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Who is Baháʼu'lláh?

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I understand this quote is about the oneness of humanity and love and friendship with every race on earth. It is inclusive of everyone.
No it is not inclusive of everyone!
Read it! It has an agenda!

:- .......If you desire with all your heart, friendship with every race on earth, your thought, spiritual and positive, will spread; it will become the desire of others, growing stronger and stronger, until it reaches the minds of all men. (Baha’i writings)

Now, if it had read :- 'regardless of the minds of all' then that would be agenda free. But please trust me when I tell you that Bahai friendship will not be leading to the desire of all for Bahai..... nope.

Bahai needs to love us as we are.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
No it is not inclusive of everyone!
Read it! It has an agenda!

:- .......If you desire with all your heart, friendship with every race on earth, your thought, spiritual and positive, will spread; it will become the desire of others, growing stronger and stronger, until it reaches the minds of all men. (Baha’i writings)

Now, if it had read :- 'regardless of the minds of all' then that would be agenda free. But please trust me when I tell you that Bahai friendship will not be leading to the desire of all for Bahai..... nope.

Bahai needs to love us as we are.

Ita about desire for friendship with all that’s all. I think you’re seeing agendas.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
We have all come from different backgrounds. I’m from Atheist/ Christian, some are from pagan, others from Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist backgrounds. There is not one race or religion or background that Baha’is have not come from. It is probably the most diverse community in the world and the unique thing is we keep many of our beliefs not asked to give them up. So a Christian would add Muhammad and Buddha and Krishna as well as Baha’u’llah to his beliefs. A Jew would accept Christ and so on, it’s a massive reconciliation of all the worlds religions by accepting the Founders of each as having come from the same God.

Its amazing to me that Baha'is can believe that all religions can come together, in view of mankind's history of religious division. What makes you think this can change? What will alter thousands of years of history and mankind's intractable nature, do you think? We are as divided as we ever were, and I don't see it changing any time soon due to man's efforts. It sounds like a lot of wishful thinking to me.

In Jesus' day, the only Jews who really accepted Jesus were the ones that the Jewish system had rejected...."the lost sheep of the house of Israel" were lost because their shepherds failed to care for them. Remember the parable of the lost sheep? The shepherd left the 99 and went in search of the one that was lost.....the Pharisees didn't do that. The sheep were not lost because they were incorrigibly wicked, but because the Pharisees were corrupt and their rigid distortions of the law made it too difficult to keep.

In accord with Jesus' teachings, his followers were to remove themselves from that old system under an outdated covenant, and they were to come together under a new covenant instituted on the night before Jesus died. All need to be either parties to that covenant (being assigned a role in the heavenly Kingdom) or to be the earthly beneficiaries of it. (citizens of God's Kingdom)

Neither Yahweh or his Christ advocated interfaith.....ever.

God kept the Jews separated from other religious systems for over 1500 years and warned them against adopting their practices....so why would he now declare them all acceptable when he punished his own people with death if they practiced the worship of false gods? The first of the Ten Commandments was that they could have" no other gods" but Yahweh. The gods of these other religious system are not Yahweh. There was no "adding" foreign gods to their worship as the Israelites who adopted Baal worship found out. (1 Kings 18:17-40)

How can it be pretended that all faiths serve the same god in common, when that is completely the opposite of what the Bible teaches? :shrug:
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Ita about desire for friendship with all that’s all. I think you’re seeing agendas.

Yes..... I often do perceive agendas.
But I perceive 'imprinting' just as often.

An imprinted mindset can only perceive only good in everything seen, said, done in (say) Bahais name etc.

I notice that some Bahai can read a Bahai passage and see wonderful brightness and happiness in it. I read the same passage and see wrongness, sometimes even venom.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Its amazing to me that Baha'is can believe that all religions can come together, in view of mankind's history of religious division. What makes you think this can change? What will alter thousands of years of history and mankind's intractable nature, do you think? We are as divided as we ever were, and I don't see it changing any time soon due to man's efforts. It sounds like a lot of wishful thinking to me.

In Jesus' day, the only Jews who really accepted Jesus were the ones that the Jewish system had rejected...."the lost sheep of the house of Israel" were lost because their shepherds failed to care for them. Remember the parable of the lost sheep? The shepherd left the 99 and went in search of the one that was lost.....the Pharisees didn't do that. The sheep were not lost because they were incorrigibly wicked, but because the Pharisees were corrupt and their rigid distortions of the law made it too difficult to keep.

In accord with Jesus' teachings, his followers were to remove themselves from that old system under an outdated covenant, and they were to come together under a new covenant instituted on the night before Jesus died. All need to be either parties to that covenant (being assigned a role in the heavenly Kingdom) or to be the earthly beneficiaries of it. (citizens of God's Kingdom)

Neither Yahweh or his Christ advocated interfaith.....ever.

God kept the Jews separated from other religious systems for over 1500 years and warned them against adopting their practices....so why would he now declare them all acceptable when he punished his own people with death if they practiced the worship of false gods? The first of the Ten Commandments was that they could have" no other gods" but Yahweh. The gods of these other religious system are not Yahweh. There was no "adding" foreign gods to their worship as the Israelites who adopted Baal worship found out. (1 Kings 18:17-40)

How can it be pretended that all faiths serve the same god in common, when that is completely the opposite of what the Bible teaches? :shrug:

Baha’is believe there is only one God and that all humanity are the children of God and that the Kingdom of God will embrace all humanity and all religions will become one.

By the power of God this is being established. Just as the Sun of Jesus rose gradually until it encompassed the earth so too will the oneness of all humanity spread all over the world. We believe God made Himself known to all people through different Faiths and that now the time for the ingathering of all humanity has come.

Christ spoke of this day when He mentioned that there would be one Shepherd and One Fold and those who were not in the fold would be brought together. We believe this refers to all religions becoming united under belief in one God.

Today, people from all religions Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Zoroastrian are becoming united into one common Faith, one universal cause which is none other we believe than the Kingdom of God.

We believe that just as God spoke through Moses and Jesus, He also spoke through Krishna, Buddha, Muhammad and now the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

All these religions, not just Christianity have foretold a Great One to Come Who would bring peace and unity to our divided warring world. We believe that is Baha’u’llah.

Prejudices of race, religion and nationality are being questioned and discarded as humanity is discovering that we are all really one. Those who have divided us into warring factions over the centuries - the religious leaders and kings have had their power seized from them and a new Day has dawned when people can read and write and investigate the truth for themselves and no longer follow blind imitation which has divided us one against the another. The wolf and the lamb, the contending sects, races and nations will find peace and live in the utmost harmony.


We believe that this is the day of the coming of age of the entire human race. Of this day Baha’u’llah spoke to the only western person to meet Him, Orientalist, Professor EG Browne...


That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled—what harm is there in this? . . . Yet so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the “Most Great Peace” shall come. Do not you in Europe need this also? Is not this that which Christ foretold? Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind. (Baha’u’llah)
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Yes..... I often do perceive agendas.
But I perceive 'imprinting' just as often.

An imprinted mindset can only perceive only good in everything seen, said, done in (say) Bahais name etc.

I notice that some Bahai can read a Bahai passage and see wonderful brightness and happiness in it. I read the same passage and see wrongness, sometimes even venom.

The speck in ones own eye maybe first needs to be removed in order to stop seeing specks everywhere? Lol.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
The speck in ones own eye maybe first needs to be removed in order to stop seeing specks everywhere? Lol.
Oh please!
Do stop chucking your filth at me!
I have had no agenda over Bahai........ what I perceived was objective...... you're just seeing things with a brainwashed or imprinted view, is my perception.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
So a Christian would add Muhammad and Buddha and Krishna as well as Baha’u’llah to his beliefs. A Jew would accept Christ and so on, it’s a massive reconciliation of all the worlds religions by accepting the Founders of each as having come from the same God.
It's not that easy. Things that are believed and said about those different "founders" have to be adjusted to fit into the Baha'i scheme of things. That has been the argument here for the last couple of years. The followers of a religion say.... "This is what we believe." And Baha'is come back with... "No, it's not. That is a misinterpretation of what your founder said or did."

God kept the Jews separated from other religious systems for over 1500 years and warned them against adopting their practices....so why would he now declare them all acceptable when he punished his own people with death if they practiced the worship of false gods?
Never have I seen anything that connects the God of Israel to the beliefs of any other people or religion. Their God has them kill the prophets of other religions and warns them against having anything to do with them. Why would their God do that if some of the other religions in ancient times were from him? Same with Christianity, when does anything in the NT include any other religion other than Judaism as having come from the God of Israel?

In prophecies, when does it say that there will be not one, but four "Messiahs"? Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah? Sure, they can prove it to themselves, but there is so many things that contradict what Baha'is say also. There are no great answers to those contradictions. So here we are, still, after two years, arguing the same points.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Oh please!
Do stop chucking your filth at me!
I have had no agenda over Bahai........ what I perceived was objective...... you're just seeing things with a brainwashed or imprinted view, is my perception.

I’ve always believed you ask very good questions which should be asked and have always stated that. But some friendly banter is good for the soul I thought.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
It's not that easy. Things that are believed and said about those different "founders" have to be adjusted to fit into the Baha'i scheme of things. That has been the argument here for the last couple of years. The followers of a religion say.... "This is what we believe." And Baha'is come back with... "No, it's not. That is a misinterpretation of what your founder said or did."

Never have I seen anything that connects the God of Israel to the beliefs of any other people or religion. Their God has them kill the prophets of other religions and warns them against having anything to do with them. Why would their God do that if some of the other religions in ancient times were from him? Same with Christianity, when does anything in the NT include any other religion other than Judaism as having come from the God of Israel?

In prophecies, when does it say that there will be not one, but four "Messiahs"? Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah? Sure, they can prove it to themselves, but there is so many things that contradict what Baha'is say also. There are no great answers to those contradictions. So here we are, still, after two years, arguing the same points.

The oneness of humanity is not actually a Baha’i scheme but a scientific fact that we all belong to the one human race. Baha’u’llah is only removing them artificial barriers which we have erected of race, religion and nationality thus exposing our true identity as being one human family.

Acknowledging our oneness will solve a lot of humanity’s problems.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The oneness of humanity is not actually a Baha’i scheme but a scientific fact that we all belong to the one human race. Baha’u’llah is only removing them artificial barriers which we have erected of race, religion and nationality thus exposing our true identity as being one human family.

Acknowledging our oneness will solve a lot of humanity’s problems.

The fact that we're one human race is totally obvious to 99.9% of people on this planet. What the world needs is tolerance, not some vague meaningless concept like 'oneness'. Nobody even knows what it means.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Admitedly, I know only what I just perused in Wiki about this person

On the topic as to who is Baha'u'llah, this is an enormous question.

Baha'u'llah, translated means 'Glory of God' or 'Glory of the Lord' and this is who Baha'u'llah was.

It is Baha'u'llah that all past faiths are waiting for, that will fulfill the promises recorded in all scriptures. These are some of the Titles that show who is Baha'u'llah:

".. To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the "Everlasting Father," the "Lord of Hosts" come down "with ten thousands of saints"; to Christendom Christ returned "in the glory of the Father," to Shí'ah Islám the return of the Imám Husayn; to Sunní Islám the descent of the "Spirit of God" (Jesus Christ); to the Zoroastrians the promised Sháh-Bahrám; to the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna; to the Buddhists the fifth Buddha.

To show how copiously Baha'u'llah has been foretold in Scripture, this is but a small example taken from the Bible;

"... To Him Isaiah, the greatest of the Jewish prophets, had alluded as the "Glory of the Lord," the "Everlasting Father," the "Prince of Peace," the "Wonderful," the "Counsellor," the "Rod come forth out of the stem of Jesse" and the "Branch grown out of His roots," Who "shall be established upon the throne of David," Who "will come with strong hand," Who "shall judge among the nations," Who "shall smite the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips slay the wicked," and Who "shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." Of Him David had sung in his Psalms, acclaiming Him as the "Lord of Hosts" and the "King of Glory." To Him Haggai had referred as the "Desire of all nations," and Zachariah as the "Branch" Who "shall grow up out of His place," and "shall build the Temple of the Lord." Ezekiel had extolled Him as the "Lord" Who "shall be king over all the earth," while to His day Joel and Zephaniah had both referred as the "day of Jehovah," the latter describing it as "a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, a day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers..... "

There is many many more passages that refer to Baha'u'llah.

Baha'u'llah has shown us we are but one people and have but One God.

RegardsTony
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Baha’is believe there is only one God and that all humanity are the children of God and that the Kingdom of God will embrace all humanity and all religions will become one.

My belief is that there is one God also, but his activities and his own agenda, as reported in the Bible (his only communication with the human race) reveal the exclusive nature of his worship. His one truth was the possession of one people. He gave them his laws and provided a history of NO tolerance of what he deemed to be false religion. (Exodus 20:3) Those of other nations and religions who wanted to serve the true God, had to leave their false religious beliefs behind, learn about Yahweh, and adopt the worship of “the only true God” and of the only “Christ” he ever sent into the world. (John 17:3)

This begs the question of why false religion even exists?

If we go back to the beginning, we will see why. A rebellious spirit started his own religious empire by siphoning the worship of the true God over to himself. How did he do that? He divided man’s loyalties by lying to them....he lied about God, he lied about his motives and he dismantled the penalty for their defection. Thus he separated them from the true God by becoming a substitute god for them.

Humans, now with a sinful nature, were easy to manipulate. Satan could create an empire where humans would give him the worship and glory instead of the true God. How Yahweh handled the situation with his free willed creatures was nothing short of genius!

He allowed them to experience the full consequences of living under the rule of the god they chose. (Luke 4:5-8) It was now a battle for the hearts and minds of men. Like an extraordinary court battle, God would provide his witnesses and satan would provide his. We would have to choose our god according to the evidence, and determine our own destiny in the process.

The devil is so masterful at deception, that the Bible says he can “transform himself into an angel of light” and that his “ministers” (those he uses to deceive) will be viewed as “ministers of righteousness”....so here you have the contenders, the issue, and the ‘modus operandi’.

God is not bringing all mankind together as one....quite the opposite in fact....he is separating people into two camps....”sheep and goats” and Jesus is clear about what the difference is between the two....what the criteria is for life....and the outcome for both as well. (Matthew 25:31-34: 41; 46)

One inherits everlasting life because of staying loyal to the true God and obeying the teachings of Jesus Christ....these will qualify as citizens of God’s incoming Kingdom. But those who choose to serve other gods (all created personas of the devil) will be shown the door to everlasting death. That is not something Baha’is want to hear. Their beliefs are tantamount to telling God his business and dictating their own preferred outcome. Sorry....God has already told us the ending....and it does not fit the Baha’i model at all.

By the power of God this is being established. Just as the Sun of Jesus rose gradually until it encompassed the earth so too will the oneness of all humanity spread all over the world. We believe God made Himself known to all people through different Faiths and that now the time for the ingathering of all humanity has come.

The Bible is at odds with you on that. The gathering of God’s worshippers is along religious lines, with strict boundaries about what is acceptable to God and what is not.
Jesus was clear....those “not doing the will of his Father” will not be citizens of the Kingdom. (Matthew 7:21-23) Interfaith is not ever promoted in the Bible and it will never be tolerated by the true God because of who created all religion in opposition to Yahweh.

Christ spoke of this day when He mentioned that there would be one Shepherd and One Fold and those who were not in the fold would be brought together. We believe this refers to all religions becoming united under belief in one God.

That is not even close to what Jesus said. Jesus was Jewish and he referred to himself as the “Fine Shepherd” who would bring his sheep out of a corrupted religious system and into a new fold. That particular fold was chosen for rulership in heaven, but because they were a limited number, there were “other sheep” who would come into his fold, who were not destined for heaven, but who would become citizens of God’s Kingdom here on earth. All were to be viewed as brothers in Christ, but with different destinies.

They are seen in Revelation 7:2-4; 9-10; 13-14 as an unnumbered “great crowd” standing apart from the 144,000 chosen for heaven. They are survivors of the coming “great tribulation” which is the prelude to the final war of God at Armageddon. Those who are not part of that “great crowd” will be judged as goats.

Today, people from all religions Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Zoroastrian are becoming united into one common Faith, one universal cause which is none other we believe than the Kingdom of God.

Jehovah’s Witnesses can say the same thing. But we recognize that God’s worship is exclusive of any other belief system. There is no such thing as a universal religion in this present system and it is a pipe dream to imagine that religious divisions and hatred could ever be eradicated by human efforts.

God’s Kingdom is not coming in like a lamb, but like a lion. It is going to be introduced by God’s power according to his will, and it will crush all opposers in its wake. (Daniel 2:44)

We believe that just as God spoke through Moses and Jesus, He also spoke through Krishna, Buddha, Muhammad and now the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

We all have free will and we have all been exposed to the truth. Some are drawn to it, others are repelled by it.....that is the divisive nature of it. (Matthew 10:32-39) Jesus said that it is God who draws people to his truth. (John 6:44: 65)

All these religions, not just Christianity have foretold a Great One to Come Who would bring peace and unity to our divided warring world. We believe that is Baha’u’llah.
You are free to believe whatever you wish.....that is just the point. We are all choosing our god and our own future by who and what we choose to believe. The power of God’s word is such that it gets to the core of who we are. We have to demonstrate whose side we are on. (Hebrews 4:12-13; Matthew 12:30)

Prejudices of race, religion and nationality are being questioned and discarded as humanity is discovering that we are all really one. Those who have divided us into warring factions over the centuries - the religious leaders and kings have had their power seized from them and a new Day has dawned when people can read and write and investigate the truth for themselves and no longer follow blind imitation which has divided us one against the another. The wolf and the lamb, the contending sects, races and nations will find peace and live in the utmost harmony.

This is simply not true. If the world is becoming more united it is because of casting off the shackles of religion and adopting atheism because it looks like freedom. Violence and immorality is what this world feeds on....when it’s not real, it is sought in graphic, gratuitous entertainment. Children in schools are more violent and immoral than they have ever been....social media facilitates this more than anything. Only God will put an end to this rot which the Bible ties in with Christ’s return. (Matthew 24:37-39) When he sits in judgment there will be no prisoners. There is only life or death....that’s it...and by our choices we will reap what we have sown.

We believe that this is the day of the coming of age of the entire human race. Of this day Baha’u’llah spoke to the only western person to meet Him, Orientalist, Professor EG Browne...

That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled—what harm is there in this? . . . Yet so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the “Most Great Peace” shall come. Do not you in Europe need this also? Is not this that which Christ foretold? Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind. (Baha’u’llah)

Baha’u’llah Is not the one people should be listening to. He is self-proclaimed, with no credential whatsoever except his words. You are free to believe him, but if he is a “minister” of the “angel of light” then don’t expect him to appear to be anything but a saint, telling you what you want to hear.

Sorry, but I see a great con job being served to you people. The reason why you swallow it is because you are good people who want to believe that this outcome can be achieved as Baha’u’llah says it will......but God never said he was going to save “good” people....he says that he will save obedient ones. We have to be found “doing the will” of God, not following the words of a false prophet because of having our “ears tickled”. (2 Timothy 4:3-4)

That is how I see things from the Bible.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This begs the question of why false religion even exists?

I see It is quite simple. It is all that man adds to what was the original Message and what it was actually offering.

As you are aware, Jesus the Christ warned about this and also offered many are called few are chosen

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Baha’u’llah Is not the one people should be listening to. He is self-proclaimed, with no credential whatsoever except his words. You are free to believe him, but if he is a “minister” of the “angel of light” then don’t expect him to appear to be anything but a saint, telling you what you want to hear

The criteria is the Bible and not one's own understanding.

You are free to quote a Fruit of the Spirit of Jesus the Christ, that was not a fruit of Baha'u'llah. We can share them In fact as it will answer the OP question.

By their fruits you shall know them.

Regards Tony
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
The fact that we're one human race is totally obvious to 99.9% of people on this planet. What the world needs is tolerance, not some vague meaningless concept like 'oneness'. Nobody even knows what it means.

Yes I agree it means more than just a concept. It entails conflicting nations, religions and races seeing each other in a good light. And legal as well as political measures need to be adopted to put humanity’s needs above self interest.

Lip service is not enough I fully agree. . Things like universal human rights needs to become part of each nations constitution and war needs to be outlawed,
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
First and foremost, IMO, is the challenge of identifying "mutually agreed upon" usable and applicable Baha'i writings. As the Baha'i Reference Library says, in the words of Baha'u'llah, "Immerse yourselves in the ocean of my words." He wasn't shy about writing his words.
If I go to the Baha'i Reference Library, @ Baha'i Reference Library , I find something that I would normally think is "authoritative" ground to take a stand on, but because it was not composed by the Bab, Baha'u'llah, or Abdu'l-Baha, or Shogi Effendi, it's 2nd level (or more) authoritative, e.g.

Consequently, when you say "there's nothing in the Baha'i writings that refers to Paul not literally seeing the resurrected Jesus" and if I respond with:
  • The Great Resurrection

    The Day of Judgment is also the Day of Resurrection, of the raising of the dead. St. Paul in his First Epistle to the Corinthians says:—221
    Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.—I Cor. xv, 51–53.
    As to the meaning of these passages about the raising of the dead, Bahá’u’lláh writes in the Book of Íqán:—
    … By the terms “life” and “death,” spoken of in the scriptures, is intended the life of faith and the death of unbelief. The generality of the people, owing to their failure to grasp the meaning of these words, rejected and despised the person of the Manifestation, deprived themselves of the light of His divine guidance, and refused to follow the example of that immortal Beauty. …

    … Even as Jesus said: “Ye must be born again” [John iii, 7]. Again He saith: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” [John iii, 5–6]. The purpose of these words is that whosoever in every dispensation is born of the Spirit and is quickened by the breath of the Manifestation of Holiness, he verily is of those that have attained unto “life” and “resurrection” and have entered into the “paradise” of the love of God. And whosoever is not of them, is condemned to “death” and “deprivation,” to the “fire” of unbelief, and to the “wrath” of God. …

    In every age and century, the purpose of the Prophets of God and their chosen ones hath been no other but to affirm the spiritual significance of the terms “life,” “resurrection,” and “judgment.” … Wert thou to attain to but a dewdrop of the crystal waters of divine knowledge, thou wouldst readily realize that true life is not the life of the flesh but the life of the spirit. For the life of the flesh is common to both men and animals, whereas the life of 222 the spirit is possessed only by the pure in heart who have quaffed from the ocean of faith and partaken of the fruit of certitude. This life knoweth no death, and this existence is crowned by immortality. Even as it hath been said: “He who is a true believer liveth both in this world and in the world to come.” If by “life” be meant this earthly life, it is evident that death must needs overtake it.—Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 114, 118, 120–21.
    According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

    Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.
Then you're going to tell me, "Not so fast, everything you underlined is the opinion of Dr. Esslemont and not part of the Baha'i Writings. It's just the opinion of an individual Baha'i which carries no more weight than anything anyone else says and looks a little dated."

If I then say, "Okay, so there's nothing in the authoritative writings of Baha'i that says Paul did not literally see the resurrected Jesus. There is, however, something in Paul's writings that says that the resurrected AND ascended Jesus appeared to Paul as a Entity of blinding light and spoke to him, you're going to tell me: 'Not so fast, seeing a bright light and hearing a voice is not the same as seeing the resurrected Jesus that others claimed to have seen shortly after Jesus' crucifixion. What Paul experienced must have been a metaphorical, symbolical, figurative, non-physical experience, because, as Dr. Esslemont says: "the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body." Stale-mate, wanna play another round?"

No thanks.

The Baha’i Writings generally refer to the writings of the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh and to a lesser extent Abdu’l-Baha. Then we have the authoritative interpretations of Shoghi Effendi and elucidations of the Universe House of Justice. I’m not trying to be difficult or obtrusive.

Bahá’u’lláh and the new era is an excellent starting point for someone learning about the Baha’i Faith for whatever reason including criticising it and enabling one to tell the Baha’is how wrong we are. The first five chapters were reviewed by Abdu’l-Baha so for these reason are included in the official Baha’i library. However the author’s words (Dr J E Esselmont) isn’t accorded the same status as those of the Baha’i writings for obvious reasons. In the section on the resurrection which you have copied and pasted in its entirety, Dr Esselmont quotes from Corinthians and then the Kitab-i-Iqan (one of Bahá’u’lláh’s most important works) to provide an explanation of the resurrection from a Baha’i perspective. Although it is Dr Esselmont’s conclusions you have underlined I personally agree with his opinion. However I’m under no obligation to accept his conclusions and opinions as you are not required to accept all the opinions and conclusions of Christian scholars.

I am impressed that you have taken the time to do some research. As you have noted, the Baha’i writings are vast. Studying Bahá’u’lláh and the new era is a great place to start.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I see that you love the Lord very much and it is my hope and prayer that your love for Jesus grow stronger and stronger day by day.

Our belief in Baha’u’llah is because we believe Him to be Christ returned in the glory of the Father. I couldn’t myself believe in Jesus first coming and turn away from Him when He returned again as that to me would mean I am unfaithful to Him.

He said to watch and pray for a reason I believe because if we didn’t watch we could miss Him. I became aware of the Glory of God and accepted Him and that was my duty as a Christian.

Also in Revelation I understand an entire chapter is dedicated to Muhammad but Christian scholars understand not so dismiss Islam as a false religion.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Really? Ha! I believe in Jesus' literal resurrection and ascension, and you're asking me if I think seeing and touching the wounds of the resurrected Jesus might be "a strange way of determining his identity"? Don't you think it's a little late to be worrying about whether or not something I believe is strange? :D

If you saw someone who, last you saw him, was dead or dying, and whom you never expected to see again and who said, "Hi, Adrian, I died but I'm back", how would you go about verifying his claim?

You are right @Terry Sampson. The whole story of a man rising from the dead after being entombed for 3 days, suddenly appearing to Disciples within a locked room, various other appearances where the text suggests so much more going on than a literal telling of a story, finally culminating in an ascension through the stratosphere to be with His Father in heaven is strange to the extreme. Yet you say to the Baha’is who disbelieve this story literally that what we believe in nonsense!

Of course the earliest dated New Testament book to mention the resurrection is St Paul’s first Epistle to Corinthians dated around 53-54 AD. The next earliest book to mention the resurrection is the Gospel of Mark thought to be composed between 66 and 70 AD. So St Paul’s resurrection is relatively light on any specifics and details, then we have the synoptic Gospels Mark then Luke then Matthew that successively embellish the story with the final Gospel of John being written between 90-110 AD that provides the most detailed account. Perhaps the story began with Paul in the first instance and the story through progressive retelling has been changed and adapted. I suspect having a God man resurrect from the dead then rise up to heaven would have resonated well with a Greco-Roman audience as opposed to the Jews.

Let’s examine the text of the Gospel of John, the only book that refers to the doubting Thomas.

You are no doubt acquainted with the story of the initial appearance of Jesus from within a locked room.

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.


So no Thomas but interesting how the viewing of the wounds from the crucifixion are required to complete the identification process. A man whom had been my Rabbi for three years who had performed many miracles materialises in a locked room. He clearly looks and sounds like Jesus. That’s enough for me. I don’t need to be inspecting wounds.

Now you mentioned Jesus had now acquired an imperishable body as opposed to a physical body. Don’t you think it a little strange the imperishable body has residual crucifixion wounds?

Back to our doubting Thomas not present at the first appearance to the Disciples.

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

So Thomas has this need to not only see the wounds but to physically to thrust his hand into one of the wounds. That is quite morbid if taken literally.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


So only when Thomas thrusts his hand into the wound of the wounded imperishable body of Jesus do the lights finally go on. The real reason for this narrative becomes clear with the next verse.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

We don’t need to have any of these sightings to believe.

The true intent of the author’s narrative is now made clear. It is not to inform us of literal historical events but as an assistance to our faith

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 20:19-31
 
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