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If you were shown irrefutable evidence that heaven or hell did not exist, would that interest you?

If you were shown irrefutable evidence that heaven or hell did not exist would you

  • Modify your faith in light of the evidence

    Votes: 9 33.3%
  • Accept the evidence while keeping your faith intact.

    Votes: 4 14.8%
  • Ignore the evidence and continue as though you had not seen it

    Votes: 2 7.4%
  • Other, please explain?

    Votes: 12 44.4%

  • Total voters
    27

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Inspired by a thread by @ideogenous_mover,
If an entity offered you as an atheist an after life after you lived, would that interest you

A question to all those with belief in the afterlife. If you were shown irrefutable evidence that heaven or hell did not exist would that,
evidence cause you to modify your faith? Would your faith in heaven/hell remain firm? Or would you dismiss the evidence?

Of course I cannot provide such irrefutable evidence, only circumstantial which is of no value to a believer.
there is no after life but there is an after form.

energy cannot be created, or destroyed, it simply transforms or transfers.

this thread goes against the first law of thermodynamics.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
there is no after life but there is an after form.

energy cannot be created, or destroyed, it simply transforms or transfers.

this thread goes against the first law of thermodynamics.

That comes under other, it is also my view.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
That comes under other, it is also my view.
unfortunately for the after life believers, life is not form. if it is, which form? the one at a year old? the one at 22? 33? 44?

which one is I, from which nothing did I become?
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
We are not discussing evidence but belief.

we? you're speaking of yourself in the plural?

because everyone is a believer but not everyone tests their beliefs against reality. so you're speaking solely to those who would not question their beliefs?

because i personally don't read the OP that way.
 

Dave Watchman

Active Member
You are entitled to your opinion and view of education.

good luck with that

Education?

“The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed,
nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.” - Luke 17:20​

And if the scientific method were to fail, as you apparently believe, you would still do better defaulting to a belief in God.

If it is true that we are incapable of determining whether or not God exists, we will still be placing our bets one way or the other.

One wager leads to life eternal, the latter leads to eternal destruction.

And being shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

Google knows it:

"Wagering for God superdominates wagering against God: the worst outcome associated with wagering for God (status quo) is at least as good as the best outcome associated with wagering against God (status quo); and if God exists, the result of wagering for God is strictly better than the result of wagering against God. (The fact that the result is much better does not matter yet.)

Pascal draws the conclusion at this point that you should wager for God.​

Pascal’s Wager (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

The Demons know it too, and they shudder.

I think you believe.

Otherwise you wouldn't be here with a curiosity, or a concern about it.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
we? you're speaking of yourself in the plural?

because everyone is a believer but not everyone tests their beliefs against reality. so you're speaking solely to those who would not question their beliefs?

because i personally don't read the OP that way.

We. As in those who visit this thread

I made it clear who i was addressing the thread to. If that doesnt spply to you then fair enough?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Inspired by a thread by @ideogenous_mover,
If an entity offered you as an atheist an after life after you lived, would that interest you

A question to all those with belief in the afterlife. If you were shown irrefutable evidence that heaven or hell did not exist would that,
evidence cause you to modify your faith? Would your faith in heaven/hell remain firm? Or would you dismiss the evidence?

Of course I cannot provide such irrefutable evidence, only circumstantial which is of no value to a believer.

What if they turned out to be the devil. :smilingimp:

I suppose it would have to depend on the terms of service.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Education?

“The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed,
nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.” - Luke 17:20​

And if the scientific method were to fail, as you apparently believe, you would still do better defaulting to a belief in God.

If it is true that we are incapable of determining whether or not God exists, we will still be placing our bets one way or the other.

One wager leads to life eternal, the latter leads to eternal destruction.

And being shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

Google knows it:

"Wagering for God superdominates wagering against God: the worst outcome associated with wagering for God (status quo) is at least as good as the best outcome associated with wagering against God (status quo); and if God exists, the result of wagering for God is strictly better than the result of wagering against God. (The fact that the result is much better does not matter yet.)

Pascal draws the conclusion at this point that you should wager for God.​

Pascal’s Wager (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

The Demons know it too, and they shudder.

I think you believe.

Otherwise you wouldn't be here with a curiosity, or a concern about it.

Why are you telling be what i believe? If the scientific method were to fail then it would need to be revised to account for the failure... That's the scientific method for ya.

Actually the default is no god, god is a taught concept.

Nope one leads to delusionment the other is leas by physical evidence.

Pascal's wager is a biassed concept and had often been refuted, here are 13 of those refutations
https://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/nogod/pascal.htm

Think what you want, i im here to learn more about why religion and religious people can be so narrow minded.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Inspired by a thread by @ideogenous_mover,
If an entity offered you as an atheist an after life after you lived, would that interest you

A question to all those with belief in the afterlife. If you were shown irrefutable evidence that heaven or hell did not exist would that,
evidence cause you to modify your faith? Would your faith in heaven/hell remain firm? Or would you dismiss the evidence?

Of course I cannot provide such irrefutable evidence, only circumstantial which is of no value to a believer.
I would not be interested, but I can actually show that the popular ideas of heaven and hell are not biblical... so can provide proof that "heaven" and "hell" do not exist in the bible -INASMUCH AS heaven is thought to be our eternal reward elsewhere where we go when we die and hell a punishment with no possible end where we go when we die.

First, it is important to to note that there are three heavens mentioned in the bible -and three things associated with the word "hell".

The first heaven is the Earth's atmosphere/the sky. the second the entire universe/space and the third is the present specific place of the seat of God's throne.
2 Corinthians 12:2-4 "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter."

As far as hell is concerned, there is Hades/Sheol -which is essentially the grave -the state of death and basically a hole in the ground -such as when Lazarus was raised.
Then there is Tartaros, which is the present state of restraint of the sinning angels.
Finally, there is Gehenna -the "lake of fire".

According to scripture.... ALL WHO HAVE DIED EXCEPT CHRIST ARE NOW STILL DEAD. They are not in heaven -and none have been cast into hell.
The dead in Christ are not raised until his return, the living in Christ are caught up with them into the air (but will then reign on Earth under Christ -not in/from heaven) -and all else will not be raised until after the thousand years which follow.
1 Thes 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
Rev:20:4 (last part) .......and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
Rev 5:10And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”

So... the dead will be resurrected from "hell" -as in the grave.

Some believe the following to mean the spirits of dead people, but it refers to the sinning angels in "prison"/Tartaros.
1 Pet 3:19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient...
As in..... Jude 1:6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
(Even here, "everlasting" is qualified with "unto the judgment" -essentially "permanent...until".)

Then there is Gehenna/the lake of fire. It is written that God is ABLE to destroy both body and spirit in Gehenna, but it also makes clear elsewhere that it is not what he INTENDS TO DO or WILL DO there.

NONE have been cast there yet. The first to be cast there will be the beast and false prophet at the return of Christ.
Rev 19:20"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Even Satan is not cast there until the thousand years is finished. He is thrown into a "bottomless pit" for a thousand years until loosed a short time -then cast into Gehenna.
Rev 20:10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(It does say forever and ever -but remember that such things as "everlasting", etc. CAN be UNTIL this or that.)

No other humans will be cast there until after the thousand years -at the judgment.
However... not ALL in the judgment will be cast there -only those whose works were not good. They are judged according to works -not specific beliefs or religious practices.
Those whose works were good will receive eternal life then!
Those whose works were not good will "have their part" in the lake of fire.

Of those who are cast into the lake of fire it is written....
1 Cor 3:13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

So... though it is called the "second death", experiencing the lake of fire need not be absolutely never-ending. It is part of a purification for those who did not respond to anything else.

FURTHRMORE... DEATH and the GRAVE are cast into/destroyed by the fire!

The language is tricky in the following because the above is written first, but remember that those in the fire are saved by it.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

There is much more to explain, but this should suffice for now.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Neither can the big bang. All the matter in the universe coming from a singularity the size of a pinhead? Really..? o_O

I think you have the wrong idea of a singularity and there are more hypothesis (note that word) of how the universe formed (i know 28)
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
Every particle of mass in the universe leaves an imprint in spacetime. Yet, we as people of limited senses and understanding can be sure that our conscious mind leaves behind no trace of existence?

...I wouldn't be so confident in that.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I would not be interested, but I can actually show that the popular ideas of heaven and hell are not biblical... so can provide proof that "heaven" and "hell" do not exist in the bible -INASMUCH AS heaven is thought to be our eternal reward elsewhere where we go when we die and hell a punishment with no possible end where we go when we die.

First, it is important to to note that there are three heavens mentioned in the bible -and three things associated with the word "hell".

The first heaven is the Earth's atmosphere/the sky. the second the entire universe/space and the third is the present specific place of the seat of God's throne.
2 Corinthians 12:2-4 "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter."

As far as hell is concerned, there is Hades/Sheol -which is essentially the grave -the state of death and basically a hole in the ground -such as when Lazarus was raised.
Then there is Tartaros, which is the present state of restraint of the sinning angels.
Finally, there is Gehenna -the "lake of fire".

According to scripture.... ALL WHO HAVE DIED EXCEPT CHRIST ARE NOW STILL DEAD. They are not in heaven -and none have been cast into hell.
The dead in Christ are not raised until his return, the living in Christ are caught up with them into the air (but will then reign on Earth under Christ -not in/from heaven) -and all else will not be raised until after the thousand years which follow.
1 Thes 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
Rev:20:4 (last part) .......and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
Rev 5:10And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”

So... the dead will be resurrected from "hell" -as in the grave.

Some believe the following to mean the spirits of dead people, but it refers to the sinning angels in "prison"/Tartaros.
1 Pet 3:19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient...
As in..... Jude 1:6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
(Even here, "everlasting" is qualified with "unto the judgment" -essentially "permanent...until".)

Then there is Gehenna/the lake of fire. It is written that God is ABLE to destroy both body and spirit in Gehenna, but it also makes clear elsewhere that it is not what he INTENDS TO DO or WILL DO there.

NONE have been cast there yet. The first to be cast there will be the beast and false prophet at the return of Christ.
Rev 19:20"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Even Satan is not cast there until the thousand years is finished. He is thrown into a "bottomless pit" for a thousand years until loosed a short time -then cast into Gehenna.
Rev 20:10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(It does say forever and ever -but remember that such things as "everlasting", etc. CAN be UNTIL this or that.)

No other humans will be cast there until after the thousand years -at the judgment.
However... not ALL in the judgment will be cast there -only those whose works were not good. They are judged according to works -not specific beliefs or religious practices.
Those whose works were good will receive eternal life then!
Those whose works were not good will "have their part" in the lake of fire.

Of those who are cast into the lake of fire it is written....
1 Cor 3:13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

So... though it is called the "second death", experiencing the lake of fire need not be absolutely never-ending. It is part of a purification for those who did not respond to anything else.

FURTHRMORE... DEATH and the GRAVE are cast into/destroyed by the fire!

The language is tricky in the following because the above is written first, but remember that those in the fire are saved by it.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

There is much more to explain, but this should suffice for now.

Your faith and knowledge of the bible does you proud, your interpretation and opinion have little to do with the spirit of the thread.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
I think you have the wrong idea of a singularity and there are more hypothesis (note that word) of how the universe formed (i know 28)

If you're not sure if I have the right or wrong idea of the Big Bang Singularity, then why comment.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Every particle of mass in the universe leaves an imprint in spacetime. Yet, we as people of limited senses and understanding can be sure that our conscious mind leaves behind no trace of existence?

...I wouldn't be so confident in that.

Tell me what you got that contracts contradicts physics and medicine

Edit-Oops, contradicts
 
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