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Would an abrahamic believer pick up a book with "witchcraft" as its title?

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
To tell you honestly, I don't know what witchcraft is.

''Witchcraft" is any use of supernatural power that is not from God. Its that simple. Incantations....casting of spells....summoning spirits.....evil (or even good) intent towards another using these things....it's all wrong. Regardless of the intent or the practice, we are told in the Bible to avoid all contact with spiritism. For Bible believers, that is not negotiable.

Everything we do and believe is part of the natural world whether it's external or internal (beliefs included). So, when someone says "I am closing my eyes, praying, while soaking salt in a glass with the symbol of the cross to satan that this person will have a happy ending" what does that really mean?

It means that they have made a choice to ignore God's warning...and will do so at their own peril. As I said, regardless of how you justify such things or the intent behind them, spiritistic practices put one in contact with the only other source of uncanny power....the devil and his henchmen....who are master deceivers.

Like the word witchcraft, how do you derive any biblical fact from this if not solely based on content at face value?

It relies entirely on whether you follow the Bible's teachings as coming from the Creator, (who knows everything there is to know about everything).....or whether you wish to justify practicing some form(s) of spiritism for your own reasons....at the end of the day, because you have not listened to his warnings, God will show you what he thinks of them. He would rather you listen.....because if you attach yourself to something that God says he is going to destroy, you will go down with it. He gives you the option to separate yourself from it....but it has to be your choice. If the first humans had just done as they were told instead of being fooled into believing that God had sinister motives......we would not be in this mess. God has never had a sinister motive in his life. If people really knew him, they would realize this. He is the epitome of love....and sometimes love has to be tough in order to benefit the ones who put in the effort to try harder. That is why God's cardinal quality of Love has to be tempered with his other three dominant qualities.....justice, wisdom and power.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
''Witchcraft" is any use of supernatural power that is not from God. Its that simple. Incantations....casting of spells....summoning spirits.....evil (or even good) intent towards another using these things....it's all wrong. Regardless of the intent or the practice, we are told in the Bible to avoid all contact with spiritism. For Bible believers, that is not negotiable.

1. What is your version of it?

2. Is it like the example I gave (another): Someone going to a table, putting three pencils on its face, saying "Thank you" and waving their hands?

3. Or talking out loud and mentioning a loved one in front of a mirror?

4. While these may be well meaning to the person doing these things, do you think because of their seriousness to these actions that it makes it real (therefore a sin)?

5. Or is there something else that makes the mundane (picking up a stick to write ABCs) to the "spiritual" (picking up a stick to write loved ones names Ann, Bob, and Cal)?

I'm trying to figure how both the practitioner and you see these things as real insofar the former in prayer to god/creator and the latter says its a sin.

It means that they have made a choice to ignore God's warning...and will do so at their own peril. As I said, regardless of how you justify such things or the intent behind them, spiritistic practices put one in contact with the only other source of uncanny power....the devil and his henchmen....who are master deceivers.

How so?

1. Can you name an example of what they do that is real rather than saying words and moving objects in a well-meaning way?

2. There's got to be a way to tell the difference between real and fake without taking the person doing the act at face value?

It relies entirely on whether you follow the Bible's teachings as coming from the Creator, (who knows everything there is to know about everything).....or whether you wish to justify practicing some form(s) of spiritism for your own reasons....at the end of the day, because you have not listened to his warnings, God will show you what he thinks of them. He would rather you listen.....

because if you attach yourself to something that God says he is going to destroy, you will go down with it. He gives you the option to separate yourself from it....but it has to be your choice. If the first humans had just done as they were told instead of being fooled into believing that God had sinister motives......we would not be in this mess. God has never had a sinister motive in his life. If people really knew him, they would realize this. He is the epitome of love....and sometimes love has to be tough in order to benefit the ones who put in the effort to try harder. That is why God's cardinal quality of Love has to be tempered with his other three dominant qualities.....justice, wisdom and power.

Well, it depends. If I believed in god (please don't let that deter you) and saw someone say they did magic, that wouldn't mean that they did. I don't take things at face value. That's why the question with the "witchcraft". Those words are being taken by face value.

1. How would you know if what they are doing is real or fake?

2. Surely, you don't take their word for it?
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
1. What is your version of it?

2. Is it like the example I gave (another): Someone going to a table, putting three pencils on its face, saying "Thank you" and waving their hands?

3. Or talking out loud and mentioning a loved one in front of a mirror?

4. While these may be well meaning to the person doing these things, do you think because of their seriousness to these actions that it makes it real (therefore a sin)?

5. Or is there something else that makes the mundane (picking up a stick to write ABCs) to the "spiritual" (picking up a stick to write loved ones names Ann, Bob, and Cal)?

I'm trying to figure how both the practitioner and you see these things as real insofar the former in prayer to god/creator and the latter says its a sin.



How so?

1. Can you name an example of what they do that is real rather than saying words and moving objects in a well-meaning way?

2. There's got to be a way to tell the difference between real and fake without taking the person doing the act at face value?



Well, it depends. If I believed in god (please don't let that deter you) and saw someone say they did magic, that wouldn't mean that they did. I don't take things at face value. That's why the question with the "witchcraft". Those words are being taken by face value.

1. How would you know if what they are doing is real or fake?

2. Surely, you don't take their word for it?
Seems to me you should ask how they would "know" if it was from their God or not...
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
1. What is your version of it?

My 'version' doesn't matter.....no version of spiritism is acceptable to the God of the Bible...it is totally acceptable to the pretend god of this world however. He masquerades as an angel of light, so that people will believe that spiritism is good and beneficial.

2. Is it like the example I gave (another): Someone going to a table, putting three pencils on its face, saying "Thank you" and waving their hands?

3. Or talking out loud and mentioning a loved one in front of a mirror?

4. While these may be well meaning to the person doing these things, do you think because of their seriousness to these actions that it makes it real (therefore a sin)?

5. Or is there something else that makes the mundane (picking up a stick to write ABCs) to the "spiritual" (picking up a stick to write loved ones names Ann, Bob, and Cal)?

I'm trying to figure how both the practitioner and you see these things as real insofar the former in prayer to god/creator and the latter says its a sin.

What part of "ALL" spiritistic practices did I fail to mention? It doesn't matter how you summon the spirits...they do not fail to take up an invitation. They will masquerade as you best friends....until you try to leave them. They won't go quietly.

1. Can you name an example of what they do that is real rather than saying words and moving objects in a well-meaning way?

Yes, one way they operate is through spirit mediums and they impersonate the dead to perpetuate the first lie told by the devil in Eden....that humans do not really die, but continue to live in the spirit realm and can communicate with the living. God never said that this was true. He forbade any attempt to contact the dead, which was common among the Canaanites.

Read Deuteronomy 18:9-12.

2. There's got to be a way to tell the difference between real and fake without taking the person doing the act at face value?

If you avoid all forms of spiritism, then you don't have to make that decision. They are all to be avoided. This also stops the fakes having a lend of you and parting you from your money.
Clairvoyants profess to tell you things that only your dead loved ones would know....but the demons know everything about everyone.....easily explained.

Well, it depends. If I believed in god (please don't let that deter you) and saw someone say they did magic, that wouldn't mean that they did. I don't take things at face value. That's why the question with the "witchcraft". Those words are being taken by face value.

1. How would you know if what they are doing is real or fake?

2. Surely, you don't take their word for it?

It doesn't matter if its real of fake.....its a form of deception either way. If you have nothing to do with it, you never have to worry. Seems logical to me.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
My 'version' doesn't matter.....no version of spiritism is acceptable to the God of the Bible...it is totally acceptable to the pretend god of this world however. He masquerades as an angel of light, so that people will believe that spiritism is good and beneficial.

Where does the Holy Spirit fit in then?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
It doesn't matter if its real of fake.....its a form of deception either way. If you have nothing to do with it, you never have to worry. Seems logical to me.

How would you know to form an opinion against it?

With the example I gave (another): waving your hands up, saying thank you couch, and praying over it so it can be comfortable for the next person who sits there.

I know it sounds ridiculous. If it's fake (like in the movies, for example or magic stage show), how can you form a religious opinion against it as if the fake-magic is somehow a sin to the bible?

Just in general if you get my line of thinking?

My 'version' doesn't matter.....no version of spiritism is acceptable to the God of the Bible...it is totally acceptable to the pretend god of this world however. He masquerades as an angel of light, so that people will believe that spiritism is good and beneficial.

I didn't mention spiritualism (auto-edit) spiritism. I don't know how that came up though.

I'm asking specific about a person believing he prays to life a pencil with his mind and whether it is fake or not, it's still against the bible?

I'm sure some "magic" doesn't exist but in the creation and minds of the person doing the praying?

Are you against his imaginative idea?

What part of "ALL" spiritistic practices did I fail to mention? It doesn't matter how you summon the spirits...they do not fail to take up an invitation. They will masquerade as you best friends....until you try to leave them. They won't go quietly.

I'm not sure where you're going with spiritualism. I'm keeping it basic so you know the context. Words like spirit, witchcraft, etc throws you off what I'm saying. Trigger words.

Yes, one way they operate is through spirit mediums and they impersonate the dead to perpetuate the first lie told by the devil in Eden....that humans do not really die, but continue to live in the spirit realm and can communicate with the living. God never said that this was true. He forbade any attempt to contact the dead, which was common among the Canaanites.

But I'm not referring to mediums.

I am not saying that (spiritism), mediums, etc are not against the bible.

I'm asking about your line of thinking when it comes to fake and real magic in relation to scripture and your interpretation of it.

If I said thank you god by pointing a finger to the moon and twirl three times, that ritual, is that against scripture?

How did you come to that conclusion beyond face-value (aka the witchcraft/word example)?

If you avoid all forms of spiritism, then you don't have to make that decision. They are all to be avoided. This also stops the fakes having a lend of you and parting you from your money.
Clairvoyants profess to tell you things that only your dead loved ones would know....but the demons know everything about everyone.....easily explained.

Take out spiritism. I'm not talking about spirits and the deceased.

I'm literally asking why and how is something like stage-magic against the bible?

You said it doesn't matter if it's fake. So, if it's fake what exactly is the bible speaking against?

The rabbit out of the hat?
Using a wond?

That, and if the magician told you it was all an illusion, would you still believe that it's against scripture?

Why?

(Can't sum up my questions but it's not talking about spiritism and mediums. Trying to figure how that came up in my questions)
 
Last edited:

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
''Witchcraft" is any use of supernatural power that is not from God. Its that simple. Incantations....casting of spells....summoning spirits.....evil (or even good) intent towards another using these things....it's all wrong. Regardless of the intent or the practice, we are told in the Bible to avoid all contact with spiritism. For Bible believers, that is not negotiable.

It means that they have made a choice to ignore God's warning...and will do so at their own peril. As I said, regardless of how you justify such things or the intent behind them, spiritistic practices put one in contact with the only other source of uncanny power....the devil and his henchmen....who are master deceivers.

It relies entirely on whether you follow the Bible's teachings as coming from the Creator, (who knows everything there is to know about everything).....or whether you wish to justify practicing some form(s) of spiritism for your own reasons....at the end of the day, because you have not listened to his warnings, God will show you what he thinks of them. He would rather you listen.....because if you attach yourself to something that God says he is going to destroy, you will go down with it. He gives you the option to separate yourself from it....but it has to be your choice. If the first humans had just done as they were told instead of being fooled into believing that God had sinister motives......we would not be in this mess. God has never had a sinister motive in his life. If people really knew him, they would realize this. He is the epitome of love....and sometimes love has to be tough in order to benefit the ones who put in the effort to try harder. That is why God's cardinal quality of Love has to be tempered with his other three dominant qualities.....justice, wisdom and power.

This is nonsense. Here is why. The devil is a lousy ex-angel, and has no power outside of God.

The problem with witchcraft is that it convinces you that there is something other than God's power. That there is a Rival Power. It reinforces an illusion. In other words, the real problem with witchcraft is you take it seriously. Nobody can have power over you, but you and God.

I recommend anyone afraid of witchcraft to instead study faith healing, meditation, dowsing, and exorcism. These are ways that you can behave as a conduit to God's own power, instead of tricking yourself into believing in ritualized power. These other things simply fool the mind into belief in things that are not true. Waving objects around isn't real, real power is from faith and a good heart.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Where does the Holy Spirit fit in then?

God's spirit is never around where spiritism is practiced.

The holy spirit operates on those who are obedient to God's laws. It can also help you break free from demon harassment.

JW don't believe in the holy spirit. God the father and christ savior but neither are each other.

What??? Who told you that? God's spirit is his power exercised at his will and discretion. It is what he used to create the universe. Read Genesis 1:1-2.

Just because we reject the trinity doesn't mean that the Father, son and holy spirit do not guide and direct our lives in their individual ways....these three are NOT one entity. The Father alone is God....his son is a created being, sent to offer his life for us....and the holy spirit is what God sends to accomplish his will. It is not a person, but a powerful force.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
God's spirit is never around where spiritism is practiced.

The holy spirit operates on those who are obedient to God's laws. It can also help you break free from demon harassment.



What??? Who told you that? God's spirit is his power exercised at his will and discretion. It is what he used to create the universe. Read Genesis 1:1-2.

Just because we reject the trinity doesn't mean that the Father, son and holy spirit do not guide and direct our lives in their individual ways....these three are NOT one entity. The Father alone is God....his son is a created being, sent to offer his life for us....and the holy spirit is what God sends to accomplish his will. It is not a person, but a powerful force.

It was proven by JW that god isn't the holy spirit. They (another site) gave me so much scripture about the spirit (an actual spirit) that is god itself. That's the term holy spirit from trinitarians. It's an actual spirit (that's holy) which comes from god/as god/is god.

Holy spirit in trinitarian isn't referred to as a force or breathe of life but an actual person/being that comes from god in the form of love and an embodiment of christ.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Just because we reject the trinity doesn't mean that the Father, son and holy spirit do not guide and direct our lives in their individual ways....these three are NOT one entity. The Father alone is God....his son is a created being, sent to offer his life for us....and the holy spirit is what God sends to accomplish his will. It is not a person, but a powerful force.

Yes. Trinitarians believe the holy spirit is an entity and is god/from god/as god. So when you say holy spirit, it doesn't mean force or breathe as in JW website but as an actual entity.

You guys have two separate definitions for the same word.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
It was proven by JW that god isn't the holy spirit. They (another site) gave me so much scripture about the spirit (an actual spirit) that is god itself. That's the term holy spirit from trinitarians. It's an actual spirit (that's holy) which comes from god/as god/is god.

Holy spirit in trinitarian isn't referred to as a force or breathe of life but an actual person/being that comes from god in the form of love and an embodiment of christ.


Ironically there are two cases of paraclete in the New Testament. One being the holy Spirit and on being Jesus... Jesus clearly being a person and even a paraclete was a greek person who is like a family helper

I feel the JW claim of paraclete being an it, a force merely, just doesn't fit the scriptures
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Ironically there are two cases of paraclete in the New Testament. One being the holy Spirit and on being Jesus... Jesus clearly being a person and even a paraclete was a greek person who is like a family helper

I feel the JW claim of paraclete being an it, a force merely, just doesn't fit the scriptures

I read the holy spirit came from christ in the Pentecost.

I side with JW on the spirit thing. I'm sure god didn't come down in genesis and start talking to people as an entity?
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
God's spirit is never around where spiritism is practiced.
The holy spirit operates on those who are obedient to God's laws. It can also help you break free from demon harassment.
um...
Please define spirit.

I do not understand the difference.
Gods "spirit" is still a spirit, right?

I suspect I am missing something...

and the holy spirit is what God sends to accomplish his will. It is not a person, but a powerful force.
This helps, but I am still confused as to the difference between the Holy Spirit and spirits otherwise.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The problem with witchcraft is that it convinces you that there is something other than God's power. That there is a Rival Power. It reinforces an illusion. In other words, the real problem with witchcraft is you take it seriously. Nobody can have power over you, but you and God.

Not recognizing the devil's power is just as dangerous. How can you guard against a power that you don't believe exists? (1 John 5:19) He is not more powerful than God...but he is way more powerful than us....especially if we are without God.

I recommend anyone afraid of witchcraft to instead study faith healing, meditation, dowsing, and exorcism.

Oh dear...I recommend that anyone dabbling in these things be aware that they are also practiced by the devil in today's world. Its how he is able to perform "powerful works" and fool people into believing that they come from God. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-10) There were to be no miracles in the end times. "Powerful works" are proof of nothing. (Matthew 7:21-23)

These are ways that you can behave as a conduit to God's own power, instead of tricking yourself into believing in ritualized power. These other things simply fool the mind into belief in things that are not true. Waving objects around isn't real, real power is from faith and a good heart.

The only part of that with a ring of truth is the last part of the last sentence. The devil is a trickster all right....the trouble is he masquerades as "an angel of light"....(2 Corinthians 11:14-15) If you don't believe in his power to deceive...he already has you.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
um...
Please define spirit.

The Hebrew word ruʹach and the Greek word pneuʹma, are often translated “spirit”.
They have a number of meanings. All of them refer to that which is invisible to human sight and gives evidence of force in motion. These Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to...

1) the wind, invisible, but seen in its effect on trees, clouds, etc.

2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (what God put into the nostrils of Adam when he was created and that which animates all living breathing things.)

3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and causes him to say and do things in a certain way (a person or animal who is said to be spirited)

4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (Like the teachings of Jesus, or prophesies outlining future events given to God's prophets)

5) spirit persons, (Angels and demons)

6) God’s active force, or holy spirit. (the force behind creation itself.)

I do not understand the difference.
Gods "spirit" is still a spirit, right?

As described above, "spirit" has a broad range of meanings. God is a spirit (as in, he is not a tangible visible Being)
But his holy spirit is what he uses to accomplish his will. He apportions it out as is necessary to empower humans to carry out his will. Jesus received holy spirit at his baptism.

I suspect I am missing something...

I suspect it is a Bible study....
character0248.gif


This helps, but I am still confused as to the difference between the Holy Spirit and spirits otherwise.

It depends on the context as to which "spirit" the text is referring to. One thing is certain...all reference to spirit in the Bible is that which is invisible to human sight and gives evidence of force in motion.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
The Hebrew word ruʹach and the Greek word pneuʹma, are often translated “spirit”.
They have a number of meanings. All of them refer to that which is invisible to human sight and gives evidence of force in motion. These Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to...

1) the wind, invisible, but seen in its effect on trees, clouds, etc.

2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (what God put into the nostrils of Adam when he was created and that which animates all living breathing things.)

3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and causes him to say and do things in a certain way (a person or animal who is said to be spirited)

4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (Like the teachings of Jesus, or prophesies outlining future events given to God's prophets)

5) spirit persons, (Angels and demons)

6) God’s active force, or holy spirit. (the force behind creation itself.)



As described above, "spirit" has a broad range of meanings. God is a spirit (as in, he is not a tangible visible Being)
But his holy spirit is what he uses to accomplish his will. He apportions it out as is necessary to empower humans to carry out his will. Jesus received holy spirit at his baptism.



I suspect it is a Bible study....
character0248.gif




It depends on the context as to which "spirit" the text is referring to. One thing is certain...all reference to spirit in the Bible is that which is invisible to human sight and gives evidence of force in motion.
Thank you for the explanation.
 
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