. Why on Earth would you consider this unacceptable?
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What I mean is I don't think they should be treated like criminals as we see in some places. It should be an open and shut case. Someone was crazy enough to break in my house and I was afraid for my life and shot them. Self defense.
9-10ths_Penguin said:
As I touched on in my other post: your actions are your responsibility. If you decide to kill an intruder in your home, it was your choice alone. You weren't forced, so don't pretend like you were. If you think it was the best option available, then you should be able to explain why... and "he forced me to do it" isn't an explanation.
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So you want to take victims of home invasion who just defended themselves from home invaders and put them through long, expensive and tedious trials. Where they have the risk of being put in prison because they shot one to many times or made some other "mistake" ... All for what? So criminals can feel safe next time they rob someone's house?

Sorry, I don't get it.
 
Kangaroo Feathers

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
74x12 said:
I'm sure it does. Unfortunately, no deterrent is full proof. It's never going to deter everyone.

How? You're afraid for your life. It's dark. Someone is smashing in your door. You tell them you have a gun and are calling the police. They persist regardless. What do you do?
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Leave the door locked and closed and call the police?
 
Guitar's Cry

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
9-10ths_Penguin said:
You know, if I had to pick one group of people who I would hope had a sense of personal responsibility, it's people who are making plans to use deadly force against other people.

If you keep a gun in your home, what you choose to do with that gun is your choice. Don't pretend that you're powerless to do anything other than kill an intruder; if you think that killing someone in that situation is the right decision, say so. Proudly proclaim why you think it's the best outcome you had available and own your choice.

Don't pretend you have no choice in that situation; of course you do. If you are prepared to take a life in some circumstance, the least you should be able to do is to clearly articulate why you think taking that life was best.
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Unless there are physical restrictions, it is fairly irresponsible to keep a gun "for self defense" but not train in self defense techniques, first aid, and crisis/emergency management. Or invest in security systems for the home if the neighborhood warrants it.
 
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