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Jesus is not God

IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
PearlSeeker said:
Remember when people demanded a king like other nations. What did God say to Samuel?

They have not rejected you; they have rejected me as their king.
​
What will be the promised land, God's people and Jerusalem?

For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing And her people for gladness. ​
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It is very interesting to note that not a word is spoken about the messiah until Israel decided to have a King. Until then, it could have gone either way. Had we decided not to have a King, there would be no messiah.

The "new heavens and new earth" that your verse mentions is for the end of days. It is NOT the land promised as part of the covenant. The promised land is the land of Canaan that God gave to Abraham and his descendants through Isaac and Jacob. It has belonged to Jews since that day, and always will. Whether we live there or not.
 
PearlSeeker

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
It is very interesting to note that not a word is spoken about the messiah until Israel decided to have a King. Until then, it could have gone either way. Had we decided not to have a King, there would be no messiah.

The "new heavens and new earth" that your verse mentions is for the end of days. It is NOT the land promised as part of the covenant. The promised land is the land of Canaan that God gave to Abraham and his descendants through Isaac and Jacob. It has belonged to Jews since that day, and always will. Whether we live there or not.
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I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. (Devarim)

There is also a new covenant...
 
A

Alone

Banned by request
Maybe this is why somebody coined the phrase "Trinity" one word to sum up what appears to be a very very hard topic not only to prove but to understand. On another note the son of God did say in regards to the end times prophecy that no one knows when or the time that he shall come, but the Father only, that implies a distinction between the two but doesn't necessarily say whether he is or is not God himself? I have contemplated the thought "that if you have seen me you have seen the Father" being the idea of the spiritual realm where the miracles take place, you would see the actual power of God but not necessarily the form of God?
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
PearlSeeker said:
I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. (Devarim)

There is also a new covenant...
Click to expand...
Yes. The prophet referred to is Joshua. The passage is not messianic.

The new covenant discussed in Jeremiah has not yet come to pass. For example, the laws are not yet written on our hearts--we have to teach our kids right from wrong. Also, everyone will know God. That hasn't happened yet either. There are still atheists.

Thus the "new covenant" that Christians speak of cannot possibly be the new covenant Jeremiah spoke of.
 
PearlSeeker

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
Yes. The prophet referred to is Joshua. The passage is not messianic.

The new covenant discussed in Jeremiah has not yet come to pass. For example, the laws are not yet written on our hearts--we have to teach our kids right from wrong. Also, everyone will know God. That hasn't happened yet either. There are still atheists.

Thus the "new covenant" that Christians speak of cannot possibly be the new covenant Jeremiah spoke of.
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Yes. The new covenant isn't concluded yet. John the Baptist and Jesus called to "prepare the way for the YHWH" because "kingdom is at hand". It's not like spring time but first flowers have already sprouted. That's why "the second coming" is anticipated.

Christians interpret the line in Devarim as messianic because of a line at the end of the same book:
And there has not arisen a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom the YHWH knew face to face.

And Joshua (although successsor of Moses) seems more an army leader than a prophet to me.
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
PearlSeeker said:
Yes. The new covenant isn't concluded yet. John the Baptist and Jesus called to "prepare the way for the YHWH" because "kingdom is at hand". It's not like spring time but first flowers have already sprouted. That's why "the second coming" is anticipated.

Christians interpret the line in Devarim as messianic because of a line at the end of the same book:
And there has not arisen a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom the YHWH knew face to face.

And Joshua (although successsor of Moses) seems more an army leader than a prophet to me.
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That is not how we view Joshua. In Judaism a prophet is the mouthpiece of Hashem. Joshua was that to Israel. Joshua and Samuel are prophetic books that are more historical in their manner of accounting.

I realize that Christians interpret the verse about the prophet as pertaining to the messiah, but it simply doesn't. Indeed, you don't have references to the messiah until Israel decides to have a king. Had Israel not elected to have a king, there would have been no messiah.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
PearlSeeker said:
Remember when people demanded a king like other nations. What did God say to Samuel?
They have not rejected you; they have rejected me as their king.​
What will be the promised land, God's people and Jerusalem?
For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing And her people for gladness.​
Click to expand...


I find the ' new earth ' will be a new earthly society for the humble meek to inherit the Earth. - 2 Peter 3:13
Also, since Pentecost a NEW Jerusalem as in 'heavenly Jerusalem above' now being the seat of government -Galatians 4:26.​
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
The Reverend Bob said:
Then why did they want to stone him for blasphemy after he said "I and my Father are one" if he just meant "Me and dad agree?" And now?
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1. Did they actually try to stone him? Maybe the writer of John heard it from someone but didnt happen. Maybe.
2. What if they thought he was claiming to be the messiah, they didnt agree and thought it was blasphemous. Jews till today believe its blasphemous to call Jesus or anyone the messiah.

Have you pondered?
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The Reverend Bob said:
Then why did they want to stone him for blasphemy after he said "I and my Father are one" if he just meant "Me and dad agree?" And now?
Click to expand...
It's the worst, most horrendous sort of self-exaltation to say that personally one is in complete agreement with God. All your opinions? Completely right? All your actions? Nary a sin?
 
PearlSeeker

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
Indeed, you don't have references to the messiah until Israel decides to have a king. Had Israel not elected to have a king, there would have been no messiah.
Click to expand...

Interesting. I thought about that again. When they decided to have an earthly king they abandoned God as their king. What is the role of the Messiah then? His mission is to bring people back to theocracy (first Israel). The difference with first theocracy is that there will not be a prophet as mediator anymore but all will directly know God and his will. So the messianic process will abolish human kingship and change the hearts. Kingship will be handed to God in all. Love and peace will flow naturally...

Hadn't they decided to have a king there would still be the need for the messianic process as described above just without abolishing the earthly kingship.
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
PearlSeeker said:
Interesting. I thought about that again. When they decided to have an earthly king they abandoned God as their king.
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Whoa there baby. We can't go on because we don't agree on this. Remember that God gave them the choice whether to have a king or not.
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Theo102 said:
You said: "Jews till today believe its blasphemous to call Jesus or anyone the messiah."

And yet in the Tanak King David is called a messiah.
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The Bible called many messiahs. That’s not “the messiah” yet to come in their theology brother.

Ask a Jew.
 
PearlSeeker

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
firedragon said:
2. What if they thought he was claiming to be the messiah, they didnt agree and thought it was blasphemous. Jews till today believe its blasphemous to call Jesus or anyone the messiah.
Click to expand...
Not at all. He could be the Messiah or at least a possible candidate.

"As the people were in expectation, and all were questioning in their hearts concerning John, whether he might be the Christ." (Luke 3:15)
​
When John died, Jesus was the next candidate. When Jesus died, they looked for the next. Those who supported Simon Bar Kokhba saw him as the Messiah.
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
PearlSeeker said:
Not at all. He could be the Messiah or at least a possible candidate.

"As the people were in expectation, and all were questioning in their hearts concerning John, whether he might be the Christ." (Luke 3:15)
​
When John died, Jesus was the next candidate. When Jesus died, they looked for the next. Those who supported Simon Bar Kokhba saw him as the Messiah.
Click to expand...

Haha. Brother. I believe he was the messiah.

obviously some Jews believed Jesus was the messiah. Obviously. Otherwise why would they follow him?

I am speaking about those who tried to stone him according to gospel according to John. Maybe they didn’t accept him as the messiah. That’s is also “obvious”.

hope you understand.
 
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