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Setting The Bible Reader Straight

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3rdAngel

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Skwim said:
If the mustard seed referred to is from the mustard tree Salvadora persica it hardly comes close to being "the smallest seed on earth." In fact, compared to the seed of the mustard herb from the genus Brassica it is quite large.

Whereas the mustard herb, Brassica Nigra has seeds that range in size from 1 to 2 mm, the mustard tree, Salvadora persica's seeds range from 3 to 5 mm.
Skwim said:
If the mustard seed referred to is from the mustard tree Salvadora persica it hardly comes close to being "the smallest seed on earth." In fact, compared to the seed of the mustard herb from the genus Brassica it is quite large.

Whereas the mustard herb, Brassica Nigra has seeds that range in size from 1 to 2 mm, the mustard tree, Salvadora persica's seeds range from 3 to 5 mm.

​
So if Jesus point was really one of comparison he would have been better off to use the seeds of the mustard herb Brassica Nigra rather than that of the mustard tree Salvadora persica. Both plants being native to Israel.
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So if Jesus point was really one of comparison he would have been better off to use the seeds of the mustard herb Brassica Nigra rather than that of the mustard tree Salvadora persica. Both plants being native to Israel.
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Are you reading the post you are quoting from? I do not think your getting it. Matthew 13:31-32 is in relation to a parable and faith and says...

Matthew 13:31-32 [31], Another parable put he forth to them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: [32], Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Jesus was not giving a technical discussion on horticulture comparing all seeds and trees of the earth. The next thing I am sure you will start saying is that the Kingdom of Heaven is a mustard seed because it says; "The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed.."

Fact is my friend it is a parable showing how faith can grow. That being said the size of the mustard seed is in relation to what it becomes - a tree that the birds of the field can nest in. Jesus used the smallest seed familiar to a native people and farmers in that region —a small seed that unlike an orchid seed grows to have “big branches that the birds in the air can perch in”—to illustrate that the kingdom of God began in obscurity but would one day “fill the earth” which is what we are seeing today.

Fun technical fact, my friend for this parable the mustard tree was indeed one of the smallest seeds known and used in Israel and for it's size that turned into one of the largest trees relative to the seeds size. I challenge you to show me a smaller seed that grows into a larger tree known in Israel in the days of JESUS that his listeners would be able to recognise and relate to? There is none. You may not like it but JESUS spoke the truth.

Hope this helps :)
 
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Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
PearlSeeker said:
An atheist said to a Christian: "There is no heaven."

Christian:"Why do you say so?"

Atheist: "If there was a heaven, it would have been 10 to 20 miles from Jerusalem."

Christian: "Where did you get this?"

Atheist: "I've read it in the Bible ofcourse."

Christian: "Really? Where?"

Atheist: "When Jesus was on the cross, he said to the other crucified criminal: Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

:D
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This is a rather idiotic strawman argument. It is not even funny as a joke. It would be as poor as if I made the argument:

Christian: I know that I will live forever because they nailed a Jew to a tree.

An apology on your part is in order.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
3rdAngel said:
YawwwnZ, sorry did you say something? Please wake me up when you want to discuss the posts and scriptures shared with you that show why you are in error. Until than your words do not really matter as they are simply your words denying God's Word so your argument is with God not me. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them. :)
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I will be happy to discuss them. But you have to at least try to be honest. Please don't confirm my claim that Christian apologists tend to be liars for Jesus. Your arguments so far have been far worse than the ones that you are complaining about.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
3rdAngel said:
Are you reading the post you are quoting from? I do not think your getting it. Matthew 13:31-32 is in relation to a parable and faith and says...

Matthew 13:31-32 [31], Another parable put he forth to them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: [32], Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Jesus was not giving a technical discussion on horticulture comparing all seeds and trees of the earth. The next thing I am sure you will start saying is that the Kingdom of Heaven is a mustard seed because it says; "The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed.."

Fact is my friend it is a parable showing how faith can grow. That being said the size of the mustard seed is in relation to what it becomes - a tree that the birds of the field can nest in. Jesus used the smallest seed familiar to a native people and farmers in that region —a small seed that unlike an orchid seed grows to have “big branches that the birds in the air can perch in”—to illustrate that the kingdom of God began in obscurity but would one day “fill the earth” which is what we are seeing today.

Fun technical fact, my friend for this parable the mustard tree was indeed one of the smallest seeds known and used in Israel and for it's size that turned into one of the largest trees relative to the seeds size. I challenge you to show me a smaller seed that grows into a larger tree known in Israel in the days of JESUS that his listeners would be able to recognise and relate to? There is none. You may not like it but JESUS spoke the truth.

Hope this helps :)
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This is quite the stretch on your part.

So if Jesus says something that is obviously wrong it is a parable. Or a figure of speech. So then you are saying it was a figure of speech when he said "As in the days of Noah . . ." . Right?
 
3rdAngel

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone said:
I will be happy to discuss them. But you have to at least try to be honest. Please don't confirm my claim that Christian apologists tend to be liars for Jesus. Your arguments so far have been far worse than the ones that you are complaining about.
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Not really. I have been honest with you. I have only presented the scriptures that you have provided showing that your interpretation of them is in error and have shown why they are in error by providing context and Hebrew or Greek word meanings. Rather than addressing the content of the posts and scriptures that have been provided in them that show why your intepretation of the scriptures are in error, you seek to belittle and name call and ignore the content of the posts you are quoting from. As posted in the last post to you, I am happy to continue a dicussion that is based on the content of the post and not personal attacks on the poster. That is simply a distraction on your behalf.
 
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3rdAngel

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone said:
This is quite the stretch on your part.

So if Jesus says something that is obviously wrong it is a parable. Or a figure of speech. So then you are saying it was a figure of speech when he said "As in the days of Noah . . ." . Right?
Click to expand...
Your post here is a good example of what I was talking about in the previous post about you ignoring the post content that you are quoting from. Rather than addressing the content of the post and the scriptures in them that show why a claim is in error you simply ignore the content of the post as if it is not there and claim the post is quite a stretch but you are not able to say why but simply provide your opinion over evidence. That only shows you have no argument and are not willing to discuss the content of the post provided that shows why you are in error.
 
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Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
3rdAngel said:
Not really. I have been honest with you. I have only presented the scriptures that you have provided showing that your interpretation of them is in error and have shown why they are in error by providing context and Hebrew or Greek word meanings. Rather than addressing the content of the posts and scriptures that have been provided in them that show why your intepretation of the scriptures are in error, you seek to belittle and name call. As posted in the last post to you, I am happy to continue a dicussion that is based on the content of the post and not personal attacks on the poster. That is simply a distraction on your behalf.
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If a person cannot be honest with himself he really cannot be honest with others. And no, let's not use falsehoods. You failed in your claims.

But let's use a clearer example. Isaiah 40 22 is a verse that clearly describes the Earth as flat, especially if you go to the Hebrew. The word used translates as an inscribed circle. As with a compass.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
3rdAngel said:
See what I mean? Your post here is a good example of what I was talking about in the previous post about you ignoring the post content that you are quoting from. Rather than addressing the content of the post and the scriptures in them that show why a claim is in error you simply ignore the content of the post as if it is not there and claim the post is quite a stretch but you are not able to say why but simply provide your opinion over evidence. That only shows you have no argument and are not willing to discuss the content of the post provided that shows why you are in error.
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Your content was addressed. Your post was a huge stretch. Then you dodged a serious question. That is not honest in a debate.

Try again.
 
3rdAngel

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone said:
Your content was addressed. Your post was a huge stretch. Then you dodged a serious question. That is not honest in a debate.

Try again.
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Naa that is what we call hand waiving and your correct it is not honest of you. You claim now that I dodged a question? Now, what question would that be? Perhaps I missed it. As far as I know everything has been addressed in the previous posts and scriptures provided that you and your friend have ignored.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
3rdAngel said:
Naa that is what we call hand waiving and your correct it is not honest of you. You claim now that I dodged a question? Now, what question would that be? Perhaps I missed it. As far as I know everything has been addressed in the previous posts and scriptures provided that you and your friend have ignored.
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No, that was not hand waving. It was a valid critique of a poor argument.

The question was quite clear. I was trying to see if you are being consistent in your arguments. Was Jesus using a literary tool when he said "As it was in the days of Noah . . ." . After all we all know that the Noah's Ark story is a myth.
 
3rdAngel

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone said:
If a person cannot be honest with himself he really cannot be honest with others. And no, let's not use falsehoods. You failed in your claims.

But let's use a clearer example. Isaiah 40 22 is a verse that clearly describes the Earth as flat, especially if you go to the Hebrew. The word used translates as an inscribed circle. As with a compass.
Click to expand...

Nonsense it is you that has failed in your claims because you do not know the scriptures and your interpretation of them is at fault. This has been shown to you gain and again but you do not believe what is being shared with you because you do not believe in God.

For example you claim that Isaiah 40:22 is saying that the earth is flat. Let's look at the scriptures and also add some context...

ISAIAH 40:17-25
[17], All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
[18], To whom then will you liken God? or what likeness will you compare to him?
[19], The workman melts a graven image, and the goldsmith spreads it over with gold, and casts silver chains.
[20], He that is so impoverished that he has no oblation chooses a tree that will not rot; he seeks to him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.
[21], Have you not known? have you not heard? has it not been told you from the beginning? have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
[22], It is he that sits on the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretches out the heavens as a curtain, and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in:
[23], That brings the princes to nothing; he makes the judges of the earth as vanity.
[24], Yes, they shall not be planted; yes, they shall not be sown: yes, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow on them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.
[25], To whom then will you liken me, or shall I be equal? said the Holy One.

Now please show me what scripture here says that the earth is flat... ZZzz. Yep Zilch! None. You have to read that interpretation into the scripture which means it is your words and not God's.

Hope this helps :)
 
3rdAngel

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone said:
No, that was not hand waving. It was a valid critique of a poor argument.

The question was quite clear. I was trying to see if you are being consistent in your arguments. Was Jesus using a literary tool when he said "As it was in the days of Noah . . ." . After all we all know that the Noah's Ark story is a myth.
Click to expand...

If JESUS states in Matthew 13 that he is talking about a Parable about faith and states it is a parable we know it is a parable right which means not necessarily literal. Does he start Matthew 24 in relation to those who were destroyed by a flood in the days of Noah in conection to the 2nd coming as a parable? If he does not call it a parable than why would you think it is not literally what will happen at the second coming? Does this prophecy not worry you? It should. I am sure everyone was mocking Noah up until the floods came and the doors were shut. At this time it was too late for those who wanted to enter in.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
3rdAngel said:
Nonsense it is you that has failed in your claims because you do not know the scriptures and your interpretation of them is at fault. This has been shown to you gain and again but you do not believe what is being shared with you because you do not believe in God.

For example you claim that Isaiah 40:22 is saying that the earth is flat. Let's look at the scriptures and also add some context...

ISAIAH 40:17-25
[17], All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
[18], To whom then will you liken God? or what likeness will you compare to him?
[19], The workman melts a graven image, and the goldsmith spreads it over with gold, and casts silver chains.
[20], He that is so impoverished that he has no oblation chooses a tree that will not rot; he seeks to him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.
[21], Have you not known? have you not heard? has it not been told you from the beginning? have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
[22], It is he that sits on the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretches out the heavens as a curtain, and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in:
[23], That brings the princes to nothing; he makes the judges of the earth as vanity.
[24], Yes, they shall not be planted; yes, they shall not be sown: yes, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow on them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.
[25], To whom then will you liken me, or shall I be equal? said the Holy One.

Now please show me what scripture here says that the earth is flat... ZZzz. Yep Zilch! None. You have to read that interpretation into the scripture which means it is your words and not God's.

Hope this helps :)
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Again your posts tell us that you failed geometry. A circle is flat. If one goes to the Hebrew word used an inscribed ciecle, one made with a compass, can only be a flat two dimensional circle. The fuller context does not help your claim at all. You complain about "belittling" and then display an inability to follow the discussion and make a rather weak personal attack of your own.

I suggest that you remove the beam from your eye.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
3rdAngel said:
If JESUS states in Matthew 13 that he is talking about a Parable about faith and states it is a parable we know it is a parable right which means not necessarily literal. Does he start Matthew 24 in relation to those who were destroyed by a flood in the days of Noah in conection to the 2nd coming as a parable? If he does not call it a parable than why would you think it is not literally what will happen at the second coming? Does this prophecy not worry you? It should.
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Oh my. You just admitted that Jesus was not divine. I know that you missed it, but others will see it.

And no. Biblical prophecy should not scare anyone due to its history of failure.
 
3rdAngel

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone said:
Again your posts tell us that you failed geometry. A circle is flat. If one goes to the Hebrew word used an inscribed ciecle, one made with a compass, can only be a flat two dimensional circle. The fuller context does not help your claim at all. You complain about "belittling" and then display an inability to follow the discussion and make a rather weak personal attack of your own.

I suggest that you remove the beam from your eye.
Click to expand...

Not at all. It only tells me that you failed History and do not know what the scriptures say and your not being honest. I asked you a question after providing context to the scripture you cherry picked in isolation of context. It does not say what you are claiming it says. So where is the scripture in all the context that was provided to you that says that the earth is flat? - Still waiting... If you cannot show me the scripture that you claim says the earth is flat why are you pretending the scriptures are saying things that they do not say? - This only shows your not being honest here.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
3rdAngel said:
Sure it was hand waiving your your behalf, you simply ignored the content of the post and did not address anything in it. You do not have to if you do not want to just say so. No one is forcing you to if you do not want to.
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I did not ignore the context. The context makes no difference. You failed to show that the context made a difference.
 
PearlSeeker

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
PearlSeeker said:
An atheist said to a Christian: "There is no heaven."

Christian:"Why do you say so?"

Atheist: "If there was a heaven, it would have been 10 to 20 miles from Jerusalem."

Christian: "Where did you get this?"

Atheist: "I've read it in the Bible ofcourse."

Christian: "Really? Where?"

Atheist: "When Jesus was on the cross, he said to the other crucified criminal: Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

:D
Subduction Zone said:
This is a rather idiotic strawman argument. It is not even funny as a joke. It would be as poor as if I made the argument:

Christian: I know that I will live forever because they nailed a Jew to a tree.

An apology on your part is in order.
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Sorry. Nothing personal. Take it or leave it.
 
3rdAngel

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
3rdAngel said: ↑ If JESUS states in Matthew 13 that he is talking about a Parable about faith and states it is a parable we know it is a parable right which means not necessarily literal. Does he start Matthew 24 in relation to those who were destroyed by a flood in the days of Noah in conection to the 2nd coming as a parable? If he does not call it a parable than why would you think it is not literally what will happen at the second coming? Does this prophecy not worry you? It should.
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Your response...
Subduction Zone said:
Oh my. You just admitted that Jesus was not divine. I know that you missed it, but others will see it. And no. Biblical prophecy should not scare anyone due to its history of failure.
Click to expand...

Nonsense. Let me know when you want to discuss the content of the post you are quoting from. Your just simply hand waiving again and making things up that have no truth in them. I thought you wanted an honest conversation? Seems you do not.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
3rdAngel said:
Not at all. It only tells me that you failed History and do not know what the scriptures say and your not being honest. I asked you a question after providing context to the scripture you cherry picked in isolation of context. It does not say what you are claiming it says. So where is the scripture in all the context that was provided to you that says that the earth is flat? - Still waiting... If you cannot show me the scripture that you claim says the earth is flat why are you pretending the scriptures are saying things that they do not say? - This only shows your not being honest here.
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Seriously, circles are flat. There is no "circle of the Earth" because it is not flat. Using that term implies a flat Earth.
 
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