Who is to Blame?

rrobs said:

Throughout history there have been an untold number of atrocities supposedly committed by those who hold to the scriptures (Bible). Christianity is considered by many to be the worse thing that could have ever existed. But is Christianity really to blame?

Since the end of the first century Christianity is much more aligned with Greek philosophy and Egyptian mythology than with the Bible. The trinity, immortal soul, eternity in the ether, are but a few of the doctrines held by Orthodox Christianity. But these doctrines come straight out of the Greek and Egyptian cultures and have no direct evidence in the scriptures themselves.

Would it not therefore be more appropriate to blame Greek philosophy and Egyptian mythology for the above mentioned atrocities? Can you imagine Jesus being party to the inquisition?

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The religion is designed to create empire. We have chosen people. We have monarchy as a divine form of government. So when the emperor, who is treated as God by the religion, tells the farmers to go to the next province and kill the heathens who are not chosen the farmers suspend the golden rule and kill their neighbors. Throw in a false flag attack to get the locals ignited to fight and empires are born! The most popular religions were or are designed to build empire which is why they were spread so widely supplanting the local religions of the people who were conquered.

ChristineM said:

You are a rare breed.

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I believe that is true. Many of the Christians I have talked to say they do not have the close relationship with Jesus that I have. I am sure I am not worthy of such a gift but I am thankful for it just the same.

shunyadragon said:

I am referring to religions with God. One of the problems with some ancient religions is they believe they are the only one with God, they often reject or conditionally accept science, and have to deal with modern problems like slavery with gerrymandered interpretations, or simply the lack of consistent guidance..

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I believe you can't get anything better than Christianity no matter ow old or new it is.

e.r.m. said:

Such atrocities were committed well after the first century and after the church had let go of the standard. Correct, I don't see Jesus participating in the inquisition, and I also don't see the first century Church participating in the Crusades.

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I believe if you read about the messages to the churches in Revelations then you will see what the first century church was really like.

Muffled said:

I believe you can't get anything better than Christianity no matter ow old or new it is.

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That is just what every one of the diverse conflicting belief systems claim as the claim they are the only 'true' belief. Why should I believe you over thousands of others that make the same claim and believe you are wrong?

Muffled said:

I believe that is true. Many of the Christians I have talked to say they do not have the close relationship with Jesus that I have. I am sure I am not worthy of such a gift but I am thankful for it just the same.

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I do not believe you are that rare, unless you believe that God tells the 'truth' to only a select few.

Muffled said:

I believe if you read about the messages to the churches in Revelations then you will see what the first century church was really like.

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I have. They rooted out false apostles Revelation 2:2, not torture or slaughter them.

e.r.m. said:

Such atrocities were committed well after the first century and after the church had let go of the standard. Correct, I don't see Jesus participating in the inquisition, and I also don't see the first century Church participating in the Crusades.

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Thanks for your reply. Someone once told me not to preach about God. Why? Because over time people have come to view God as an evil entity, who kills people for pleasure and sends evil upon the world. They told me instead to preach about Jesus. After all nobody could accuse Jesus of ever killing someone, making them sick, or otherwise destroying their lives. How could anybody object to anything Jesus did as recorded in the scriptures? They say he did nothing but good.

But don't the scriptures reveal the truth that Jesus is an exact image of God? Of course they do. So if Jesus wouldn't kill, steal, and destroy (that would be the devil 10:10), then neither would God. Prior to Jesus, the people of the OT were simply not equipped to understand the true nature of God or the devil. They didn't have the connection with God that Jesus made possible by his death and resurrection. Therefore, God "took the rap" for all the evil caused by the devil. He looked ahead to the time when His son would come into the world, reestablish our connection with Him, and reveal to us the true cause of sin and death.

What kind of world did God create? What was His intention for mankind? The scriptures say everything God made was good (Gen 1:31). Part of that goodness was free will. God was not interested in creating robots or puppets that would love, obey, and worship Him without any choice. It certainly wasn't God's will for Adam to disobey and allow for sin and death to enter the scene (Rom 5:12).

I often wonder what Christians think the devil is doing when God supposedly sends sickness, death, poverty, etc, into the world. Do they imagine he stands by with a big grin on his face as he watches God destroy lives, doing his dirty work for him? What a bunch of hog wash! God is love. He does not take babies away from their parents because He wants another feather in His cap. Whenever I hear someone say, "God took my baby to be with Him in Heaven," I think what they are actually saying is, "why did God murder my baby because He wants to make me miserable for the rest of my life?" That may be the God of orthodoxy, but it ain't my God! Again, I always ask myself, what would Jesus do in any given situation? Well, that is exactly what God would do. Neither one of them was fond of destroying people's lives in any way, shape, or form.

Forgive my prattling on, but when it comes to the things of God, I am very animated. I thrive on preaching God's wonderful, matchless word. Thanks for bearing with me!

dfnj said:

The religion is designed to create empire. We have chosen people. We have monarchy as a divine form of government. So when the emperor, who is treated as God by the religion, tells the farmers to go to the next province and kill the heathens who are not chosen the farmers suspend the golden rule and kill their neighbors. Throw in a false flag attack to get the locals ignited to fight and empires are born! The most popular religions were or are designed to build empire which is why they were spread so widely supplanting the local religions of the people who were conquered.

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Interestingly, the scriptures declare Jesus to be an exact image of God. Surely you wouldn't accuse Jesus of having done anything but good. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I really don't think you would.

If the above is true, that Jesus was a perfect representation of God, and he never killed anyone, then we must ask ourselves why the OT is full of stories that say God kills people. We have two choices,

1) It is not true that Jesus is a perfect image of God, or
2) The OT is full of lies and God did many things that Jesus never would have done.

There's the problem. Here is my answer, which I believe the scriptures corroborate:

Prior to Jesus, the people of the OT were simply not equipped to understand the true nature of God or the devil. They didn't have the connection with God which Adam lost and Jesus made possible again by his death and resurrection. Therefore, God "took the rap" for all the evil caused by the devil. He looked ahead to the time when His son would come into the world, reestablish our connection with Him, and reveal to us the true cause of sin and death, that is the devil.

Take care...

rrobs said:

Atheism is not an automatic sentence to eternal suffering. Revelation tells us that God will throw the truly evil people into a lake of fire. Now think about that; How long can a person survive in a lake of fire? Certainly not forever! It'll be a flash. It is called "the second death" in Revelation. Nobody feels anything in death. Dead is dead. According to the scriptures there is no consciousness in death.

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rrobs said:

But don't the scriptures reveal the truth that Jesus is an exact image of God? Of course they do. So if Jesus wouldn't kill, steal, and destroy (that would be the devil 10:10), then neither would God

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I'm trying to resolve your two statements here. In statement one, you tell us God will throw people into the lake of fire in order to snuff their lives out forever. You clearly state their is no punishment in the fire, just certain death...absolute annihilation.

In statement two you tell us Jesus wouldn't kill so neither would God. Since it's God doing the throwing here, how do you resolve statement two with statement one?

Oeste said:

I'm trying to resolve your two statements here. In statement one, you tell us God will throw people into the lake of fire in order to snuff their lives out forever. You clearly state their is no punishment in the fire, just certain death...absolute annihilation.

In statement two you tell us Jesus wouldn't kill so neither would God. Since it's God doing the throwing here, how do you resolve statement two with statement one?

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Good question. Perhaps it has something to do with different times. God has changed how He deals with humanity as the situation changes, e.g., paradise, law, grace, judgement. After all, wouldn't you think things changed when, for example, Jesus rose from the dead? I would imagine they will change again when he returns, not as a lamb led to the slaughter, but as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

That's just off the top of my head. Maybe it's right and maybe not. It doesn't pay to make snap judgements about the scriptures. I have many questions. Some have taken me many years to decide. But I always begin my research with the premise that the scriptures are truth, which means there can be no contradictions. That's what Jesus said. Of course, belief is optional. I've cleared up many apparent contradictions with continued research.

rrobs said:

How could anybody object to anything Jesus did as recorded in the scriptures? They say he did nothing but good.

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I don't think we've been reading the same Bible, then. The scriptures I know describe Jesus doing and saying many objectionable things.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

I don't think we've been reading the same Bible, then. The scriptures I know describe Jesus doing and saying many objectionable things.

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By today's standards, anybody that says anything is offensive to somebody. Having said that, what did he say to offend anybody? Calling a murderer a murderer maybe?

Take care

ChristineM said:

The bible is a pretty horrendous book, particularly the OT. It condones genocide, murder, theft, slavery, rape and much more.

Many christians say only the NT is relevant to them but a am guessing that every one of them had studied the OT and learned from it.

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That is always baffling to me...Without the old testament, you have no ten commandments, and no "prophecies" including those supposedly of the Messiah (Jesus),

rrobs said:

Any thoughts as to why witches and other apostates were to be killed?

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Yes, several. I’ll begin with the fact that witches dabbled in making the dead live. But according to Judaic thought, coming back to life was reserved for Deity. The witch threatened the Judaic fanatical observance of monotheism. Hence, get rid of the threat.

rrobs said:

Of course Christianity is a product of the New Testament.

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Nope. The NT stuff didn’t begin to get written until about the year 45 C.E. There were certainly Christians before then.It would be more correct to say that the NT is a product of Christianity.

rrobs said:

Throughout history there have been an untold number of atrocities supposedly committed by those who hold to the scriptures (Bible). Christianity is considered by many to be the worse thing that could have ever existed. But is Christianity really to blame?

Since the end of the first century Christianity is much more aligned with Greek philosophy and Egyptian mythology than with the Bible. The trinity, immortal soul, eternity in the ether, are but a few of the doctrines held by Orthodox Christianity. But these doctrines come straight out of the Greek and Egyptian cultures and have no direct evidence in the scriptures themselves.

Would it not therefore be more appropriate to blame Greek philosophy and Egyptian mythology for the above mentioned atrocities? Can you imagine Jesus being party to the inquisition?

Click to expand...

Israel could not blame Canaanite and Egyptian philosophy when they transgressed. How far are we looking to push the fullness of grace / mercy?

Christianity or Cultural Christianity is the largest religion with a strong foundation of unaccountability; faith without works. what else can one expect but lack of standards and morals or openness to it over a period of time considering the hearts of men.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

sojourner said:

Yes, several. I’ll begin with the fact that witches dabbled in making the dead live. But according to Judaic thought, coming back to life was reserved for Deity. The witch threatened the Judaic fanatical observance of monotheism. Hence, get rid of the threat.


Nope. The NT stuff didn’t begin to get written until about the year 45 C.E. There were certainly Christians before then.It would be more correct to say that the NT is a product of Christianity.

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Technically the NT has not been yet been put into effect.

Jer 31:31,

The context shows that this verse is speaking about the time when Jesus returns to establish the everlasting Kingdom. This verse makes it clear that the new covenant will be between God and Israel.

Christianity is another animal altogether. We really have nothing to do with the OT or the yet to come NT. Paul speaks of the place Christians have in God's plan. We are part of what the scriptures refer to as the "mystery." Just look up what Paul says about the mystery.

It is ironic that the churches talk very little about this mystery despite the fact that it is "what's happening" in this age of grace, the time between Jesus' first and second coming. They want to mix up what God intended to be for Israel with themselves. Tradition is too often accepted as truth when in actuality it usually has little to do with truth.

This age of the mystery began on the day of Pentecost and will end when Jesus returns in the clouds to raise the dead Christians and gather those still alive on that day. Thessalonians has plenty to say on that.

1Thess 4:13-18,

The clarity and simplicity of God's word is amazing. Tradition truly does make that word of none effect as Jesus said in Matt 15:6.

Take care.

Iymus said:

Christianity or Cultural Christianity is the largest religion with a strong foundation of unaccountability; faith without works. what else can one expect but lack of standards and morals or openness to it over a period of time considering the hearts of men.

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That's because the churches have strayed far from what God intended. They can't even tell the difference between one and three (the trinity). Furthermore they make such an absurd concept the very foundation of their ungodly doctrine. Where could it go form there if not into a world where nothing has an ounce of intrinsic meaning?

God tells Christians that they should love their neighbor. He clarifies that admonition by saying love works no ill to that neighbor. Don't blame God or the scriptures. They are plain enough, but having God given free will, too many people choose tradition over truth.

shunyadragon said:

That is just what every one of the diverse conflicting belief systems claim as the claim they are the only 'true' belief. Why should I believe you over thousands of others that make the same claim and believe you are wrong?

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I believe that as God I say so.

shunyadragon said:

I do not believe you are that rare, unless you believe that God tells the 'truth' to only a select few.

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I believe He tells it to those who will listen.